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2 Stroke Oil = failed bearings

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Old 12-11-2013, 09:40 PM
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flejter1
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Default 2 Stroke Oil = failed bearings

To those using 2 stroke oil,

I'm starting to see a trend!!

I just recieved yet another K-140 (among 4 others in last month) and this customer is running 2 stroke oil. He has 16hrs on his turbine and the bearings are worn out already. He has some goopy tar like substance all over the back of the turbine, I am assuming it is from his oil. I have had others that didn't make it past 8 hrs before developing bearing noise. I don't understand why our customers are expermenting with 2 stroke oils when we pay thousands of dollars to purchase a turbine and the factory recommends (page 13, use Diesel, Jet A, Kerosene and "5" % KingTech Special blend or Synthetic turbine oil).

2 stroke oil is designed for internal combustion piston engines that run at 200-250* F. I'm sure the oils are superior oils for dirt bikes and snowmobiles but they are not designed to be ran in turbines. Our turbine as you know runs at 400-650*C or 700-1200*F. It appears that the 2 stroke oil is vaporizing before it has a chance to lubricate the bearings properly.

I read how guys are saying they have 6-8 hrs running 2 stroke oil and in their opinion all is fine when actually the real damage is done and its just showing itself. The whole idea of using Turbine oil is to get a good 25hrs before servicing them, not 6- 10 hrs.

Better example, I get turbines in with 25+ hrs running KingTech oil & Diesel and the internals are very clean with no coking. I have told some customers running our oil to go to 35hrs and send it in for its next service. Our oil is extremly healthy for the bearings and they are lasting much longer.

To every one reading this, STOP USING AEROSHELL 500 & ALL 2 STROKE OIL!!

I'm sure this is going to open a debate for all the chemists out there, but I am speaking first hand on what I see when I take the turbines apart.


The pictures show the tar goop and the turbine wheel is ash white and extremely dry. The normal turbine wheel is brownish and has a wet oiled look to them.





Regards,

Dirk
KingTech Service
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Old 12-12-2013, 11:34 AM
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Dirk you made a believer out of me with my 140 and using aeroshell 500. I use nothing but your oil now. In all my turbines (5) 3 K140's 1 JC 120 and a old Wren MKIII
Thanks George
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Old 12-12-2013, 05:39 PM
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Dirk, I know Barry said in another thread i asked in that the Mobil Jet Oil II is still approved, Have you serviced any engines using this Oil? I got a little over 4 hours on my K140G using this oil.
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Old 12-12-2013, 06:35 PM
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Kenrico,

Mobile Jet II is an acceptable oil to use. From what I see when I service turbines running that oil is a very large amount of carbon build up and it takes a lot of work to clean them. The bearings are definitely coked up but not as bad as the Aeroshell 500. I'm sure you will see the performance drop off the closer you get to 25hrs. I would rate Mobil Jet II right above Aeroshell 500 but it does not do the damage like Aeroshell. If you have a way to get our oil to your country I would switch to the KingTech oil, you will have a much happier turbine that will continue to make the power you enjoy all the way to servicing.

Regards,
Dirk
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Old 12-12-2013, 07:30 PM
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Thanks! for the answer Dirk, I could just as i do with the Mobil. But i also have a few Jet-Cats using the same oil and i would have to tag along a second fueler just for the Kingtech unless i could run your Oil in the Jet-Cats. I also just got a brand new case of the Mobil.
Im not flying the 140 as much as i would like since its in my bigger jet that i don't fly locally, I could buy a second fueler just for the Kingtech but that would mean my mixed fuel getting old between flying sessions with that Jet.
I might just order some and make sure I burn 5 gals every time i take it out !
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Old 12-13-2013, 07:06 PM
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It absolutely baffles me why someone would spend $2,000 to $3,000 on a great turbine engine (like Kingtech!) and then try to cut a corner and save a dollar or two with turbine oil other than Kingtech's oil. Why? IF you had a problem after using Kingtech oil, then Dirk and Barry would stand by you. But, as Dirk has clearly stated, other oils such as two stroke oil are BAD for their turbine! Don't do it!
Regards,
Gus
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Old 12-18-2013, 07:50 PM
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hi guys for Australian kingtech customers we have the kingtech oil I have sent a consignment to Tyson dodd in queensland
and another consignment to ken Heinz in western Australia I can also ship it to the other states if you need
regards
ken
kingtech australia
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Old 12-18-2013, 09:01 PM
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Ken,

Hopefully your customers take FULL advantage of you importing KingTech oil. I have different sets of bearings ran with our oil and competitors oils that I take to events to show guys what I find at service intervals. You can clearly see the KingTech oil out performs all the other brands significantly!!

Keep em flyin!!

