Zor

Jim,

Did you read post #44 and #47 ?
In my previous post where I show a link there is a conversation in which a fellow having used coloreddope ask "how can one tell nitrate from butyrate" another fellow gives him a method to check. The guy makes the check and comes back saying the dope was butyrate. That is another interesting point. It is well worth browsing around that link for a few minutes.

Both Aircraft Spruce personnel and Leavens Brothers informed me that nitrate only comes in clear and colored dope only comes in buyrate.I now find out that colored nitrate has not been manufactured since the 1940s or 1950s.

Any idea Jim how long ago you got colored nitrate. Could it be that far back?

Do you still have an old container that you can post a picture ?

Time flys faster than our models Hee! Hee!

Zor

Zor

Hello again everyone,

If you are still reading (following) this thread there is entertaining posting in post #43 .

Quoting part of that post ___

No, by your own posted picture there was obvious damage to the horizontal/vertical stab brace wire. Minor, but it fly's in the face of being "without a scratch" (http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_60...23/key_/tm.htm - post #545) and who know what other damage. You have a track record of NOT being very, let's say, "clear".

Unquote ___

It is quite obvious to me that the flying wire is not damaged, not even bent and the little attachment aluminum fitting is still attached to the wire. The suspicion is that the little screw just fell off during flight. During preliminary check before flight I may have overlooked this one little screw and it was not tighten. There is no visible sign of damage to the stab and elevator and that is the way it was.
I certainly did not make any repair in the tree. LOL
Perhaps the next thing we read is "that I placed the model in the trees by hand to take this picture" and do some bragging. If I had done that, I would likely have noticed the detached wire and put it in place.

I have no control on whoever wish to be like that. Make your own judgment.
You never see me write like that.

Here is the picture that is being referenced. You may adjust its size to 100% on your monitor and control the brightness and contrast for a good view.

Zor

Edited by Zor at 10:17 approx to correct a couple of noticed mispelling.

EJWash1

My Feedback: (3)

Are you serious???? Really???

So, NO ONE has ever asked you NOT to post in their thread because of your BAD BEHAVIOR? Yet, you ignore them and do so anyway with absolutely nothing to contribute.

Just one example:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_10..._1/key_/tm.htm

I personally asked you to go away before, and you seem to take pleasure in sticking around and stirring-up trouble.

So, you're saying that you were NEVER thrown-off of R/C Groups, again, for your CHOSEN BAD BEHAVIOR???? AND that you NEVER removed HUNDREDS of your own posts in a hissy-fit resulting from your CHOSEN BAD BEHAVIOR????

WOW! You really out-do yourself on this one.

EJWash

summerwind

EJ,
this was his same behaviour on RCG till he got the boot............it's what he does, and for some reason the mods here haven't noticed.............

EJWash1

My Feedback: (3)

Summerwind,

It's easy to understand that the mods can't read every post. This guy was the sole reason for his demise over at RCG. There's no reason not to believe that he'll do it to himself here at RCU and from the looks of it, soon!

EJWash

Cherokee Flyer

yep, you are right, he loves to cause trouble, just block him!

L.

EJWash1

My Feedback: (3)

I appreciate the advice. The biggest problem with blocking or ignoring a guy like this is that they bombard threads with so many posts. You cruise the forum and see a topic that you find interesting, or that you want to participate in. I've only been back in the hobby two and-a-half years after a twenty-plus year hiatus. It's a HUGE convenience having these forums at the touch of a computer button to see what new techniques and materials are out there. I also get a lot of motivation looking at the talents of the builders that share their work. Then in comes some guy that just has to know-it-all, tell others that they know nothing, and dominate the thread. Blocking and ignoring the one obnoxious pri*k becomes the same as being in a crowded room engaged in conversation and plugging your ears saying, "la-la-la, I can't hear you" whenever he opens his mouth (which is every time someone else speaks). Who knows how many members that would otherwise contribute turn and leave the (virtual) room because of these pontificating blow-hards? Blocking such a blathering self-imposed person throws the continuity of the thread so far off that it becomes unreadable. You end up having no other choice than to leave the room or tell the guy to open a can of SHUT-THE-H-UP! Or, the mods can just simply show them the door...

I was once involved in a conference on micro-management in the workplace. The conclusion was that those that constantly tell others what to do are HORRIBLE at what they are suppose to be doing...

EJWash

Zor

Good evenng doudancer03 and all readers,

I am hoping that, by now, all concerned can draw some conclusions about "nitrate dope" and thetype of applications it is most useful for.

I am grateful to "doudancer03" for a thread that was quite useful and beneficial up to post #43 at which time some contribution became even more helpful.

I contacted Aircraft Spruce and Leavens Brothers enterprises and obtained some of their experience and knowledge to add to my own.

