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K80 Menu parameters

Old 03-31-2014, 02:16 PM
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Default K80 Menu parameters

After a winter of building, I'm looking to start a K80G. The parameters preloaded in the ECU don't match what is in the Kingtech book. Anyone know as a general rule which of the two are the preferred? Here's a picture of the differences. Disregard the question about kero-start at the bottom, by the way. I'm kind of thinking the book is preferred, but it never hurts to ask.
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Old 03-31-2014, 07:46 PM
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The parameters look about right every turbine is different and will require some tweaking. Is the turbine new? If you are really worried about it set it up on a test stand and start it a couple of times.
Old 04-01-2014, 03:54 PM
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It all depends on your fuel tank set up out side conditions and altitude to name a few things that you need to adjust the settings for. Best thing is to stick it on a test stand and fire it up. then get it running well and starting good before you stick it into the plane.
Old 04-02-2014, 08:18 AM
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George
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Are you using kerosene or diesel? The "manual" parameters you have listed are close to the diesel parameters. The "ECU" settings are close to the kero settings with the exception of the pump start ramp and preheat fuel. There are different parameters for diesel and kero; and different parameters K80/100 and K140 & up.
Old 04-02-2014, 09:24 AM
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Thanks for the responses. I should have mentioned that I am using diesel fuel, 5% kingtech turbine oil. George, you're right, the settings I listed are from the manual's diesel column.

Using the parameters from the manual (diesel), the first start resulted in repeated "ignition fail" messages.

After a while, I progressively increased the pump pw ignition k (whatever that is) to 30. I also increased the "preheat fuel" to 30% progressively. Always the same thing, "ignition fail".

As background, I did prime the pump, and verified the fuel does flow thru the filter.

I also went thru the fuel valve test and could hear it clicking. During start up sequence, I can see the fuel pump led light pulsing.

Glow plug test ok, too. Altitude here is about 1000msl. The temperature was a bit cold, maybe 35degrees F. Maybe that's part of the issue.

During start attempts, the rpm shows around 2500. Is that normal? Anyone care to share their K80 model G settings?

Last edited by Pull Up Now!; 04-02-2014 at 09:27 AM.
Old 04-02-2014, 10:21 AM
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30 seems very high.....

Do you hear it pop and light off? You can get a light off even when you get the ignition fail message.
Old 04-02-2014, 10:57 AM
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Here are my K100 Diesel settings

Auto+2
10
7.3v
6.0v
70
130
15,000
19,000
18,000
2,000
18
80%
72C
6,000
13,000
18%
30s
Auto-Kero
Old 04-02-2014, 11:48 AM
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George, thanks. The only significant difference from my starting parameters is the 13,000 rpm fuel ramp. And my engine hasn't gotten to that point yet.
Gunradd, yes, 30 seems high to me, too, for pump power k. Nope, it doesn't pop or anything. I had a helper who sighed (from a distance) up the tailpipe and there was no light-off.
I've recharged the batteries, and tonight I plan to return the pump power k back down below 20. The high fuel preheat should be ok due to the low temperature. last, I plan to reduce the rpm preheat to about 4000 rpm. maybe it's just too cool and the extra air going thru is cooling things off too much.
Old 04-02-2014, 11:57 AM
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If you look into the tail cone, you should be able to see the igniter "glowing". Also, watch the temp during the start sequence, What is it when you start the sequence? Does it rise slowly? Maybe posting a video of the start sequence will help.
Old 04-02-2014, 12:55 PM
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I'll do that tonight. I had a helper sight up the tube, and he never saw anything glowing. And the temp on the terminal read about 8-12 degrees C. Seems kind of low, and it never really rises. Actually, the outside temp was around 35 degs F. 12 degs C is around 53 degs F so if it's heating at all, it's not getting very hot. One question...is there a glow plug AND an igniter? Two separate types of heat sources? I should also mention I have around 10V available to the turbine. Thanks!

Last edited by Pull Up Now!; 04-02-2014 at 12:57 PM.
Old 04-02-2014, 01:10 PM
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No, there is only one ignition source and is clearly seen when looking in the back of the engine.

