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  1. #1

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    aliphatic resin vs cyanoacrylic

    I am getting ready to build a Sig Something Extra, which would be my second kit build in the last year. I built a Tiger 2 with CA and was not quite pleased with how it turned out. I made a lot of rookie mistakes. I grew up with my dad using cyanoacrylic glues (Jet, and Zap mainly). Therefore, I have build my models with CA+ just because that is what I know. However, recently I have read a lot about people using aliphatic resin (Elmers Wood Glue, or Tight bond). As i start to pin the Something Extra to the board I am thinking real hard about using tight bond. My main reason is so I have more time to check my joints before the glue dries. I think this would give me a little more time to set things and keep straight. I also read that wood glue is great for gap filling. I dont want to use it as an excuse for making sloppy joints, but I do see it as an added bonus.

    Any one have any pointers? Are the two glues interchangeable? Should I just stay away and just continue to use a medium CA. I am not really concerned about the fumes of CA that never seemed to bother me. However I definitely wouldn't miss the scaly fingers, from getting sloppy.




  2. #2
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    RE: aliphatic resin vs cyanoacrylic

    Tite Bond has been the glue of choice for many many years. CA came on the market and made building alot quicker. In todays world, some modelers do not use CA for medical reasons and still use nothing but Tite Bond. Then there are modelers like myself that use both. I use the Dave Smith CA, thick stuff that allows me a full 20 seconds to make any final adjustments for installing my wing ribs to the spars. When I switch to the sheeting, I switch to the Tite Bond. By using the Tite Bond I can do all the adjusting I need to and when it dry's, it is rock solid. The other up side to Tite Bond, the cost. You can get a huge bottle of it at the Home Depot for 4 bucks and you will be able to build several planes befor needing any more. The down side, Tite Bond takes time to dry. I will do all my doublers and sheeting and plan my building so these parts will dry over night and be ready for me in the mourning. The other up side to Tite Bond, is it will sand alot easier than CA. Good Luck, Dave
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  3. #3

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    RE: aliphatic resin vs cyanoacrylic

    I use both Titebond and CA. I use ca ony in the places that are hard to clamp and hold straight. When I sheeted the H-stab and fin on my GP Extra 300 recently, I did both sides at the same time and placed them between my building board and a leftover piece of corian couner top. I also added about 40lbs of weight to make sure it was pressed firmly. When I took them out they were perfectly flat and true.

    For sheeting on the wing and curved surfaces I place the sheeting and stack magazines on top of the sheeting. I let them hang off the edge on the leading edge and it contours to the ribs perfectly, no pins needed.

    As for CA and kicker, (I really perfer Bob Smith stuff) I use them a little, to reduce the fumes of the kicker and to make it last longer, I recently started using an old eye drop container, just a drop it all it takes.

  4. #4
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    RE: aliphatic resin vs cyanoacrylic

    I haven't had a bottle of Elmers or Titebond in the shop in a decade. Iuse CA for most things that I don't need working time. For gluing parts to foam ( leading and training edges, root ribs, tip ribs, servo mounts ) I use poly glue. For glueing fuse doublers or anything that is flat and requires weighting down I use poly too. For sheeting foam wings I use epoxy laminating resin. When I need epoxy glue ( Very seldom ) I mix a little milled fiber and cabosil in the epoxy resin. I havent done a built up wing in years but when I do I use thin CA for the structure and poly for the sheeting.
    Of course it's true, I read it on the Internet.

  5. #5
    Zor's Avatar
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    RE: aliphatic resin vs cyanoacrylic




    ORIGINAL: GruntboyX



    I am getting ready to build a Sig Something Extra, which would be my second kit build in the last year. I built a Tiger 2 with CA and was not quite pleased with how it turned out. I made a lot of rookie mistakes. I grew up with my dad using cyanoacrylic glues (Jet, and Zap mainly). Therefore, I have build my models with CA+ just because that is what I know. However, recently I have read a lot about people using aliphatic resin (Elmers Wood Glue, or Tight bond). As i start to pin the Something Extra to the board I am thinking real hard about using tight bond. My main reason is so I have more time to check my joints before the glue dries. I think this would give me a little more time to set things and keep straight. I also read that wood glue is great for gap filling. I dont want to use it as an excuse for making sloppy joints, but I do see it as an added bonus.



