mesaflyer

Ok thanks

bigtim

My Feedback: (13)

at least a week before applying the WB poly over the sealed balsa,I have actually applied WB poly over thicker Balsa sheeting with no visible warping, but for the thinner sheeting like 1/16-3/32 a sealer is a good way to protect against the extra moisture.

so a suggestion on sealing the wood with Deft in Calif there has been allot of materials that have gone away but Deft isn't one of them,at least the finishes, the brush on is available at the big box stores as well as the local paint stores

what I have gone with is there satin in a spray can for sealing, it goes on way faster(less exposure to the material) and actually a bit lighter, I was finding that my brushed on sealer was going on way too heavy for the job it was intended

I also paint and do finish carpentry so this is familiar territory for me, so after a light spray down on the surface, I allowed it to dry, flip it, and spray the other side, after a few hours to dry a light sanding to smooth the surface for glassing 120G paper

I then let them sit for a week(just to make sure) before the WB poly fiberglass treatment,I too had some bubbling in a couple of areas when I rushed the glassing, but I think it might have also been that I put way too much of the brushing lacquer down when sealing the wood, and it had not had a chance to fully cure,I was brushing on 2 full coats to seal the wood, and I feel at this point that is way too much of the Deft

after using the spray cans a med. coat is enough to cover the wood enough to get it done, a airbrush could be used but I would rather just get the can so I don't have to clean out my spray gun with lacquer thinner, my main reason for going with the WB material is toxic exposure to my self and my family since my shop is in the garage the stink from just 1 coat of the sealer is enough to get the place smelling really bad, I open the garage door and turn on my industrial fan when I am doing this job.

the WB poly has minimal odor and now that I have dialed in my technique for using it I am happy with the results I have gotten so far, it took a few projects to really get used to the separate steps with the different the materials.
when applying the Varathane Diamond I also ise a 2" paint brush so I don't get any streaky lines that need to be sanded later, and it also get the job done quicker.

I have let my P-47 sit in the sun for extended times with no ill effects so far the latest is my rehab of a poorly built TF P-40

mesaflyer

This Zinsser product is what I used for sanding sealer. Its shellac based and dries in just a few minutes, can says can be recoated in 45 min to an hour, but I guess not: http://www.lowes.com/pd_236441-90-82...ler&facetInfo=


I believe this is the product that Gray Beard was referring to, and the Lowes site says not available in So. Calif., at least when I punch in my zip code:
http://www.lowes.com/pd_84833-1075-0...eft&facetInfo=

I am defiantly going to try something else next time, and I like the idea of just using lacquer sanding sealer. Makes sense to me. My shop is out back of the garage, and I don’t have to worry about the smell.

bigtim

My Feedback: (13)

mesa the sanding sealer might not be available in the deft because it has a high solids content but the satin finish coat material might be, it does the same thing, the difference is the SS has fillers to fill the wood grain before finishing furniture,I do know the SS spray cans are not available in Cal now, its why I use the satin spray cans as a alternative.

I use the satin because the brush on SS is hard to find up here in N.Cal as well, check with Home Depot they carry the Deft line, I usually get mine from my local paint store but I have seen it at the Depot as well

Gray Beard

My Feedback: (-1)

That's the stuff. The Sanding Lacquer and Sanding lacquer sealer are the same product except the sealer has more of the solids, I use them both and it's pretty much 6 of one and half dozen of the other as to what one works better. Just love the EPA in Calif. When club members were going to Vegas we would put in our orders for items we could no longer get in Calif. I had to jump through hoops to get the Kangaroo skin hunting boots I used. Ordered them from one place, had them sent to a friend then sent to me from him. They were worth it until they started being made in China!! {my last pair!}Now they aren't worth the price.

mesaflyer

I appreciate all the info on this. Bigtim, you may not remember, but I PM'd you a few years ago about the bubbling on my plane. You had a lot of good info. Same for you Gray Beard.

Since I will probably be doing a fiberglass job every other year at best, at least for now, I'll probably just make a "Vegas" run with my wife. We don't gamble much, but she does like to put a few bucks down on the Big Wheel. She also likes the reptile store (we used to raise them as a hobby/side job) there in Vegas, because they have animals that you can't get in CA either, like hedge hogs for example.

Anyway, back to sanding my mustang. The resin sanding is not too bad. Figured out I can get the worst of it by using my palm sander, and then finish off by hand sanding. The wing is completed, took me about an hour. But I did sand down to the balsa in a few places (wasn't careful) but an easy fix.