Also, make sure the two comm cables (white dots) are oriented correctly.
Old 04-03-2014, 04:22 AM
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The comm cables were oriented correctly. Good news though, this evening, we got the Kingtech K80G running. First, as you guys suggested, I looked up the tailpipe and verified the igniter was working. Next, I reduced the RPM Preheat setting to 4,000 rpm because it's cold out. Next, I primed the burner for about 1.5 seconds. In doing so, I watched the fuel line and saw a couple bubbles advance about 1 inch. This is something I believe one must be careful in doing because it can cause fuel to pool. Then I initiated the start sequence and I could hear a pop or two. OK, so the igniter is working. At that point, I progressively increase the pump pw k one step at-a-time. At around 25, looking up the tailpipe, I could see a momentary circular pattern of individual flames. Had not seen that before, so it's moving in the right direction! Progressed up through 28 until it finally fired and tried to start but flamed out. The terminal now flashed a message "weak fuel". Well, ya coulda told me that before, I thought! One more tweak, 29k, and bang it started. Nice. 143,000 rpms, about 520 degs C. Felt like close to 18lbs thrust. I'll measure that tomorrow night. Throttle is quite responsive, but very non linear. I'll fix that by selecting a different throttle curve on the Fadec. The roar, and feeling of sheer power is quite palpable. I'm sure the neighbors thought the same thing. The start had a momentary burst of yellow flame about 1 foot long out the tailpipe. It had velocity, and went away. Is this a concern?? Is it a sign of incorrect settings? Maybe bumping up the preheat RPM back to 5000 would fix that, if the weather was warmer. I'll try that tonight. I'll also skip the burner prime. Makes me nervous and I don't want to have to do that. I"m hoping that the main problem was insufficient pump power k. Thank you everyone for the tips on starting this beast.
Old 04-03-2014, 04:30 AM
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Congrats!

I'm not sure why your PW is so high, but if it works...
Concerning the flames, as long as they are not excessive, you're okay and is usually normal to get a little flame at switchover. You can reduce the flame at switchover by lowering the Preheat fuel slightly, but it sounds like you may not need to worry about it.

Good luck and enjoy!!
Old 04-03-2014, 08:03 AM
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Right, it's probably a long fuel path from the engine, back to the uat, then the pump, then all the way back thru a valve and filter back to the engine. Also, I'm sure not every UAT has the same back pressure.
Old 04-04-2014, 08:05 AM
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The engine is running beautifullly. 18.5 lbs static thrust. 520 degrees C. But on switchover, there is still that long yellow plume of flame. Would like to reduce or eliminate it. I'm assuming it's from the burner (not the injector), but I'm not sure of that. It disappears in a few seconds, but in the meantime someone could turn their slacks into shorts if they're walking by there.
Old 04-04-2014, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Pull Up Now!
The engine is running beautifullly. 18.5 lbs static thrust. 520 degrees C. But on switchover, there is still that long yellow plume of flame. Would like to reduce or eliminate it. I'm assuming it's from the burner (not the injector), but I'm not sure of that. It disappears in a few seconds, but in the meantime someone could turn their slacks into shorts if they're walking by there.
Try lowering the Preheat fuel by a couple points. You may not get rid of it entirely, but should be able to reduce it.
Old 04-04-2014, 01:50 PM
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OK, will try that tonight. Oh, during initial ignition, when the starter motor first spools up, what is the RPM you're reading?
Old 04-06-2014, 03:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Pull Up Now!
OK, will try that tonight. Oh, during initial ignition, when the starter motor first spools up, what is the RPM you're reading?
During ignition (initially), it's around 2000, then goes to around 6000 as it's heating up. Maybe I'll video data terminal on the start next time I'm out to be 100% certain.
Old 04-07-2014, 08:35 PM
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Yesterday at the field the K100G would not start. ECU error message Ignition Fail.




