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-   -   Lost another one today (http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/jr-radio-spektrum-radios-116/10639037-lost-another-one-today.html)

washfire 07-25-2011 07:59 PM

Lost another one today
 
Lost my new plane yesterday,.... Hanger 9 RV-8 with saito 82 in her.... Completely distroyed... Third flight in her. Second flight for yesterday... First flight was 8 min. This flight was only about 3... Rounding the number 1 turn for the 4th lap and I lost all radio controls..... Down she went at 3/4 throttle... Only thing left was 1/2 of a wing and the tail fethers.... Not worth trying to repair.... Went thru all the checks... before flilght.. All was good... After about a 45 min search, Brought all the pieces back and checked all the batteries... All were good......Still don't know what happened..... So I guess my question is... Is there anything I can do about this??? I mean if this is going to happen and i just loose hundreds of $ every 3th or 4th plane just because I think this is the wrong hobbie. I had another about 4 years ago do the sme thing... Horizon had me sned my Alpha 40 with a dx5 back and they send me a whole new one at 1/2 price... (they said they could not find anything wrong)... That plane was on a buddy box and the instructor said about the same thing... It just quit responding....
Any ideas???
Just asking.:eek:

scooterinvegas 07-25-2011 09:22 PM

RE: Lost another one today
 
Need a lot more info.

Battery type size
Switch type
Rx model
Tx model
Last time voltage was checked and the reading

Why was the fail safe not set to idle?

Are you losing same planes with the same Tx and Rx?

Doug47 07-26-2011 04:12 AM

RE: Lost another one today
 
Quote:

Are you losing same planes with the same Tx and Rx?
I sure hope not. Radio equipment nowadays , actually for about the last 20 some years has been amazingly dependable.
Quote:

Need a lot more info.

Battery type size
Switch type
Rx model
Tx model
Last time voltage was checked and the reading

Why was the fail safe not set to idle
?
Yup, what scooterinvegas said will be required to get anywhere close to a 'maybe' idea.
Quote:

I mean if this is going to happen and i just loose hundreds of $ every 3th or 4th plane just because I think this is the wrong hobbie
I know it sucks. Rest assured though most of us have never,ever had a catastrophic radio system failure unless it was our fault (HOW did I know that?:().
I'd work with another person in the club to go over the whole thing with you for another set of eyes , which never hurts, plus post that info scooterinvegas wrote and let's see what can be figured out. Doug

fizzwater2 07-26-2011 06:12 AM

RE: Lost another one today
 
You said "rounding the number one turn for the 4th lap" - as in pylon race style turn?

I've seen high speed stalls in turns like this, the plane acts like all radio was lost. Just a thought.

Heck, I've done it before.. been flying pylon off and on since the mid 80's, and all it takes is a little too much elevator and it would be exaggerated by flying slower than full throttle.

It may be a possibility to consider


grizzly59 07-26-2011 07:17 AM

RE: Lost another one today
 
99% of the time it is pilot error! Not explainable until years later when a person really gets to know how to fly and how planes react to all kinds of conditions. Then one day in a flash you remeber something that explains it all.

ror 07-26-2011 07:24 AM

RE: Lost another one today
 
flying pylon and on a buddy box?

washfire 07-26-2011 12:19 PM

RE: Lost another one today
 
Ok, Sorry to be a little short on the info, I was pissed at the time of writing it... Lets see..... using a DX7 (been using it for past 3 years with out any problems on several other planes) Voltage was checked at time of the accident... 10.4 V.
Receiver was a AR7000, All wires were still attached on recovery. Receiver battery was a 6V 3000mah, voltage after wreckage recovered,, 6.4V. Fail safe was at idle.... I may have over stated... It went down... No power to throttle , alerion, rudder, etc.... Not flying pylon just using a pattern of the first turn after takeoff..made 4 (four) laps in an oval around field and started 5th lap, made first turn and while still in turn lost any radio control of the plane... No, not on a buddy box..... 1st plane was lost 4 years ago on a different tx and rx but still from spectrum, dx5e and a500.

