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super bee flameouts

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Old 07-12-2009, 02:39 AM
  #1
hyperdyne
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Default super bee flameouts

Ok, I fixed my air bubble issue with the UAT. Everything works great now. I refilled my tanks and primed the UAT to get a good fuel flow.

But now I am seeing some other issues with decisive throttle movement. Large throttle changes end up with consistent flameouts. I can gradually raise throttle and everything is great. Idle to mid throttle is good but sometimes flames out if done too fast. Idle to full throttle quickly always flames out.

Lots of blue flame when this happens, as if the ICS is dumping more fuel in the chamber to compensate for needed thrust as it spools up. Is it normal to get flameouts like this? I cant quite figure out the issue. I can baby the throttle and things look and sound good.



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Old 07-12-2009, 08:00 AM
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Default RE: super bee flameouts

It is not normal. you should be able to move the throttle as fast as you can, and the engine should compensate. I bet Eric will come in and have some advice. Bob
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Old 07-12-2009, 05:49 PM
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Default RE: super bee flameouts

You should re-calibrate the pump. Basically, go from idle to full power very slowly, like 3 seconds per step. Allow it to stabilize at full power, then do the same going to idle.

also I assume your ECU parameters are as provided by the factory. If they were change (ECU is unlocked) then it may be just bacuase it has the wrong parameters.
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Old 07-13-2009, 12:03 PM
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Default RE: super bee flameouts

Eric is on his way back from KY jets. He will be back in the forum by tomorrow if not tonight when he gets back
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Old 07-13-2009, 01:04 PM
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hyperdyne
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Default RE: super bee flameouts

ok great, thanks.

I did do several slow throttle ups, not sure how long I have to stay at each setting for it to relearn. The turbine did come from CA, I wasnt the original owner. It only had 40 min of runtime on it.

I am using the mccoy #8 glow plug, I have the glow power set to 28 and gas setting to 15%. I can get it to power on reliably. It will idle great. It will ramp up great if you do it slow enough.

I am wondering if the altitude difference has an effect on the current ecu parameters. Is there any way to change the pump settings or it is all auto learned?

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Old 07-13-2009, 02:01 PM
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Default RE: super bee flameouts

Hyper,
The glow plug is only lit for startup, so it isn't a factor in your problem.

The motors are built and tested in Mexico City at high altitude, which is great for us in Colorado. It could be that the previous owner adjusted parameters for his lower altitude.
I'd offer to help, but I don't claim to be more than a newbie to jets.
Do I know you? Where do you fly?

Dan Underkofler
(Lafayette, co)
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Old 07-13-2009, 02:55 PM
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hyperdyne
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Default RE: super bee flameouts

Hi Dan,

The owner mentioned something about trying to change the pump values, not even sure how that is done as I dont see any screens on the HDT for that.

I havent flown her yet, just joined the Arvada club. In fact somebody gave me your name as a possible contact too! I was looking for someone local to help me out with questions and in getting a waiver. If you are up for any of that please let me know. I havent had much luck finding turbine mentors in these parts...

Regards,
Jim
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Old 07-13-2009, 08:14 PM
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Default RE: super bee flameouts

If your menu is unlocked...go under the run menu...then go to accel delay. Record this number as you will want to put it back if it does not change help.

Once there, increase the number say 5 points up. This will decrease the spool up time as it sounds like it had a fast spool up time set for sea level and at your alt. it will spool a bit slower. So you can change this number and see if that helps. If the menu is locked then i would contact Eric when he gets back.

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Old 07-13-2009, 11:33 PM
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hyperdyne
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Default RE: super bee flameouts

I didnt see any unlocked menus on the run screen last I looked. Basically all it gives me is max rpm IIRC.

Thanks for the help. I will look again at the menus and also wait for Eric to hopefully lend some sound advice.

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Old 07-14-2009, 11:46 AM
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Default RE: super bee flameouts

Hello:

This is Eric and I am back from a week in Kentucky. OK, now for your acceleration issue. Responders are for the most part on target with their thoughts. To further help, please provide the serial number of your turbine and the V # of the software in the ECU. Serial number should be the first screen you see when turning on the system. After ECU stabilizes, menu up and you will see the V # in the lower Right corner.

Assumption is made you have NO connections to fuel system which may be loose. All connections relating to fuel system should be on the corresponding nipple of fuel pump, UAT, fuel tank etc and wire tied for security. Fuel filter clean? Festo connections (line to be cut square) and inserted with a push and twist.

Will be back with more information when you respond.

Regards,
Eric
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Old 07-14-2009, 02:42 PM
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hyperdyne
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Default RE: super bee flameouts

Hi Eric,

Thanks for the response. The turbine serial # is: JF50-0194. The software version is: V.5.49

I have looked at the fuel lines, they are all pretty secure. I double checked the festos, all lines are square cut as needed. I added a twist to each one also.

Regards,
Jim
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Old 07-16-2009, 01:18 AM
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hyperdyne
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Default RE: super bee flameouts

I tried firing up the turbine again after re-checking all fuel lines. Same result, engine runs fine with small throttle changes but flames out with large throttle swings.