    Any one have any pointers? Are the two glues interchangeable? Should I just stay away and just continue to use a medium CA. I am not really concerned about the fumes of CA that never seemed to bother me. However I definitely wouldn't miss the scaly fingers, from getting sloppy.





    GruntboyX,



    I am not clear as to what you expect in this thread you just initiated.



    Do you wish to read what others are using whether they give their reason(s) or not ?



    Are you wishing that others will guide you or suggest to you what you should use ?



    Are you expecting to read about the ;physical properties of the different glues available ?



    Are you hoping for recommendations on what type of glue to use at the diffeent locations of the build ?



    Do you wish recommendations on the gluing technique that reduces the damages in a crash ?



    Do you always fit the parts to be glued so that the fit is good in your judgment ?



    What part (percentage) of such a fit is in actual contact even with pressure (clamping or weight) ?



    If it is not in contact 100% then a glue that can fill non-contact areas would have a better grab to each part.



    Have you considered the nature of the adhesion of a glue to the material intended to be joined ?



    How much of a glue coming out of its container remains to form the joint ? That can be easily tested.



    How much of it ends in the atmoshere (fumes) compared to how much remain forming the joint.



    Is the area grabbed (adhered to by the glue) important to the strength of a joint ?



    If you think about all the above subjects and evaluate them in your mind you are well under way to take your own decision as to what type of glue to use, where to use them, how to apply then making a joint with results that are light weight and strong.



    Keep in mind also that the covering and finish of you model(s) has a lot to contribute to have a model that can last for a long time with minimum repairs needed in abvormal return to earth.



    Best regard to you,



    Zor






  6. #6
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    RE: aliphatic resin vs cyanoacrylic




    This was a double posting of the previous one due to server problems.

    I removed this copy on 12 Feb 2012 at 01:39 Eastern Standard Time

    Zor


  7. #7
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    RE: aliphatic resin vs cyanoacrylic

    Gruntboy, my good man, don't be impressed with important sounding words such as aliphatic resin - lab rats in white coats refer to it that way on the rows of glass bottles on shelves, and in theirMSDS sheets ......referrelative="t" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" filled="f" stroked="f"> ath o:extrusionok="f" gradientshapeok="t" o:connecttype="rect">ath>. We just call it normal wood glue. >>


    It all depends what you want to glue. For normal planes with less than about 1.8m wingI use cyano (thin one) for glueing the ribs, leading and trailing edges in place - that is direct wood-wood contact and thin cyano is excellent - been doing it for 40 years like that - you can use wood glue but cyano is fast (instant) and strong as it also penetrates the wood better than aliphatic resin based glues - which takes hours to cure (dry out).>>


    For joining the wing halves, glueing the firewall, wing dowels, wing mounting nuts etc you need to use epoxy otherwise you are bound to have something coming apart when flying - and gravity will complete the cycle.....
    For joining the wing halves together you can use glass matting and epoxy resin.

    >>

    Do not apply cyano to still wet wood glue – will make a mess. You can apply wood glue over cyno if you want to close small gaps perhaps – but no glue should be use as a filler – better off to make a neat joint. Epoxy is a good, strong filler but is heavy – use it sparingly as well.>>

    Remember, any glue is only as strong as the contact area it is exposed to – filling large gaps is not always going to make the joint stronger….any glue is at its strongest when only a thin layer is applied to 2 well matching surfaces.

    Also bear in mind we are building model aircraft and for the majority we dont need the strength that is required to glue a full scale400 ton Airbus A380 together..


    Happy building

    Bundu
    >>

    >>

    My experience is that continental drift sometimes causes the Earth to jump up and knock a plane out of the sky......

