Does this look like a normal K180G start?
03-06-2014, 09:28 AM
#1
Does this look like a normal K180G start?
Just checking before I install, I have no previous experience with Kingtech turbines, & very little with fuel start.
Thanks guys, Jay
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cS-Uxsrftgs
Thanks guys, Jay
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cS-Uxsrftgs
03-06-2014, 10:24 AM
#2
My first impressions are no but I would need to see each phase, you should be able to get a much faster spool up. I have yet to run a 180, but I have ran the 170s and all mine are much faster. Post your settings and maybe a video of just the terminal box showing the phases.
03-06-2014, 04:28 PM
#3
Jay,
I have 2 K180G's,and had 2 170 kero starts. Also experience with a friends 180G. Your start was on the long side, as in a little slow spooling, but I would consider it in the normal range. It seemed smooth, and blew very little flame,which is good. The extreme cold OAT may be a contributing factor to the slow spool up. I wouldn't change anything, and see if your starts are consistent,and maybe a little quicker in the warmer weather. Good luck,
Erik
I have 2 K180G's,and had 2 170 kero starts. Also experience with a friends 180G. Your start was on the long side, as in a little slow spooling, but I would consider it in the normal range. It seemed smooth, and blew very little flame,which is good. The extreme cold OAT may be a contributing factor to the slow spool up. I wouldn't change anything, and see if your starts are consistent,and maybe a little quicker in the warmer weather. Good luck,
Erik
03-06-2014, 08:11 PM
#4
Are you burning diesel?
If so I think that's more or less what you're going to get during cold weather. With kero I've seen much quicker startups.
You can speed up the preheat phase a bit by increasing Engine Fuel Preheat a little (5% or so), revert if you get flames and just keep it the way it is: it will be faster in warmer weather.
I think your engine might be having trouble detecting ignition, like mine was. This happens when you test the engine shortly after shutting it down (warm engine start) or when you use low pump settings to prevent preheat/switchover flames.
If you end up going all the way through the ignition phase without switching to preheat you could consider barry's trick to make flame detection quicker, or you could mix some 10~20% kerosene in your fuel while weather is cold, which will allow you to raise the pump value slightly without flames, making the startup sequence faster overall.
If so I think that's more or less what you're going to get during cold weather. With kero I've seen much quicker startups.
You can speed up the preheat phase a bit by increasing Engine Fuel Preheat a little (5% or so), revert if you get flames and just keep it the way it is: it will be faster in warmer weather.
I think your engine might be having trouble detecting ignition, like mine was. This happens when you test the engine shortly after shutting it down (warm engine start) or when you use low pump settings to prevent preheat/switchover flames.
If you end up going all the way through the ignition phase without switching to preheat you could consider barry's trick to make flame detection quicker, or you could mix some 10~20% kerosene in your fuel while weather is cold, which will allow you to raise the pump value slightly without flames, making the startup sequence faster overall.
03-06-2014, 08:38 PM
#5
Thank you guys, HUGE help! I am using Kerosene, & it was pretty cold (about 18-22 degrees F). It has warmed up a bit here in NY, so I will try it again soon. Hopefully I can get at least 50's in the next week or so, & can see if the start happens sooner. I will probably make & post another video showing rear of turbine & GSU together to give a better idea of exactly what's happening.
03-06-2014, 08:49 PM
#6
Thank you guys, HUGE help! I am using Kerosene, & it was pretty cold (about 18-22 degrees F). It has warmed up a bit here in NY, so I will try it again soon. Hopefully I can get at least 50's in the next week or so, & can see if the start happens sooner. I will probably make & post another video showing rear of turbine & GSU together to give a better idea of exactly what's happening.
In your first video you were getting flames and I advised you to lower the pump power, how much did you lower it, if at all?
Maybe the right setting for you is between the original (which was too fast) and the new setting (which is a bit slow).
With such cold weather though, it probably won't get much better without flames
The engine does need to heat up by about 80~90 degrees C after all. That takes some time and it's not even too healthy for the metal to do it too quickly so, all in all, when you get no flames and the engine spools up smoothly... I call that it a good start
03-12-2014, 12:12 PM
#7
Ok, finally got around to trying it on a warm 65 degree day. Total time from start initiation to stable at idle is 1:18 minutes. My settings are; Pump pw ign-16, & preheat fuel-28%, the rest are factory default. Here is a vid of the start, there were nearly zero flames.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DkST_-8_aY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DkST_-8_aY
03-13-2014, 01:56 AM
#8
Perfect start imho.
After ignition was detected, preheat happened fairly quickly and there was no flame during switchover/fuel ramp, which means preheat was not flooding.
The reason why it took a while to start is just because the engine was already warm when you started the sequence, so when the starter motor starts spooling, it cools it down. The fadec wants to read a 6 degrees temperature raise before switching to preheat (flame detection), but it considers the temperature it reads before spooling the starter as a base.