Dozens of models I have built since the 1950s have been covered and finished with aircraft dope.

Aircraft Spruce used to be near Pearson Airport (near , not on) and next door was the facilities for people building their own full size airplanes (example: from kits) or completely rebuilding older airplanes such as Aeronca, Piper, Champs, Etc . . . They have recently relocated at Brantford Airport where the runways are available.

Leavens Brothers are suppliers of about anything one may need to mantain their aircraft and havebeen rebuilding flat opposed engines for decades (Lycoming, Continental). They both sell Randolph dope as used by rebuilders and have experts in finishing or refinishing airplanes.

I believe we must differentiate between "tinted dope" and "colored dope".
The tinted dope is said to be used in the first coats of the finishing process while colored dope is to do the final color scheme.

Reading back this thread, anyone can have a fair evaluation of the use of these products.
I had never heard about Aerodyne supplying colored nitrate dope and my query as to how long ago someone did get some from them remained unanswered. So I know nothing about that. I understand that colored nitrate was available until about the 1950s or early 1960s and went out of usage (and production) due to its flammability.

There is no better method of finishing an airplane than fabric and dope. I have recent pictures of 50 year old models still having a nice finish tight like a drum. Also the reason why full size airplanes use these products.

Contrary to statements written in this thread I do not tell people what to do; only what I do and / orhave done.
The hobbyist (modeler) building and finishing can do what makes him / her comfortable. I so often wrote that alhough it has been claimed otherwise bya few"axe grinding" individuals.

Whatever finishing mehod you decide on, feel free to seek assistance. A private message may help to keep away public contamination.

Best regards to all ___

Zor

cutaway

I'm unclear on how preshrunk makes any difference with completely dry covering methods. With the Dharma, I don't wet it at all after dry covering. I failed to make that clear in the OP. I'm just pulling it snug dry during the attachment phase, then going straight to the dope. The Dharma is supple enough that I find no need to wet it at any point.

I did one wing some time ago wet with it, but found the results no different than working totally dry and the handling was far more cumbersom, so I never did it again.

Cherokee Flyer

When you block him, that is the only one you effect, all the rest are fine.

L.

EJWash1

My Feedback: (3)

That part I understand. Although if/when other posters answer the blocked individual, the thread becomes really confusing - especially when the blocked poster goes on, and, on, and on, etc...

EJWash

Zor

Hello Cutaway,

Bringing the thread back to the topic of nitrate dope and related dope application.

When I buy some fabric I do not bother to search if it is marked as preshrunk or not.

I apply it dry to avoid moisture to get into the wood.

I have triedfour initial methods of covering ___starting with nitrate dope.

1 Seal the wood with dope and apply wet fabric.
2 Apply wet fabric (wrung toavoid dripping) on bare wood.
3 Use the fabric dry on presealed surfaces (caution, read further).
4 Use the fabric dry directly on the wood.

Item 2 above led to bad results due to the wood absorbing too much moisture and and not being stabilized while the dope was curing and tensioning. It resulted in badly warped wings.

The only reason I can see of wetting the fabric might be that some fabric may take compound curves better if wet.

I never had any problem working with dry fabric.
I cannot tell if it is preshrunk or not.
The first two or three coats of dope do loosen the fabric and it sag (appear loose) but soon tighten again.

If an obvious fabric finish is desired, less coats are applied to leave an appearance of woven effect.
If a smooth finish is desired, more coats are applied and the final coats can be wet sanded with 600 or finer grits. The last coat or two are not sanded to keep the full gloss.

Some people wax the dope. Personnally I do not use wax so that if a repair is needed there is no wax in the way. Dope finish keeps improving with time and becomes more glossy looking.

I ususally use method 4 because method 3 sometime leads to small bubbles when the dope cures some gas can be locked in betwenn the outer surface curing and the sealed wood underneath. There is an easy way to remove the bubbles by using a pin to make a tiny hole for the gas to come out while applying some dope and using a spatula to force the gas to escape.

I often use a smooth metal blade to spread the dope evenly immediatly after applying the dope with a smooth brush (high quality brush that does not loose its hair).

I do not spray dope resulting in minute particle in the atmosphere that I may inhale. I brush it on and usea fan to keep supplying fresh air in the brushing area and I provide good ventilation to the fan(s).

The contaminated air has to go outdoor (wide open window) and fresh air come in from the opposite direction.

I love doping and observing the results.

Zor

P.S.: Note to moderators and management of the forum.
I will not have hurt feelings if your good judgment urges you to remove my postings.
Please also kindly pay attention to out of topic postings in this thread.
Thanks.

EJWash1

My Feedback: (3)

EJWash

Zor

Hello cloudancer03,

By now you know that there is no problem "getting thisstuff" (Aircraft dope).