  8. #8

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    RE: aliphatic resin vs cyanoacrylic

    I have had good results with this: http://www.teamaeroscale.com/aerobond.html (Aerobond). Saw where the guy building the giant Chipmunk said it was good stuff so I ordered some. Fastest setting white glue I have ever used. More expensive than the wood glues but cheaper than ca. Also use the rest, ca, ambroid, epoxy etc.

    John

  9. #9
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    RE: aliphatic resin vs cyanoacrylic

    Adhesives used for Model Building


    Good rule of thumb.


  10. #10

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    RE: aliphatic resin vs cyanoacrylic


    ORIGINAL: SeamusG

    Adhesives used for Model Building


    Good rule of thumb.


    Very nice link, did not know CA was not nitro safe


  11. #11

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    RE: aliphatic resin vs cyanoacrylic

    G8er - Raw ntiro will break down CA but it's really nothing to worry about unless you're using 30% fuel and pouring it raw all over exposed glue joints. I generally don't recommend doing that.
    Work is what I do for the love of it. A job is how I pay for it.
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  12. #12

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    RE: aliphatic resin vs cyanoacrylic


    That was an excellent resource. I also found a copy of There are No Secrets by Harry Higley. On Page 10 he gives a very nice chart for various adhesives and their best uses. Both Airfield Models and Harry Higley seem to agree that Aliphatic Resin is the best choice for small interior wood joints. So I think I am going to yield to the advice of experienced builders and give wood glue a shot on my next build. I am not saying CA is a bad glue, but both resources agree that it allows you to make mistakes faster. Which in my limited experience, I can relate to. Also, wood glue is cheep and I can run to any hardware store and pick up some.

    However, I am thinking about performing an experiment to evaluate the two glue technologies. Everyone talks about the fumes, and cure times of the two glues; however, no one can say how they age under the extreme conditions a model plane under goes. I have seen planes just spontaneously explode in the air, and the common thread is they were older models. I have access to some environmental chambers that constantly cycle from -40 to 85C to simulate environmental conditions on industrial electronics. I am thinking about making half dozen joints with CA, and Wood Glue and let them ride along for a 1000h in the chamber. Maybe its a worthless experiment that really wouldn't tell us anything. Planes do experience a wide range of temperature variations, Especially if you fly in the winter and summer.

    I am also thinking about a way to test repeated stress. something that can vibrate the joints at 10khz. I am thinking that CA will age better, but don't have a way to prove it.

    Maybe this data might already be available from the various manufactures.

    What do you guys think a waste of time?


  13. #13
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    RE: aliphatic resin vs cyanoacrylic

    Some time back I did a comparison of CA (thin), 30-min epoxy, Titebond (std), Titebond II, Titebond III and SIGMENT (Ambroid). I used a butt joint (no dado). Nothing emerged to counter the opinions stated by Airfield Models or Harry Higley (I have 10 HH books). So rather than try to remember my results I just use the link to Airfield Models




  14. #14

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    RE: aliphatic resin vs cyanoacrylic

    I have tried all the mentioned glues myself. One that has not been mentioned is Weldbond. This is my "white glue" of choice. You use to be able to buy it a Lowes or Home Depot but not any more. I found it at Ace Hardware and bought a 16oz bottle.

    This glue sets up fast in warm weather. Like in just a couple of hours its dry. No overnight drying needed. It is fuel proof. I have used it to coat the engine compartment before. It works as a canopy glue. You can coat two pieces of wood and heat them up and they will bond together. I have done this with fusealage doublers. If you have an Ace Hardware near you buy a small bottle and experiment.I promise you will be impressed. I have also used it to "glass" the center section of a couple of wings when I was low on epoxy. I didn't use glass cloth but .010 pillow ticking cotton cloth. Absolutly no problems with wing strength. One of the planes I did this on is still flying today. And that was about 15 years ago I did that. Here's a link.

    http://www.acehardware.com/product/i...ductId=1409500
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    RE: aliphatic resin vs cyanoacrylic

