mundo330

My Feedback: (3)

Has anyone herd of interference issues at large events like Joe Nall or IRCHA? I was told that Spectrum based systems had planes and Helicopters going in due to frequency issues left and right, and that these where directly caused by the DSM2 system and "it's shortfalls". Of coarse I herd this from two individuals that Fly and represent Futaba Radios. I have not seen a single item in print on this. Has anyone else?

chunkyplunker

Sounds like another "mine is better than yours", "Ford Vs. Chevy". I was at Joe Nall and didn't hear of any problems.

dougclind

I was at Joe Nall for 8 days. I wasn't on the main flight line constantly but I did see two notable, unexplained crashes when I was. One was an $8000 turbine jet. The guy flying it had had a good flight, made his gear pass over the runway, turned and was coming along his downwind leg. He lost all controls and the jet went down. Took him almost an hour to find the plane in the woods with help. I think he said he was able to salvage one of the landing gear! The thing is, I don't think he had a JR. I believe it was a Futaba transmitter.

The other was a 2 engine warbird, a P38 I think. I almost recall that the guy had a DX6i but I can't be sure. He was there with his wife and son. After about a minute or so his plane all of a sudden spiraled down and hit the trees about 150' away. Instant sawdust! I never saw anything disintegrate like that in my life. I thought it was one engine that failed but he swore up and down that both engines were working. He would have known better than I because I wasn't paying attention to his engine sounds. There were at least 4 other planes in the air at the time and I just happened to look over at the time the plane went down.

PacificNWSkyPilot

My Feedback: (19)

That's scuttlebutt for you. In fact, I heard from many sources that for an event that size, there were an extremely low number of crashes, period. Whatever the method applied to the 2.4 gHz technology, whatever the brand, it's doing what it was intended to do on a widespread basis, and that is to make our planes as bulletproof as possible.

Do some more research, there are videos of tests done that prove these are all excellent, viable technologies and they are almost identical in every way, including the point where they brown-out (both brown out at 3.0 volts exactly). Futaba browns out at the same voltage, the exact same time that Spectrum does. Spektrum reconnects noticeably quicker, but I should point out in the interest of fairness that we're talking about maybe a 1/4 of a second faster here. About as long as it took me to type the period at the end of the last sentence.

~ Jim ~

crazy8s

My Feedback: (21)

Jim,

If you are basing your statement of "Futaba and Spektrum brown out at the same 3.0 volts" on a video released by Horizon Hobby then I would suggest you take a look at this website http://www.rcmodelreviews.com/ and click on the story titled "Horizon Hobby's Futaba/Spektrum video" or somethng close to that title. It has some interesting information that I found enlightening.

Steve

PacificNWSkyPilot

My Feedback: (19)

Whatever "Spin" this guy is trying to put on it, they both stopped working at exactly the same time. And if the Futaba is working just fine, why does it not "Resume" the working of the servos until AFTER the Spektrum does? If the servos won't work at or below 3 volts, then WHY is the Futaba Better than the Spektrum? Because he SAYS it is? He hasn't presented any proof, he's just trying to make something of nothing.

1. Let him state that they didn't stop at the same time, WHATEVER the reasons. The plain fact is that they DID, at 3.0 volts, NOT Spektrum's stated 3.4 volts or Futaba's stated 2.6 Volts. Better than Spektrum advertised, worse than Futaba advertised.

2. Let him state that the Futaba servos resumed their movement BEFORE the Spektrum servo did, since (his statement) their RX was working fine the whole time. The plain fact is, they didn't. They came back on line and started working a significant period of time AFTER the Spektrum servo did. A quarter-second can crash a plane.

3. Low Voltage performance? There IS no low-voltage performance implied for either Futaba or Spektrum. Why would he even call it that? This test was done at battery levels that no responsible RC Modeler would dream of running a model at. The test was done for one reason; To show that the two systems are nearly identical in the very situation that Futaba lovers like to say Spektrums fail when theirs doesn't. The facts showed instead that Futaba "performed" not quite as well in this case.

4. It sounds like neither Futaba nor Horizon will supply him with systems, and with his penchant for exaggeration I doubt they ever will. I've read this guy's stuff before. I know who he is and he's spent years and years in self-promotion and publishing his own books, and with all of this he hasn't found the backing to expand this great venture of his, to tell the world what the truth is according to him. Why is that, I ask you to ponder? I'll leave it to other folks to decide why he'd rather rage on for many paragraphs than present some simple evidence to contradict the findings. Because he likes Futaba, he doesn't like Spektrum? That's a reason? I went to JR because my Futaba was taking hits all the time. I love JR and Spektrum. So do a hundred people to every Futaba out there. Am I exaggerating? I wrote it, it must be true, right? I've actually been told the percentage is 2 hundred JRs/Spektrums to every Futaba. Hmmmm, I guess it IS true.

5. That was a videotaped, REAL scientific experiment with known quantities and proven results. I know a real scientific experiment when I see one, and other than that excellent video which showed us the real truth, I've seen NOTHING else worth a moment's notice.