yaronr 09-18-2011 02:23 PM

RE: Lost another one today
 
Washfire,
I understand and share your frustration.
I have been flying RC planes for the last 40 years, mostly with Futaba. I swiched to DX7 as one of the early adopters. I have been very happy with the DX7 and bought a DX8 as soon as they came out. In my "hangar" there are more than 30 planes, mostly gas and electric.
I rarely lost a plane in flight.
All was great until about 6 monthes ago, when I started loosing planes, "dropping from the sky" in mid flight.
Initially, I blamed myself. But when my good old Giant Super Sportster & DLE30 went down shortly after takeoff - not responding to my TX,
I noticed the LED on the AR7000 was blinking in the crashed plane indicating a lost control link(needles to say the battery was still fresh).
Since than, I lost 2 more foamies, on different TXs and different RXs.
I also noticed, that some of my club members are suffering the same loss of control crashes.
Realizing I have unstable control link, I replaced all my AR7000 RXs with the new dsmX series- they relink(bind) instantly.
I must say they work flawlessly for me until now.
But, the bottom line is something is going wrong in the 2.4Ghz frequency (not only for Spektrum, as I noticed).
The old receivers, are not as bulet proof as they used to be, any more.
I guess, it varies from one flying site to an other, depending on the frequency polution, but I just can not take the risk.
My advise is: change your receivers to the new DSMX. Don't take the risk of your plane hitting someone.
That is the minimum you can do.
I only wonder,,, how come we do not find more reports of lost control on 2.4Ghz.
I expect Spektrum and Horizon should know more about this - guessing: that is why they introduced the DSMX.
I hope this letter will help save your planes.

grizzly59 09-18-2011 04:15 PM

RE: Lost another one today
 
I flew with my old 9000's and 7000's all summer. Had them in planes ever since they came out. If they worked for years why would they quit? I kept aware of issues reported through the years and updated(sent them in) firmware when there was on available. I always changed batteries every three years. Most times a person wrecks a plane they say I had no control-Exactly Right!!!-Most times they lost control. Just the other week I sold a plane that I flew with a 7000 in it. I used a DX8. He binds a 9303 that he used with no problems and the second time he flies it he crashes it. He said he lost signal and blamed it on his 9303. A week later he comes back and says he kept thinking about what happened and he admits he stalled it on a turn coming in for a landing-Too low a speed and a turn compound the lift issue and it is gone. Great guy to admit that and not leave blame on a JR transmitter.

I have had crashes as a learner that I swear it was a trasmission-receivering issue only years later recalling the incident I see I crashed the plane-period. (I was a learner quite a few years and I was a learner longer than I really thought I was)

I am not saying there are never issues with a product that causes a plane to crash. They occur for sure. I just believe guys are to quick to blame something else besides themselves. If anyone is having crashes more frequent that other guys they fly with they better get help because they are doing something wrong

yaronr 09-19-2011 10:30 AM

RE: Lost another one today
 
The second time I have experienced those 3-4 seconds, watching my plane go down, not responding to my RC inputs - was the end of my doubts. After 40 years of experience, I believe I know well the difference between disorientation, stall condition and loss of control link.

I don't think our old receivers are bad. In fact, I don't blame Spektrum & Horizon - I think they did great to our hobby.
What I say is, that the environment had changed. I also realize this could be different from site to site.
The change could be coming from new technological applications, such as: wireless irrigation systems, UAV's, mobile communication devises, ect.
They all use the 2.4 frequencies and we have a lot of them all around in increasing numbers.

If your flying site is safe (No strange crashes), than all this is not relevant for you.
But, once you'll notice these crashes start, I recommend you change to DSMX.
This seems to work well (for now).

grizzly59 09-19-2011 04:33 PM

RE: Lost another one today
 
What you say makes good sense to me. I was addressing to the person or persons who have quit a few loses and are thinking of quiting the hobby.

BuschBarber 09-19-2011 05:26 PM

RE: Lost another one today
 
My first computer radio was a Futaba T6XA. I had two, one on Ch44 and one on Ch46. One summer every receiver in every aircraft I was flying, was glitching. I had a lousy summer, flying wise, and spent hours trying to resolve the glitching. I finally replaced the radios with an 8AUPS. I never thought once about leaving the hobby.

Most of my club flies JR/Spektrum, with some using Futaba and one Hitec A9. Most of us are flying 2.4 with only minor issues tied to setup and installation. We have 110 club members, many, including myself, have years of experience.

I would not be afraid to use any of the major brands.

dabigboy 09-27-2011 08:23 PM

RE: Lost another one today
 
Sorry to hear about your loss....at least you are mostly just out money, vs hundreds of hours in a kit-built plane. Did you range-check before the accident flight?