    I forgot to add that you can water this glue down a SMALL amount and it will flow in crevesses like leading edge sheeting on the inside. I also like to get a large syringe from the pet store with a #18 needle (IIRC) and grind the sharp tip off and use the needle to put the glue just where I need it. A side note is this. Don't clean the syringe with soapy water. The soap makes the rubber seal swell and ruins the tool. Just warm water is all you need.
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  16. #16

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    RE: aliphatic resin vs cyanoacrylic

    Those are some pretty tall claims. I have a ton of ace hardware stores near me. I will swing by on the way home from work and pick up a bottle. The customer reviews were pretty high. Is the glue heavy?


  17. #17
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    RE: aliphatic resin vs cyanoacrylic


    ORIGINAL: ratshooter

    I have tried all the mentioned glues myself. One that has not been mentioned is Weldbond. This is my "white glue" of choice. You use to be able to buy it a Lowes or Home Depot but not any more. I found it at Ace Hardware and bought a 16oz bottle.

    This glue sets up fast in warm weather. Like in just a couple of hours its dry. No overnight drying needed. It is fuel proof. I have used it to coat the engine compartment before. It works as a canopy glue. You can coat two pieces of wood and heat them up and they will bond together. I have done this with fusealage doublers. If you have an Ace Hardware near you buy a small bottle and experiment.I promise you will be impressed. I have also used it to "glass" the center section of a couple of wings when I was low on epoxy. I didn't use glass cloth but .010 pillow ticking cotton cloth. Absolutly no problems with wing strength. One of the planes I did this on is still flying today. And that was about 15 years ago I did that. Here's a link.

    http://www.acehardware.com/product/i...ductId=1409500
    Weldbond is a very useful glue that binds just about anything to anything.

    It was not mentioned that it dries crystal clear even though it is white from the container when applied.
    It is not brittle when cured and easy to sand; ideal for laminating.

    I often suspected that RP Z56 actually is Wekdbond under another name.

    Many usage in model building.

    Zor

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    RE: aliphatic resin vs cyanoacrylic

    I think Zor is right. I have RC56 and Weldbond and they seem identical to me. It's good stuff but I've noticed it stays a little flexible. That's good for some things but I don't know how much I would trust it for things where the glue area is small and the part may be flexing. For example, I'm not sure I would trust it for truss-work. It's probably fine but the only way I'd have to test it is to actually build a model with it and see if it holds together.
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  19. #19
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    RE: aliphatic resin vs cyanoacrylic


    ORIGINAL: CafeenMan

    I think Zor is right. I have RC56 and Weldbond and they seem identical to me. It's good stuff but I've noticed it stays a little flexible. That's good for some things but I don't know how much I would trust it for things where the glue area is small and the part may be flexing. For example, I'm not sure I would trust it for truss-work. It's probably fine but the only way I'd have to test it is to actually build a model with it and see if it holds together.
    I have RC56 as well and that is what led me to compare.
    I used both side by side to glue a pair of two identical parts and could not notice any difference.

    Things that can use Weldbond ___
    Wheel covers,
    Lights on wing tips and top of rudder,
    Simulatged guns on leading edges of wings,
    Simulated radio antennas on models,
    Many things inside the cabin (cockpit), instument panels, seats, most cockpit details,
    ..........
    Most anything that needs a clear glue and is not subjected to strain or vital physical effort.

    In laminating, a bit of water (just a drop or two per cubic centimeter) as a solvent makes the Weldbond easy to spread evently between layers of lamination ___example: fuselage doublers.

    Inexpensive __the big container in the picture I posted cost me $2.00 .

    No ___I do not sell nor work for Weldbond. I just recognize a good product when I find one.

    Zor

  20. #20

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    RE: aliphatic resin vs cyanoacrylic

    I have used nothing but Weldbond and epoxy to build several planes and never had a bit of a problem. And that includes using WB to glue the sheer webbing on the wing spars. For cap strips I like to coat the rib almost to both ends and CA the ends of the cap strips. Its fast. I use the syringe I mentioned earlier and make like a welding bead around all of my joints.