Many retailers (local or closest hobby stores) do not carry dope anymore due to so few bobbyists using it. Sometime it is an easy out to quote "I cannot get it:" while in reality there is not enough sales to justify carrying the line.

I just bought two pints of colored dope from the local LHS because he has reduced his sale price to 2/3 of what was his regular selling price. $17.00 down to $12.00 .He is getting out of carrying dope and trying to move out his remaining stock.

It is still expansive since many more coats are needed compared to the product used by airplane rebuilders.

Part of the situation is that the hobbyist often does not need much dope and the retailers to rebuilders often do not carry smaller sizes than a gallon and 5 gallons container size.

Regards de Zor

P.S.: Lots of good info in this thead.I encourage the readers to readevery postings from the beginning.

Cherokee Flyer

True; I have been using silk since the 50's, and my father for many years before that, we always put it on wet. then with the shrink of the material and the dope the finish ws taught and strong. You get a gret deal of added strength with silk and dope. I am still flying my last silk project (am getting ready to start another since finding Darma silk) and it was built in 1975.

L.

Oh yes if Zor has said something intelligent, i don't know because he is blocked.

Zor

Addressed to all but not a reply to anyone as usually shown at the bottom right of the posting.

Last Christmas I tried to find a genuine silk scarf to give as a Xmas present.
I must have gone to a dozen or more stores.

I was watching also for any pure white 100% genuine silk from the worms.

No dice anywhere but at one store it was marked as "genuine silk".

A little scarf abou 60" long and 18" wide printed in multicolors..

The price was $119.99 . Not practical to cover model airplanes.

Lucky are those who can find genuine silk these days to cover their model airplanes.

What is marked as silk these days is an imitation in terms of appearacne, finish, touch and sheen.
A couple of store managers said they believe it is a treastment of polyester fabric.

I bought some light polyester fabric 45" wide for $4.95 a yard ( a yard is 0.91 of a meter for the metric people).

I used some of this material to cover and dope the wings of my Skybolt. It worked just fine.

Regards to all the nice people from Zor.

byjoe

My Feedback: (3)

I have a problem with nitrate dope .I mixed 50/50 with thinner,The nitrate jelled up . Has any one have that happened? I used Sig Nitrate and thinner.

Zor

HelloCherokee Flyer,

I always try to write intelligently based on experience and knowledge.

Not everyone think so .

Zor

P.S.: Am I blocked ?

Zor

byjoe,

I did use Sig nitrate but did not dilute it 50 / 50 as Iwas not spraying it. I appliy it with brushes.

I did not experience any "jelling" before application.

I now use Randolph products and the lightest weight Ceconite fabric.

This reduced the needed product to one third (1/3), reduced the cost to one third and reduced the labor and time to one third.

Talking to someone at Sig by telephone I found out that Sig dos not manufacture the dope.
They pack it with their own name and in the case of butyrate they add the colors.

You can figure out why so much more volume(so many more coats) are needed for a proper finish.

Regards de Zor

LesUyeda

I have a problem with nitrate dope .I mixed 50/50 with thinner,The nitrate jelled up

The right tool for the right job.

Either the thinner you used was not for nitrate, or the "nitrate" was not really nitrate.

Les

TFF

In my experience if you use lacquer thinner with dope it will do the jelly thing; others have been luckier. I only buy Butyrate thinner as it is compatible for both Nitrate and Butyrate dope, but the same cant be said for nitrate thinner. Hobby dope is just repackaged Real airplane dope. Long gone are the days of real Aerogloss and others where the demand was high enough for a custom blend. One reason the cost is high is that repackagers still have to buy certified for real airplane dope.

byjoe

My Feedback: (3)

Thanks for the replay. I am using Sig Butyrate thinner. I tried using about 25 % and it still jells.

Zor

A note here for all readers,

The local LHS here had both Sig nitrate and butyrate (which he is getting rid of) but was carrying only one type of Sig thinner.

I do not know if Sig was selling two types (formulation) of thinner.

Randolph have two types of thinner . One for nitrate and another one for butyrate.

Since Randolph is a brand used by full size plane recoverers they must have a reason to have different thinners.

I do not know that this is relevant to the "gel" (gelling) problem. I have doubts about that.

The reason for the gel occurrence remains unknown and as of now no one else has posted having seen the problem.

Zor

Zor

byjoe,

So you are using "Sig Butyrate thinner".

I did not know that Sig had thinner specifically for butyrate dope.

The Sig thinner that I had bought was forthree types of dope according to the labelling on the container.

Sig Supercoat which I understand to be their butyrate......
Lite coat which I do not know what that is .....
Nitrate dope

Please read the labelling in the attached picture.

Zor

byjoe

My Feedback: (3)

I found acetone will dissolves the gel ,I then add thinner. It works.

Thanks too all that replied.