I've been in the hobby off and on for over 15 years now. I've had exactly one loss-of-control accident related to the electronics, and it was actually a servo, not the radio itself. This was in the mid 90s, I was still fairly new to the hobby. My trainer was acting a little weird on the ailerons, which should have been my sign to land and check things out. Just as I was about to start a landing pattern, the plane just rolled full left from level flight, and didn't stop spinning until it hit the ground. I was able to throttle back, so I knew I had at least partial control. This was on an old Futaba AM radio, which then sat in a cornfield for about 3 months. It was later found, the suspect servo was discarded, and the radio was used for many years thereafter....in fact, it still works!!!

Since then, the biggest problem I've had was two different servos in my glow helicopter went out, one during flight (yaw). Fortunately I was low enough on that one I was able to bring it in without incident. The yaw servo also only exhibited its untoward behavior when the heli was spooled up to almost hover RPM, which made the problem particularly hard to diagnose.

I did have the elevator channel on my old Futaba 4ch FM go out after sitting for a while, but that is what control checks are for. :)

There are many things that can bring a plane down, but nearly all of them can be virtually eradicated with proper installation, maintenance, and pre-flight inspection. If you're truly serious about safety and are not willing to accept that things "just happen" for no discernible reason sometimes, here are some good personal rules:

1. Keep a battery checker (not just a volt meter, but one that can optionally put a load on the battery) and use it RELIGIOUSLY at the field. Check when you unload your gear, check after your control check (those few moments of use may bring a failing battery down, so watch for unexpected voltage drops between readings), and check between flights. I usually check right after I land, and again before firing up the plane. It's important to know the battery's trends, and to develop an understanding of how much it should drop right after use, as well as how much it will "recover" after being off for a while.

2. Check for proper control surface movement before starting the engine.

3. Do a proper range check before your first flight of the day: collapse the TX antenna, walk away from the plane with its tail pointed towards you, go to about 100ft, and hold the TX vertical. You may need a helper at the model for smaller planes. Do a full control surface check again. TIP: only collapse your antenna when you're at full distance, and extend it again when you're done, as you're walking back....it's hard on the TX to transmit with a "short" antenna (obviously this procedure is quite a bit different for 2.4ghz radios, since the antenna is fixed).

4. Check control surfaces *again* once the engine is running/motor is spinning.

5. Be proactive when installing and setting up radio gear. Think about all details of your installation, and try to imagine how anything could cause a problem. Examples: RX antenna being stretched or pulled across a sharp surface (like the hard edge of a plywood piece), control rods binding even a little, metal-to-metal contact (ergo, don't ever allow this if at all possible), servo leads getting tangled up in aileron torque rod ends, etc.

About those control checks...don't just wiggle the sticks and look for movement, consciously move one control at a time and look for the correct reaction on the plane. Know what you are looking for before you do something. I crashed a Butterfly once because I moved the stick in circles and noted tail feather movement...turns out my elevator channel was reversed. I also ALMOST flew my Cub with ailerons reversed, even after a thorough pre-flight. There happened to be a cross-wind as I taxied out, and I rolled opposite ailerons into the wind (a scale Cub will force you to do things right). They went the opposite direction of what I was expecting to see. Too close for comfort!!!

There's still always the chance that something could happen (interference, for instance), but at least you will have the satisfaction of knowing you did everything in your power to minimize the chance of a problem. And if you do crash, the most important thing is to learn from it. Figure out what happened, and take measures to ensure it won't happen again.

I know it sounds like a lot of stuff to do/remember, but once you start making safety a priority, it truly becomes second nature, part of the way you do everything related to the hobby. Just be vigilant.....when it comes to safe and professional flying, accept NO compromises.

Matt

PS: I won't get into an analog vs 2.4ghz debate here, but suffice to say I have not gone 2.4ghz yet simply because analog has never let me down. I've never been shot down or had any interference issues with analog (even including my old AM radio), so I see no need to change. Why change something that has a 100% success rate?

jimy1321 09-27-2011 10:02 PM

RE: Lost another one today
 
If it a dx throw it away it is nnot worth the agravation  .I **** canned my dx8 an here is wwhat happened : Afteer wadding up multiple aircraft I gave up on the dx  my freind sent the thing back to horizon ,horizon ssent him a repaired rx s :seemed like a good idea ,he wanted a good rx , I wanted the dx out of my sight ,hoizon hobby wants to make it right ...............everyone is happy ............wrong!!!!!!!  he gets the new  improved version back  binds it to his nitro planes p47 {ar6000 rx  ]  guess  wwhat happens next ?????           CUT YOUR LOSSES AND BUY SOMETHING THAT WORKS!!!!!!