    And the WB does give the impression of being flexable but I don't think it is. I bought a PT 40 off a kid that had built it with CA. Every time you bumped it something popped or cracked. I ended up stripping it down and reglueing every joint could get to.

    A small bottle is cheap to buy. You may not like it. Its just a suggestion to go with the other glues listed.

    GruntboyXI can't tell that the glue is any heavier than any other wood glue. A lot is determined by how you use it and in what quantities. When making a D tube wing I like to squirt it in each bay and swirl it so every joint has a coat of glue on it. Thats probably not needed. And I can't feel any weight gain after the glue dries. I do add just a little water so it will flow just a little better when doing this.
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    RE: aliphatic resin vs cyanoacrylic

    I have used RC56 to build a Guillows B-17 20 years ago. I never finished it and a few months ago I pulled it out to finish building. What I found is the glue gets rubbery after 20 years. When it started to turn to rubber I dont know, but the plane was stored dry in the basement. The CA I used turned brittle on it, and many of the joints had to be redone. I never sanded the parts so shaping the fin was a chore as I had to slice off the rubbery glue since it was screwing with the shaping.

    With that, the joints were good, but too flexible IMO to be used for structural joints. The CA turning brittle, not sure if it was the kicker, or just lack of moisture that killed the joints.
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  22. #22

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    RE: aliphatic resin vs cyanoacrylic

    I would have to agree that CA does get brittle with time. I did pick up a bottle of weldbond today. It reminds me of elmers white glue. Seems like neat stuff.


    I think I am going to make a glue bonds and see how they age in the environmental chambers.


  23. #23
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    RE: aliphatic resin vs cyanoacrylic

    I generally use three different types of glues on any one plane. First, the wings and fuselage are framed up using carpenter's glue. Second, firewall, wing halves, landing gear blocks and tail feathers are glued with epoxy. And third, any joint that has to be bonded instantly (usually because I can't get a clamp on it other than my hands) gets CA. I also use CA to harden holes in wood that are to receive a screw of some sort. They each have their distinct uses and I would be at a loss if I had to do a kit with any one of them unavailable.
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  24. #24

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    RE: aliphatic resin vs cyanoacrylic

    My 2 cents,

    I use tite bond, CA thin, thick, epoxy, contact cement, gorila glue, It just depents on what I am building with, matrial wise. Like sheeting, a tite bond job.. Gluing ribs to spar, Balsa spars, then CA thin, spruce spars, then thick CA .. Gluing balsa sheeting to foam wing calls for epoxy or for the brave, contact cement. Glueing spars into a foam wing gorila glue work best just scrap off the foaming glue flush b4 it sets, otherwise you'll be in for a time with the sanding block.
    Ply Bhds, Firewalls, landing gear blocks, wing mounts, and most Plywood to something, I use 30 Min Epoxy, not the 5 min stuff it seems to be not as strong.

    For me, only one glue would be a tuff one.. I am glad we have all these tpyes, it was'nt always like this, used to b only Tite bond, or ambroid..

    Chip

  25. #25

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    RE: aliphatic resin vs cyanoacrylic

    My 2 cents,

    I use tite bond, CA thin, thick, epoxy, contact cement, gorila glue, It just depents on what I am building with, matrial wise. Like sheeting, a tite bond job.. Gluing ribs to spar, Balsa spars, then CA thin, spruce spars, then thick CA .. Gluing balsa sheeting to foam wing calls for epoxy or for the brave, contact cement. Glueing spars into a foam wing gorila glue work best just scrap off the foaming glue flush b4 it sets, otherwise you'll be in for a time with the sanding block.
    Ply Bhds, Firewalls, landing gear blocks, wing mounts, and most Plywood to something, I use 30 Min Epoxy, not the 5 min stuff it seems to be not as strong.

    For me, only one glue would be a tuff one.. I am glad we have all these tpyes, it was'nt always like this, used to b only Tite bond, or ambroid..

    Chip


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