I even let the engine sit at each throttle position for 3 sec to see if the ECU would "re-learn". After that a quick throttle from idle to 1/2 power resulted in a flame out - repeated experiment with same result.

Tried setting the HDT throttle response to linear, half expo, and full expo just for completeness. Same result w/ a flameout.

I am just spitballing here, but it is almost like the engine is running rich (maybe that is how it runs at sea level?). At full throttle the exhaust kerosene smell is fairly noisome.

Any other ideas?


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Old 07-19-2009, 10:41 AM
  #13
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Default RE: super bee flameouts

Jim,

You issue sounds similar to a flameout that I had at Kentucky Jets. Juan was on-site and found that my Acceleration Delay was too short. Your example of being rich is basically what was happening. The fuel pump was pumping more fuel than the turbine could burn causing the flameout.

Just a thought.

Regards,
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Old 07-23-2009, 12:14 PM
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hyperdyne
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Default RE: super bee flameouts

After talking with Eric he unlocked my ECU so I could experiment with the accel delay. The factory setting was at 50. I found the range of 58-61 produced the most reliable operation (no flameouts) at my altitude. Is this too much of a change? Of course the spool up time was much greater as the accel delay was increased.

After upping the accel delay, I found a secondary problem. During large mixed throttle changes (idle to full to idle to half) also caused a flameout. I thought this might be due to the decel delay being too short (basically too much fuel left in the chamber causing a rich condition after decelerating). I bumped up the decel delay 3 pts (from 35 to 38) and it seemed to rectify the mixed throttle flameouts.

The last problem I have is going from idle to half/full throttle sometimes results in sputtering/rich condition where lots of blue flame is seen. The lag in spool up can be 5-6 sec easy (depends on how the ICU sees the condition and attempts to prevent a flameout). Now if I start at 1/4" throttle and go to 1/2 or full throttle this issue is much less observable. But it is prevalent in going from idle (55-65k rpm) up to some large throttle position.

I wanted to ask if this is normal? If not is there a way to mitigate this? From 1/2 to full throttle the engine is like a rocket and has no issues.

Thanks for any info.


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Old 07-25-2009, 08:30 PM
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Default RE: super bee flameouts

Hyperdyne:

From what you are now describing, the acceleration delay is set too fast. Increase the value of this parameter, 2pts at a time, try it then fine tune one point at a time until the turbine is happy. Remember, only work with one parameter at a time until you have resolved the issue. Changing accel / decel parameters is OK, but I suggest working with the acceleration delay parameter only.
I am between jet meets, but look forward to assisting any way I can.

Regards,
Eric
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Old 07-27-2009, 11:26 AM
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hyperdyne
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Default RE: super bee flameouts

ok, I can keep increasing accel delay. Reason I stopped is when I got to an accel delay of 61 I got a flameout. I figured at that point I bracketed the problem and looked for the minimum between delays of 55-61. If you think the turbine will get happier going above 61 I will try it. I figured I had hit the global minimum but maybe it was just a local min in the delay curve?

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Old 07-27-2009, 01:54 PM
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Default RE: super bee flameouts

Hyperdyne. . .Please know, if you are still having acceleration / flame out issues, feel free to pack up the pump, solenoid, ECU and turbine then send to me to bench test. Just out of curiosity, how old is your fuel? Is it totally free of water? Both will affect turbine performance.

Best regards,
Eric Clapp
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Old 07-27-2009, 03:39 PM
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hyperdyne
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Default RE: super bee flameouts

ok, I will do a couple more tests here by increasing the accel delay as you suggested. Is there some rule of thumb for max accel delay that one should set before declaring a case of diminishing returns? I dont really know when to stop and call it quits.

If none of this appears to rectify the issue I will most likely pack up the engine and peripherals for you to take a look at.

The fuel is fresh, only a week old. I am running 1-K kero with 2.5% of BP 2380 oil.

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Old 07-29-2009, 12:06 PM
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Default RE: super bee flameouts

Eric, I followed your advice and modified the accel delay parameter only 2 pts at a time. The turbine got smoother as this was increased. Some lower numbers (in the low 70's) resulted in better spool up time than higher numbers. Which is best to choose? I am up at accel delay=79 right now and am not sure if I should keep increasing it to see if things get better.

Right now I am not getting flameouts, but spool up time can be anywhere from 3-5 sec going from idle to full throttle. Is this normal? Any other information is greatly appreciated.

Jim

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Old 07-29-2009, 05:14 PM
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Default RE: super bee flameouts

The number is not as important as is the operation of the turbine. If the turbine is spooling up fine and you are getting spool up times as you indicated then I would test it as is. Your number is fine, as long as the turbine is spooling up fine and not flaming out you should be good to go. On one of my bees the spool up number is around 65 or 70 and my spool up time from idle to full is around 4 seconds.

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Old 07-29-2009, 07:05 PM
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hyperdyne
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Default RE: super bee flameouts

ok thanks. I was worried maybe I was going to hit some end point by increasing the accel delay - or incurring some major delay in spool up times.

Right now I am getting 3-5 seconds of spool up time from idle to full. I wasnt sure what was typical until now. From your numbers it sounds like I am right in the ballpark for the turbine spooling to full.

Thanks for the info.


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