AndyKunz 09-28-2011 05:20 AM

RE: Lost another one today
 

Quote:

ORIGINAL: jimy1321

... binds it to his nitro planes p47 {ar6000 rx ] guess wwhat happens next ?????

Better check your facts. The AR6000 will not bind to a DX8.

Andy

jimy1321 09-28-2011 10:15 AM

RE: Lost another one today
 


Andy ,       I called my freind ,and he says he is running ar6000 rx in all his planes  he also said it seemed t bind fine. Is there a compatability issue there ? Mabey our dx8 nightmare is acually a rx issue . If  so please advise . rx  s  are lots cheaper to replace than aircraft.       thanks.                                                                                                    </p>

Bundubasher 09-28-2011 10:42 AM

RE: Lost another one today
 
I've been usingextensively Spectrum equipment on 11 planes for about 3 years and touch wood, have not suffered any mishap, but it is not to say I will notsuffer a mishap in the future, but so far going is good.

But sometimes the 3rd rock from the sunexperiencescontinental drift in a verticalfashion and knocks straight and level flying planes out of the sky....

jimy1321 09-28-2011 11:32 AM

RE: Lost another one today
 
lol .  I will advise ralphy of the real issue at hand  . Why didnt I think of that?

AndyKunz 09-29-2011 05:28 AM

RE: Lost another one today
 

Quote:

ORIGINAL: jimy1321



Andy , I called my freind ,and he says he is running ar6000 rx in all his planes he also said it seemed t bind fine. Is there a compatability issue there ? Mabey our dx8 nightmare is acually a rx issue . If so please advise . rx s are lots cheaper to replace than aircraft. thanks. </p>
The AR6000 receiver WILL NOT bind to a DX8. The AR6000 uses the original DSM protocol. The DX8 does not support that, it supports only DSM2, DSMX, and DSM-Marine. So he's not using an AR6000. He may be using an AR6100, 6110, 6115 but definitely not an AR6000.

What version of code is his transmitter using? Has he had his radio updated per the Service Bulletin? You know, the one that says that 6-channel receivers in DSM2 mode can have problems...

Andy

Bundubasher 09-29-2011 09:51 AM

RE: Lost another one today
 
Hoosier, yes, I agree.

About 4 years ago when we were still flying on 35 MHz band, 2 of us (we were the only people on the field) were flying, both on 35 MHz , but different channels. I took off and a little later the other guy took off - and not long after lost control and crash his plane. He was absolutely convinced I shot him down until I pointed out to him that he did'nt extend his Tx aerial.........

No technology is absolute and sometimes we make mistakes as well. It is how we mitigate these factorsthat make us crash less.... http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/js/f...wink_smile.gif

jimy1321 09-30-2011 10:52 PM

RE: Lost another one today
 


Andy, I guess Ive got egg on my face .I called him back and you are correct ,he has 2 ar600 s and a ar500 . If I remember right when I purchased the dx8 it was dsm2 I gave him the tx and he sent it back to horizon they fixed it and returned it , I would asssume the updates would be part of the fix ,as for the service bullitin ,I was unaware of any 6ch rx issues.Do theseproblems carrry over to the JR side of it? Ihave purchased a new JR 9503 tx and am still running my spectrum rx s on a few aircraft .Mabey I should not trip butI have gone bigger and better ie.expencive . on the aircraft and dont want any failure s other than my own .B aghite as long as its a failure of my own lol.</p>

AndyKunz 10-01-2011 06:40 AM

RE: Lost another one today
 
No problem! I'm glad you tracked this down!

There were issues only with DSMX-enabled radios, both JR and Spektrum.

Here is the link to the DX8 version of the Service Bulletin:

http://www.horizonhobby.com/Products...rodID=SPMR8800

For JR you should check our website for the specific radios affected. If you didn't get the DSMX add-on, you have nothing to worry about. If you did, by all means check out the bulletin!