Dirk,
KingTech International Service
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Old 12-19-2013, 05:57 AM
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Good info Dirk. It baffles me why people don't use the recomended oil in their Kingtech turbines. At $90 for two gallons and free shipping I think its a bargain for longevity of the engine.
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Old 12-19-2013, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smchale View Post
Good info Dirk. It baffles me why people don't use the recomended oil in their Kingtech turbines. At $90 for two gallons and free shipping I think its a bargain for longevity of the engine.
$90.00 for two gallons and free shipping IF you live in the US. I have tried to get this in Canada to no avail. From the threads, it appears that, as time goes by, we are seeing more oils banned and strong recommendations to only use the Kingtech oil to validate the warranty. I actually am getting concerned - I have a NIB K-140 that I can't get oil for.
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Old 12-19-2013, 09:08 AM
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I am sure there are many countries where you cannot get Kingtech oil. If it comes to the point where the warranty is only valid if this oil is used, I think turbine sales will fall dramatically. Hope that does not happen,
In Cyprus, where Kingtech is popular, we can only get Mobil turbine oil.

Last edited by Jim Cattanach; 12-19-2013 at 09:10 AM.
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Old 12-19-2013, 11:36 AM
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I agree with you, Jim, although above Dirk says that he would rate Mobil Jet II right above Aeroshell 500 (which I believe they have banned) and that he sees a lot of carbon build up that is hard to clean and that the bearings are coked up. I don't want to harm a brand new turbine so I may have to try and locate a jet flyer in Maine (8 hour drive one way) and see if I can ship the Kingtech oil to him and drive down and pick it up.
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Old 12-19-2013, 01:17 PM
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hi guy's I got the oil shipped to Australia it can't be that hard for the rest of the world
cost is the biggest issue I would think. maybe the kingtech dealers around the world
need to work it out with barry so every one has an easy supply source
ken
kingtech australia
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Old 12-19-2013, 05:42 PM
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How about using this oil with other turbines; RAM, RTI, etc?

Bart
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Old 12-19-2013, 10:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmrcjets View Post
hi guy's I got the oil shipped to Australia it can't be that hard for the rest of the world
cost is the biggest issue I would think. maybe the kingtech dealers around the world
need to work it out with barry so every one has an easy supply source
ken
kingtech australia
Having to import a special oil to use in a specific make of turbine, would (in my opinion) have most people looking for a more oil friendly turbine.
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Old 12-20-2013, 05:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cattanach View Post
I am sure there are many countries where you cannot get Kingtech oil. If it comes to the point where the warranty is only valid if this oil is used, I think turbine sales will fall dramatically. Hope that does not happen,
In Cyprus, where Kingtech is popular, we can only get Mobil turbine oil.
As always... just playing the devils advocate, and not bashing anyone....

In the USA it's actually illegal to say that to maintain a warranty, you must ONLY use the "Supplies" made by the OEM. Ironically... this all started from the large car manufactures, and OIL.

in the 1970's.... the Magnuson–Moss warranty Act was put into place. Basically, the "Big 3" wanted people who bought their cars to only maintain them by using their mechanics, and their oils. The law made it illegal to force people to do that. since that gave the power back to the OEM to deny the warranty for really any reason they wanted. So... this became 2-fold.

1) It became false advertising, since a 5 year warranty could be killed if you were a day late for service.

2) It kills competition to the aftermarket, since now you are forced to use supplies and service only available from the OEM.

In the end, the law does not stop an OEM from forcing you from using their supplies and service... but if that's the case... the supplies and service must be given FREE to the end user.

From that point on... the OEM had to Spec an oil type that was good to use, and would be available in a generic form. This is where the USA "API" ratings really evolved. Also, Europe "ACEA" and the Japanese "JASO". Basically... the OEM's spec'ed an oil... then the aftermarket oil companies would blend to those specs.


With that all said.... Barry, Dirk.... I do agree with you guys about the 2-stroke oils. They just can't take the heat, and they were designed to burn during combustion. But, when you said that the 2 top rated turbine oils were in question (DTE and 500)... I wasn't sure what was going on.


Don't get me wrong.... you guys offer GREAT service... and the engines are hard to beat. (I've personally been waiting for the K-35 to come out) But, to keep customers happy (and to stay legal in the USA and Europe)... you may need release the contents of the oil you are pushing, so people can get it, without buying it from you. OR... give an "Oil Spec" that can be followed. (since the Mil spec isn't good) At the least... make a list of approved oils.



With all that said.... going back to my comments in the original oil thread... To keep your engines running clean... you may want to consider either putting a little more fuel down the bearing tube, (a few thou bigger on the restrictor) to help keep it cool. OR... putting more by-pass air around the tube to to the same job.


Last edited by Dr Honda; 12-20-2013 at 05:12 AM.
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Old 12-20-2013, 05:44 AM
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Just to show an independent side of the 2-stroke prob....


Here's a Wren I bought used. This had only around 6 hr's on it (from it's last service)... but the bearings were bad. Needless to say... I was a little PO'ed since it was sold as "Excellent condition".