So in your case: 48 degrees at start command, then down all the way to 36 before the flame actually ignites, then back up all the way to 52 before detecting the flame (switch to preheat).
I think it probably considered 46 as the base, +6 degrees increase = 52.
A trick to help with this when the engine is warm is to start the engine as follows:
1) trim up
2) throttle up for 10 seconds (this spools the starter motor to cool the engine a little)
3) throttle down
After you throttle it down, engine temperature will start to raise automatically because the engine is still warm and there is no airflow, and this helps flame detection, cutting a good 15~20 seconds on the ignition phase.
Otherwise you can use the hidden menu trick to shorten it, but since you're burning kero it is not really necessary, just use this trick when the engine is warm if you ever encounter an ignition timeout.
After ignition was detected, preheat happened fairly quickly and there was no flame during switchover/fuel ramp, which means preheat was not flooding.
The reason why it took a while to start is just because the engine was already warm when you started the sequence, so when the starter motor starts spooling, it cools it down. The fadec wants to read a 6 degrees temperature raise before switching to preheat (flame detection), but it considers the temperature it reads before spooling the starter as a base.
So in your case: 48 degrees at start command, then down all the way to 36 before the flame actually ignites, then back up all the way to 52 before detecting the flame (switch to preheat).
I think it probably considered 46 as the base, +6 degrees increase = 52.
A trick to help with this when the engine is warm is to start the engine as follows:
1) trim up
2) throttle up for 10 seconds (this spools the starter motor to cool the engine a little)
3) throttle down
After you throttle it down, engine temperature will start to raise automatically because the engine is still warm and there is no airflow, and this helps flame detection, cutting a good 15~20 seconds on the ignition phase.
Otherwise you can use the hidden menu trick to shorten it, but since you're burning kero it is not really necessary, just use this trick when the engine is warm if you ever encounter an ignition timeout.
03-13-2014, 04:13 AM
#9
Perfect start imho.
After ignition was detected, preheat happened fairly quickly and there was no flame during switchover/fuel ramp, which means preheat was not flooding.
The reason why it took a while to start is just because the engine was already warm when you started the sequence, so when the starter motor starts spooling, it cools it down. The fadec wants to read a 6 degrees temperature raise before switching to preheat (flame detection), but it considers the temperature it reads before spooling the starter as a base.
So in your case: 48 degrees at start command, then down all the way to 36 before the flame actually ignites, then back up all the way to 52 before detecting the flame (switch to preheat).
I think it probably considered 46 as the base, +6 degrees increase = 52.
A trick to help with this when the engine is warm is to start the engine as follows:
1) trim up
2) throttle up for 10 seconds (this spools the starter motor to cool the engine a little)
3) throttle down
After you throttle it down, engine temperature will start to raise automatically because the engine is still warm and there is no airflow, and this helps flame detection, cutting a good 15~20 seconds on the ignition phase.
Otherwise you can use the hidden menu trick to shorten it, but since you're burning kero it is not really necessary, just use this trick when the engine is warm if you ever encounter an ignition timeout.
After ignition was detected, preheat happened fairly quickly and there was no flame during switchover/fuel ramp, which means preheat was not flooding.
The reason why it took a while to start is just because the engine was already warm when you started the sequence, so when the starter motor starts spooling, it cools it down. The fadec wants to read a 6 degrees temperature raise before switching to preheat (flame detection), but it considers the temperature it reads before spooling the starter as a base.
So in your case: 48 degrees at start command, then down all the way to 36 before the flame actually ignites, then back up all the way to 52 before detecting the flame (switch to preheat).
I think it probably considered 46 as the base, +6 degrees increase = 52.
A trick to help with this when the engine is warm is to start the engine as follows:
1) trim up
2) throttle up for 10 seconds (this spools the starter motor to cool the engine a little)
3) throttle down
After you throttle it down, engine temperature will start to raise automatically because the engine is still warm and there is no airflow, and this helps flame detection, cutting a good 15~20 seconds on the ignition phase.
Otherwise you can use the hidden menu trick to shorten it, but since you're burning kero it is not really necessary, just use this trick when the engine is warm if you ever encounter an ignition timeout.
03-13-2014, 04:43 AM
#10
Thank you, that is great info! I did have 2 "failed ignition" while the eng was cold. I had removed the turbine from the test stand to dry fit it into the plane, but when reinstalling onto the test-stand, the fuel line still appeared to be primed, but after the "failed ignitions", I decided to pull the fuel line & use the pump's test-function to re-prime, then she fired right up, could have been coincidence though
03-13-2014, 05:46 AM
#12
Ahah, hope not, wouldn't be nice if she went in!
You're welcome, hope it was useful. I went through the same issues myself not long ago so I m eager to help to make it easier to figure out these problems
You're welcome, hope it was useful. I went through the same issues myself not long ago so I m eager to help to make it easier to figure out these problems