As for being wrong, don't worry it happens to us all. I was wrong once - I thought I had made a mistake, but I hadn't :D

Andy

jimy1321 10-01-2011 07:09 AM

RE: Lost another one today
 


Andy, I read the bullitin ad it explanes alot of our issues ,good info ! I'll pass it along. THANKS AGAIN</p>

HunkaJunk 10-02-2011 07:09 AM

RE: Lost another one today
 
Quote:

ORIGINAL: washfire

Lost my new plane yesterday,.... Hanger 9 RV-8 with saito 82 in her.... Completely distroyed... Third flight in her. Second flight for yesterday... First flight was 8 min. This flight was only about 3... Rounding the number 1 turn for the 4th lap and I lost all radio controls..... Down she went at 3/4 throttle... Only thing left was 1/2 of a wing and the tail fethers.... Not worth trying to repair.... Went thru all the checks... before flilght.. All was good... After about a 45 min search, Brought all the pieces back and checked all the batteries... All were good......Still don't know what happened..... So I guess my question is... Is there anything I can do about this??? I mean if this is going to happen and i just loose hundreds of $ every 3th or 4th plane just because I think this is the wrong hobbie. I had another about 4 years ago do the sme thing... Horizon had me sned my Alpha 40 with a dx5 back and they send me a whole new one at 1/2 price... (they said they could not find anything wrong)... That plane was on a buddy box and the instructor said about the same thing... It just quit responding....
Any ideas???
Just asking.:eek:
Where was the throttle failsafe position at? you said "Down she went at 3/4 throttle..." This would imply a power failure. If the radio link was lost, the throttle will go to failsafe position.

You also posted that all the wires were still attached upon recovery at the crash site. Was the system still powered up? if so was the light on the RX flashing? (signifying a power loss)

Quote:

:ORIGINAL yaronr
Washfire,
I understand and share your frustration.
I have been flying RC planes for the last 40 years, mostly with Futaba. I swiched to DX7 as one of the early adopters. I have been very happy with the DX7 and bought a DX8 as soon as they came out. In my "hangar" there are more than 30 planes, mostly gas and electric.
I rarely lost a plane in flight.
All was great until about 6 monthes ago, when I started loosing planes, "dropping from the sky" in mid flight.
Initially, I blamed myself. But when my good old Giant Super Sportster &amp; DLE30 went down shortly after takeoff - not responding to my TX,
I noticed the LED on the AR7000 was blinking in the crashed plane indicating a lost control link(needles to say the battery was still fresh).
Since than, I lost 2 more foamies, on different TXs and different RXs.
I also noticed, that some of my club members are suffering the same loss of control crashes.
Realizing I have unstable control link, I replaced all my AR7000 RXs with the new dsmX series- they relink(bind) instantly.
I must say they work flawlessly for me until now.
But, the bottom line is something is going wrong in the 2.4Ghz frequency (not only for Spektrum, as I noticed).
The old receivers, are not as bulet proof as they used to be, any more.
I guess, it varies from one flying site to an other, depending on the frequency polution, but I just can not take the risk.
My advise is: change your receivers to the new DSMX. Don't take the risk of your plane hitting someone.
That is the minimum you can do.
I only wonder,,, how come we do not find more reports of lost control on 2.4Ghz.
I expect Spektrum and Horizon should know more about this - guessing: that is why they introduced the DSMX.
I hope this letter will help save your planes. <span class="info"> </span>

The flashing light on the RX does NOT indicate a loss of radio link, it indicates that the RX rebooted due to a power loss!

As per the RX manual(s)

QuickConnect With Brownout Detection

&bull;  Should an interruption of power occur (brownout), the system will reconnect immediately when power is restored (QuickConnect).

&bull;  The LED on the receiver will flash slowly indicating a power interruption (brownout) has occurred.

&bull;  Brownouts can be caused by an inadequate power supply (weak battery or regulator), a loose connector, a bad switch, an inadequate BEC when using an electronic speed controller, etc.

&bull;  Brownouts occur when the receiver voltage drops below 3.5 volts thus interrupting control as the servos and receiver require a minimum of 3.5 volts to operate







jimy1321 10-02-2011 06:10 PM

RE: Lost another one today
 
Andy ,I think I just answered my own question about jr radio s having issue s with spectrum 6 ch rx s; post crash I've got a blinking red light and a solid oarnge light and all servos are funtioning fine Luckily the plane is a foamy so its nothing a a little time and epoxy won't fix . What rx would you suggest ? The plane is a hyperion sniper II &gt;&gt;&gt; JR 9503 rx


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