Thanks again

Gray Beard

My Feedback: (-1)

My wife and I don't gamble either, most people that live here don't or just a little. On the other side of that coin I know a lot of big time gamblers too. Shows on the other hand are usually outstanding, even the cheaper shows are good. Save your money and get good seats for Jersey Boys or one of the top shows. There are also some of the top shows that are stinkers too.
Yesterday a buddy and I were talking about a lot of the items we weren't able to get in Calif. He started pulling out different paint strippers you can't get there, you know, the ones that really work. There are a lot of items here out of state you can't get. If you come here or Arizona give it a lot of though, make up a list and import a good stash of can't gets. I don't use it myself but the Balsarite type of products was one of the items the guys in my clubs always wanted.

scale only 4 me

My Feedback: (158)

"Frazee" still sells real Lacquar in CA,,, I think

thomas.crown

I was in an automotive paint store in Oregon the other day and they had close-out rattle can laquer for $3 a can. I would prefer to use a paint gun, but for that price... They don'tsell laquer (in cans) to the public and it's super expensive now. Spray cans are OK for them to sell - I don't get it.

I asked the guy about tints for paint and he mixed up a half pint and gave it to me. It's supposed to be pure pigment. I added a little to my sanding sealer. Since it adds no weight I'm thinking I can have a uniform base color and perhaps trim a coat of paint off what I use and what the plane will have to carry around. I already had my wing glassed before I stumbled onto the pigment. I'll spread the word if it's a miracle. So far it looks promising. You just have to ensure you don't use too much pigmentor the sealer won't dry quickly.

A warm day today - maybe I can get the fuse done?

mesaflyer

Hope that tint works out for you, let us know.

Bob Paris

My Feedback: (13)

Hi guys,
I just finished using .6 oz. glass cloth and water based urathane. I used playing cards to wipe off the excess and it left a very light coating on the glass cloth. I then used talcum powder and water based urathane to fill in the weave of the class cloth...and I was very happy with the results. I added lots of talcum powder to the urathane, then just brushed it on. It sanded with ease and no bad smell at all...and the plus also...the water based urathane dries very fast compared to resin. I like the strength that the cloth gives to the balsa wood and easy to cover with paint. I monokoted the wings, and gave my local paint dealer a piece of monokote to match with acrilic paint. I then use shaker can regular urathane to cover over the acrilic paint to fuel proof it...and it came out very acceptable.

There are lots of ways to cover your models...most work quite will, and this one works great for me.

Soft Landings Always,
Bobby of Maui

mesaflyer

Bobby,
I used water based urethane on my first plane. The urethane worked just fine. It was the sanding sealer that gave me the bubbling problem.

Your P-38 looks very nice. What kit is it? Does it have retracts?

Bob Paris

My Feedback: (13)

Hay MesaFlyer,
I laid out the K&B cloth on the airframe, using my hand and stretched it out over all the compound curves nearly perfect. Then I took a nice 1-1/2" brush and laid on the water based varathane. I started at one end...brushing only in one dirction, until I had all the cloth soaked and covered fully. You will need to hold on to the starting end for a while, until you have a good part of the cloth covered, to keep it from moving. You should have no bubbles in the cloth at all, and if you do, cover a smaller section of airframe. After this...I took normal playing cards...and wiped the excess varathane off the airframe. You may need to change the playing cards often...so don't be afraid to grab a new playing card when the one your using gets wet and/or absorbes the varathane. Again...and in the same direction I brushed on the varathane, continued to wipe off all the excess varathane...holding on to the cloth to keep it from moving, with the playing cards. You want to remove all the excess varathane you can, so the cloth is held on with a thin, light coating of liquid and its a LIGHT THIN coat your looking for.

I started with the bottom first...then both sides and last the top. The last picture is the nose of the pilot pod, finished, ready for paint. It has .6 oz glass cloth on 100% of the pod, and 2 oz glass cloth from the wing leading edge forward.

After the varathane is dried, lightly sand it. You will not need to sand much at this point, because if you laid down the cloth properly and used minimal varathane, you will not need to sand much to get a nice finish. You can go ahead and sand off the excess cloth and make it smooth...and you can also redo the nose section, or highly compounded curves, with another layer of cloth and varathane to cover every thing. After this is done...you need to fill in the weave of the fiberglass cloth. Do not over sand...or you will sand right through the .6 oz/sq/yard cloth, back to basa wood. Believe me...you can over sand very easily.

Now some folks will use auto sanding filler, high volume sanding filler, and this works too. There are lots of ways to do this and I added talcum powder to the water based varathane (mine took two coats) and sanded this with 220 grit wet and dry sanding paper. Again...be carfull not to sand down to the weave of the cloth, or you will need to add more mix and re-sand.

I like K&B glass cloth, for its consistant and a better quality then others I've tried. On the bottom of the forward fuse, and on the nose, I usually will put on a layer of 2 oz. cloth...same as above, for added protection. My P-38 came out a bit tail heavy, so I added a good second layer on the nose pilot pod and bottom forward of the model.