Here are my parameters in the ECU
Pump Start Parameters = Auto+2
Pump Start Ramp = 006
Glow Plug power = 7.2v
Low Battery Volts 7.02
Starter power at Ignition = 090
at Fuel range = 130
RPM 100% Starter Power=22K
RPM OFF Starter = 30K
RPM to reconnect = 28K
RPM ignition K= 5K
Pump PW Ignition = 26 (Notice Flame, I just change it to 22

Engine Min flow currently is 30%
EGT Ends Preheat = 0072
RPM Preheat k = 5k
RPM Fuel Ramp = 9K
Preheat Fuel = 30%
Ignition time out 30 sec


After 15 flights
ECU error message Ignition Fail,





Any suggestion ? Or do I need to send it in for service
Old 04-07-2014, 08:57 PM
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Did you try another start, or only the one that didn't start? Your settings are very high, but if they worked for 15 flights prior, then they obviously work/ed.

I'd give Barry a call.
Old 04-08-2014, 06:04 AM
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When you get flames at switchover, it's usually because pump pw is too high.
If a lower pump pw doesn't seem to work for you, instead of raising it, you should raise preheat fuel %
Raising pump pw increases the fuel sent to the igniter, which won't be able to burn it all, and the unburnt fuel will pool up in the engine waiting for the rpms to spool up (that happens during switchover) and then it will be sprayed outside the engine and ignited. Raising preheat fuel, instead, will send more fuel to the vaporizers, which will be able to burn almost all of the fuel properly, avoiding pooling.

So to sum it up, lower the pump pw and raise preheat fuel.
Old 04-08-2014, 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by George
During ignition (initially), it's around 2000, then goes to around 6000 as it's heating up. Maybe I'll video data terminal on the start next time I'm out to be 100% certain.
Ok that's the same as mine.
Old 04-08-2014, 06:50 AM
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Maryr, your explanation sounds sensible. I'll try that. I did try lowering the preheat at the advise of an expert (?) and it just flamed out. So are you thinking that preheat fuel is routed thru a different valve than the igniter fuel? And that it goes to the where? Injectors?
Old 04-08-2014, 07:05 AM
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Yes, I experienced the same problem when I was trying to start my 180g in cold weather on 100% diesel fuel. To try and get the ecu to read ignition, I raised the pump value and then I would get flames. So I did what you did and I lowered the preheat fuel, but that's the wrong way to go about it. Preheat fuel is the duty cycle of the main fuel port (injectors) during the preheat phase, while pump power affects both ports.
So if you are getting a slow preheat, odds are your preheat fuel is too low.
Without seeing at least a video of the start, though, these are just pure guesses, so take them with a grain of salt. I am just warning you not to make the same mistake I did and do it reversed

GL fixing your starts!
Old 04-08-2014, 07:48 AM
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Here's a video of the start. It boring in the beginning, waiting for the tongue of flames at the end. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRuN0Nq5InE

I've tried lowering the pump k, and it won't ignite below 30. Must be some variable that's characteristic of this individual installation.

I wonder why that's called "preheat fuel". I imagine "preheat fuel" as meaning fuel that goes thru a tube located near some heat source so that fuel is preheated from the outside as it passes thru the tubing. When that preheated fuel finally reaches an ignition source, it lights more easily. Is this what is really happening inside our turbines? Do the injector tubes get bathed in the ignition flames from a separate burner?

This is a guess, but it sounds like the preheat fuel is atomized more finely, and as the preheat fuel setting is increased(pulse width modulated duty cycle increasing), more of that fine atomized fuel is introduced during ignition phase. Since finely atomized fuel lights more easily, it burns off any excess of the fuel going to the igniter tube (coming from a different valve) thus preventing it from pooling? That in turn leaves no unburned & pooled fuel to be blown out as yellow flame at the start of ramp? I'm guessing here....trying to combine what I do know to what this community knows to become more knowledgeable.

I do think any yellow flames means a richer mix of fuel vs air. Think of a gas welding torch when you start it. First you turn on the acetylene and it burns bright yellow. Then, as you lean it out by cracking open the oxygen, the yellow turns to blue. Just like the turbine.

Pictures are worth a lot, so I put together this attempt to explain what each valve does, and where it's fuel goes. I don't know which turbine this is, I just grabbed the pic off the web. I don't know if this is correct or not...so please speak up anyone with knowledge of the fuel flow in an RC turbine. I will correct it if needed.

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