You can see the "Tar" in the can, and rear bearing... and you can see the "Ash" on the wheel. In this case... the real reason the bearings failed, was because the pre-load tube was stuck. (This engine uses a rear pre-load, so a tube and spring are inside the bearing tube. On the King Tech engines... I assume it's a front preload, and wouldn't suffer as bad)








Last edited by Dr Honda; 12-20-2013 at 05:49 AM.
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Old 12-20-2013, 10:26 AM
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the bearing on the right was taken out of a 140 of mine with about 13 hrs on it. I was using aero shell 500 the bearing on the left was out of a 140 at 25hrs using kingtech oil. I now use only kingtech oil in all my turbines inc JetCats
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Old 12-20-2013, 01:37 PM
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George,
I agree with Tony that we shouldn't be FORCED to use Kingtech's oil (although that is all I have ever used), but your pictures of the bearings are very compelling. I will certainly continue to use Kingtech's oil. In fact, just today bought another K-140G from Dreamworks - on sale!
Regards,
Gus
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Old 12-20-2013, 02:33 PM
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Gus you will love the 140G I have one in a JL f-15 It starts so smooth on diesel. Much smoother than my Jet Cat kero start,on kero and as I am sure you know they are a power house.

Last edited by aquaskiman; 12-20-2013 at 02:50 PM.
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Old 12-20-2013, 04:22 PM
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hi I haven't seen any one forcing kingtech owners to use kingtech oil or voiding warranty. but if the tech guy's are seeing
bearing damage through different oils it's a bit of a no brainer. I don't really care if the kingtech oil is not suitable for other
turbines as I imported the oil for my kingtech customers only. I also carry mobil oil for any one else that wishes to use it.
price wise in oz I can sell kingtech oil ($14.00 lt) cheaper than mobil oil any where around $20.00 per lt depending on where
you source it. that's my two cents worth
regards
ken
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Old 12-20-2013, 04:49 PM
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George,
I would be interested in your ECU settings on the K-140G for the smooth starts. I have had what I consider to be high temp starts (810C) on my existing K-140G in my YA F-15. PM me if desired.
Thanks,
Gus
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Old 12-20-2013, 05:59 PM
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Tony,

First of all, don't put words in my mouth that I said everyone has to use KingTech oil or we will void your warranty. For the record, KingTech has prohibited the use of Aeroshell 500 and ALL 2 stroke oils period. We have accumulated enough data, that these oils are causing premature wear and damage to our turbines. I have said in many other posts that any other TURBINE OIL i.e. Mobil jet II, DTE light, Aeroshell 560, etc is acceptable to use. I have also gave my honest opinion as to the ranking of performance of other turbine oils when customers ask me for my opinion. KingTech oil has out performed all the other brands out there hands down in my opinion and if you go back to other posts and look at the pictures I posted you can make your own opinion. As a Service Tech, I feel it is my duty to report the findings of my repairs to our customers so they can decide what is best for them. You can run what ever you want in your turbine if you think you know better than us, but if you go against our recommendations, we do not have to warranty the break down.


Regards,

Dirk
KingTech International Service

On another note, if you dump sugar in your gas tank and blow the engine do you really think the manufacturer is going to fix your engine under warranty? Or if you put gas in your diesel truck and blow the engine, are they going to fix it for free? DON'T THINK SO....
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Old 12-20-2013, 06:42 PM
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Dirk,

I'm sorry..... that's not the way I meant it. I'm on your side. I agree... 2-stroke has no biz being in a turbine engine. As far as why Shell 500 doesn't work... I don't know... but I stopped burning it a while ago to get away from the toxic issues.

I was simply saying that some one like Jim (who lives in a small country) may have a hard time getting anything that is approved.

I wasn't trying to make it sound like I was putting words in your mount, and I will make a full retraction if needed. I was just trying to be helpful. (that's why I posted my 2-stroke pics)

Once again... I'm sorry for the way I presented my points.
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Old 12-20-2013, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Honda View Post
Dirk,

I'm sorry..... that's not the way I meant it. I'm on your side. I agree... 2-stroke has no biz being in a turbine engine. As far as why Shell 500 doesn't work... I don't know... but I stopped burning it a while ago to get away from the toxic issues.

I was simply saying that some one like Jim (who lives in a small country) may have a hard time getting anything that is approved.

I wasn't trying to make it sound like I was putting words in your mount, and I will make a full retraction if needed. I was just trying to be helpful. (that's why I posted my 2-stroke pics)

Once again... I'm sorry for the way I presented my points.

Do you think that the commercial turbine oils ie mobil, aeroshell etc should be put in a situation where they are allowed to burn? NONE are designed to be burned. Look at the actual tests required to meet mil-prf-23699 and none of them get anywhere near the temps that the oil is exposed too in operation in a model turbine let alone being burned. It is a crapshoot that they provide any lubrication at all to the rear bearing-especially since we are mixing them with kerosene, etc....the new kingtech oil appears to be based on shell hydraulic fluid with some other additives. Should it be used in an application where it can burn? I suspect that the good results bearing-wise are attributable to the very high flash point required of most hydraulic fluids (about double that of the best milspec turbine oil) so it probably has a much higher chance of surviving to the rear bearing. I also wonder what specification oil kingtech will provide to replace the current mil-prf-23699 spec in the owners manual since aeroshell 500 meets it but now it is "prohibited" for warranty repairs.
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