I guess some checking would be in order. What brands have been winning most at the TOC or Top Gun or IMAC or the Race circuits or the World meets? I mean, if this is a real Beach Boys song-type comparison, she's real fine my DX-9 or something like that (poetic license to rhyme), we might as well see who is taking the Big cups and the checkered flags. That's how JR took the market from Futaba in the first place in the 90's, if Futaba is that much better now ....as good as this guys says.... then we'll see the same sweeping results.

As a little side note, I just got back from my club meeting, one of the guys brought an old Futaba FG Gold radio still in the box, silver-stickered AM..... Boy, did THAT take me back! I remembered getting mine upgraded to gold stickered status, and still taking hits. That was the very last Futaba I ever had. Boy, I loved that radio. I was tempted to buy it and hang it on my wall for old times sake.

It also reminded me that I have lived and flown RC through times when ALL of us took a chance every time we flew. I could go on and on right now like that guy did. Suffice it to say, we are a spoiled lot these days and many, many of us KNOW better than to pick on any of these new radios, no matter what the brand. THESE are the radios we wished for in the backs of our minds, the radios that seemed unattainable, like something from Star Trek. Star Trek communicators were the inspiration for the Cell phones. Now they are cheap and plentiful, as are the very radios we wished for way back then.

Just my two cents, of course.

~ Jim ~

Zeeb

My Feedback: (41)

Well I'm convinced that the only solution to this issue of models crashing at large events or anywhere for that matter, is to go back to the 72MHz band. I mean after all, there were never any crashes with that technology so it MUST be the 2.4GHz radios causing the problem.....[sm=idea.gif]

Oh, wait a minute.... I saw a crash at our field the other day and that guy was running a 72MHz radio so maybe that solution won't work either. OR, maybe I should go find out what brand radio he was using and we can all speculate if it's only that brand of 72MHz radio which causes model crashes?

Maybe we should all go to the Ham band????? No.... saw one of those crash last week too.

Now what do we do?????? [sm=drowning.gif]

PacificNWSkyPilot

My Feedback: (19)

That's it....I think Zeeb should run this thread now...

His witty retorts are WAY better than mine... [8D]

When he's being wry, it comes across just perfect........

When I think I'm being wry I come across as evil and mean.....[:-]

~ Jim ~

OldFart1

That's it Jim - no more Shiners for breakfast

PacificNWSkyPilot

My Feedback: (19)

ROFLMAO!

~ Jim ~

Plane Insane

My Feedback: (4)

Trimming out all of the Chevy vs Ford / Futaba vs. JR fat in this thread... There is a legitimate shortcoming with DSM2 = there is a maximum number of available channels to fly on = I believe the number I've heard is 39-40 before individuals start losing the dual channel advantage.
I believe this was discussed by JR at Nall this year, especially considering 72mhz was removed and everyone had to be on a 2.4 system.
I fly a 12X and have never had a problem except at Nall last year during the T-28 swarm when we had a huge number of spectrum bound planes in the air.
Also last year, a good friend who came to Nall with us lost his 42% Slick 540 at the end of the main flight line. Post crash showed everything working. JR gave him a 12X as a consolation prize.
This year my brother lost his CompARF at Nall due to a lock-out. Post crash, everything worked fine.

There were a number of unexplained "lock-outs" at Nall this year by JR pilots.. I know at least a few of them are talking about it in various threads on Flying Giants and elsewhere.

The fact of the matter is there are limitations with DSM2. There's no way I'll be flying high dollar planes or helis at Nall again unless there is a transmitter impound or I get my hands on DSM-J.

dougclind

Well, there is one solution, especially for high dollar planes. I'm not sure but I think it's Eagle Tree that has on screen display (OSD) technology that records GPS info and if there's a loss of signal it flies the plane back to the lat/long of where it was launched. combined with copilot technology which keeps your plane flying level, it seems like you can ensure you won't lose your plane. I'm pretty sure I remember reading this a few months back and I'm planning on experimenting with this, just haven't had the time to get into it. Too much grass to mow and the wife keeps wanting to plant the garden.

Plane Insane

My Feedback: (4)

I have Eagle Tree's Seagull Pro and most of the assorted upgrades. I also have the ATTOPilot which could definitely handle the situation. With regard to Nall, no autopilots are allowed.
Most giant scale pilots are also pretty anal about keeping the weight down on the 3-D birds..

dougclind

That's interesting about the Nall. But if it were me, and it was my $10,000 airplane, I'd say, how are they gonna know what I got inside? I'd need a pretty darn good reason for not having an autopilot system, especially considering the fact that if a plane goes down out of control it could do some serious damage. And the number of unexplained crashes I saw at Joe Nall (3 including one of my own plus I keep hearing there were more) tells me that autopilot systems are absolutely needed.

PacificNWSkyPilot

My Feedback: (19)

That's funny, because I looked at the reports and they didn't even show 3. I think we should get some official reports from the Nall.

~ Jim ~

bevar

My Feedback: (27)

Well...I was at the 'Nall for 9 days, was one of the jet guys flying turbines and know the guy who locked out and went into the woods. He was flying a Comp-ARF Ultra Lightning powered by a Jet Cat P-200 (probably almost $15,000). He was flying with Futaba gear and said it just locked out and went in. Post crash...everything worked.

At the 'Nall, they had 35 flight lines from one end to the other. Figure at least one guy in line with his radio on waiting for his turn to fly and then maybe another 20 or 30 guys in the pits working on planes (there wee 965 pilots in attendance) and there you go...100 transmitters or more on at any one time.

The problems were believed to be that the frequencies were just getting swamped. From how it was explained to me...there are not "80 2.4 channels" but an infinite number. What happens is that the individual bands get narrower as more guys turn on until some start to get swamped.

Both JR and Futaba were having problems...it was because of the nature of 2.4 and how it operates...not just one brand.

Beave

PacificNWSkyPilot

My Feedback: (19)

I wasn't there.

So I wrote them and asked them if they have any documentation of crashes and causes.

Maybe I'll hear something back. I don't know if they are documenting anything like that at the Joe Nall. I would think by now that they would have somebody documenting the crashes and the causes.

~ Jim ~

bevar

My Feedback: (27)

You won't hear anything back other than "nope". 965 pilots...35 flight stations spread out over 2,000 acres...no one keeps track of that kind of stuff.

B

dougclind

Just one minor point to add. There were really not 35 pilot stations. There were 7 at the main flight line but only 3 at the electric line. I didn't check out the heli, seaplane, or 3D lines so I don't know for sure but at least at the seaplane line, I don't think there were 7 because I drove past there several times. I didn't count but I don't think there were more than 5.

They did tell people not to turn on their transmitters until they were ready to fly on the flight line but that was totally unrealistic. You know people are going to at least briefly test their system. What JR and the others really need to do is have a low power bench test mode. Something even less power than a range test and it needs to be a switch or a switched mode. It also would need to have something like a big red flag popping up on the screen or some kind of audible signal so you don't actually try to fly in that mode.

Of course, I suppose that's not going to solve the problem for the next few years because of all the investment in current equipment. I don't see a good solution actually. Impounding transmitters won't be very popular especially when you have 5 different flight lines and a thousand pilots. You also have vendors right there selling new stuff, including selling RTF planes with transmitters included in the box. Like little innocent Vapors or other Parkzone BNF (bind and fly) planes.

Excluding 72 MHz may have been a bad idea. It just forced everyone into the same small box. I think they have to consider encouraging use of the older technologies. Joe Nall is just going to continue to grow and the 2.4 GHz spectrum is almost fixed in stone. Oh, it may be expanded at some time but that would require hardware mods to all our transmitters or else buy new ones. Won't happen in the near term! Big events need to face the reality that the 80 channels aren't good enough.

ddaveb

That utube ""TEST"" with a Spektrum & Futaba Rx both browning out at 3v is not valid it is the digitial servos that stop working at 3v not the Futaba Rx.

PacificNWSkyPilot

My Feedback: (19)

Oh? Okay, I'll nibble on your troll. One quick response. Related or not, this is still the wrong thread to argue that.

Okay....So... why didn't its servos start moving BEFORE the Spektrum's servos when the voltage increased again?

Let's say that is true, that the FUT Rx was ON the whole time. To me, that clearly shows that a Spektrum that is OFF recovers faster than a Futaba that is ON...that's not a GOOD thing for Futaba, my friend.

I get a chuckle over how badly the Futaba guys hate that video. Iron-clad proof and they want to argue with it.

They're both good radios. But ANY piece of technology can have an Achilles' Heel, something that is Kryptonite to its super-powers.

I remember not so many years ago when a supermarket door sensor, a pager tower or a train-car counter was all it took to knock my planes out of the sky. I'll re-assert my position that 8 or 9 out of 10 crashes are still the result of something the pilot simply did or didn't do, while building or while flying, or a simple battery failure. One of my very best friends had a battery failure yesterday....it happens. Afterward, testing and loading showed a cell dropping out under load.

And it happens hundreds of times to every one of these lock-outs or brown-outs. No matter which brand.

~ Jim ~

airbusdrvr

TexasSky Pilot, say it isn't so! I so much wanted to believe it was the technology and not the operator

dougclind

Airbusdrvr, I'll second that one! Texas, how dare you take away my favorite excuse!

PacificNWSkyPilot

My Feedback: (19)

Fear not! By all indications here, the art of finding something else to point at to take the focus off our own dumb-thumbing is still going strong!

To be honest, I'm the one who is weeeing into the wind here. Why I bother, who even knows any more!

Fortunately, nobody really listens to me anyway!

~ Jim ~[8D]

dougclind

Texas, you never know. Truth is like a good seed. It will always bear some good fruit even though we may not always see it.