Above all...don't be in a rush...let things get good and dry before moving on.

The varathane in warm weather will be dry to the touch within four hours...at least mine was. I live in Hawai'i, and it was in the 70~80 F., with humidity near the 65% range during the process.

This works for me, but I've covered several kits I built this way...and learned what works for me. Remember, there are lots of ways to do this and all work. A buddy of mine uses two part finishing sanding resin, to lay down his fiberglass cloth (2 to 1 mix), for his model, and it came out very nice. He also used water based varathane and talcum powder to fill in his weave, and stated that shaker can auto high volume primer is heavy, and why he used water based varathane and talcum powder to fill in the weave.

My kit is a highly modified Nitro Planes P-38. I removed the covering, covered the wings with Monokote, and glassed the engine nacelles and pilot pod. While the wings were uncovered...I need to reglue everything...and it needed it too. Retracts were added (Spring Air...the kit is fixed geared), added a removable stabilizer (the ARF had a fixed Stab, glued to each nacelle, onboard glow and dual receivers & batteries. 90" wing span, and 18#, w/two K&B .61 Twisters w/Perry pumps. Mostly DuBro and Sulivan products and 16 oz. glow tanks. Robart struts and scale wheels rounded out the model.

The model was painted with Davoe "Regency" olive green, matched to Monokote flat olive green, and blue, flat-white, yellow and flat-black, Krylon shaker can paint for the rest of the model. After I sprayed the olive green, I covered the water based acrilic Regency paint with shaker can "Satin" polyurathane (oil based paint) for fuel profing. The shaker can Krylon is not affected that much with glow fuel. My turbo charger covers where painted with Testers paint (I had lots of color mixing here with the turbo chargers to look right), then all was over sprayed with the satin. The object is thin coats of paint...its easy to over do the painting...so two light thin layers of paint usualy do the job for me.

Soft Landings Always,
Bobby of Maui

bigtim

My Feedback: (13)

Bobby did you seal the wood before you glassed with the Varathane or did you just paint it directly onto the unsealed wood,covered in glass of course.

the big worry is having a water based material warping the balsa,I have used the Varathane Diamond over thicker sheeting 3/32+ but over the thinner stuff 1/16 I have always sealed the wood before glassing with water based materials

Bob Paris

My Feedback: (13)

Hay BigTim,
I have only used water based varatane over built up airframes and fully balsa sheeted wings, with glass weaved cloth. I've never had it warp, or had to seal the balsa wood prior to using water based varathane. Please understand...I claim to be no expert on the subject...just that I know what has worked for me...so far. This is a new way of covering my models and started using water based varathane, when I started to get bad reactions to fiberglass resin and resin dust. I like the results, the fast drying of the water based varathane and simple clean up. I always use disposable gloves that I get at Costco when using CA glues and finishing my models with paint or varathane.

I'm not sure if this answered your question...

Soft Landings Always,
Bobby of Maui

bigtim

My Feedback: (13)

thats great I have been sealing the balsa with a brushing lacquer the DEFT material but might just go with the strait poly the label on your poly looks a little different than what I buy in Ca.

Varathane does have 2 lines of there WB poly so yours might be the other one I use the Diamond finish because its supposed to be more alcohol resistant not proof but its pretty tough and when it drys its hard as stone the P-38 looks sweet,of course you always do clean work

thomas.crown

I have mixed feelings about the tint and I'm not sure why. I used it under and on top of the glass. It seems to fill a bit better and is easier to see where you've missed or gone light. The fuse was almost totally white (my tint color) when finished and I used very little tint. Easy to tell when your're getting close to balsa when sanding. I will definitely do it again that way in a bit more controlled way so I can really tell if there is a difference. It definitely gives a nice base color for the color coats without having to add another coat of paint. If weight is an issue, I'd definitely use tint. It's really surprising how much weight a coat of paint adds. I'll have to do a weight check between coats just for grins, but it's multiple ounces for this .60 size I'm working on I'd bet. With the power available in current engines weight isn't quite as critical as it was 30 years ago, but lighter is usually not a bad thing no matter what engine you're running.

One other thing I tried was using Scotchbrite pads for some of the sanding and it worked really well. I used a medium "grit" and it's almost impossible to go too far. You have to REALLYnot be paying attention and after getting that far in the building process that just isn't happening here. I ended up starting with paper, switching to the Scotchbrite (great for LE's etc.) and finished with fine grit paper. I did a .60 size wing with a total of less than an hour of sanding - ready to prime. I just primed the fuse too. This was a sanding challenge since it has no straight surfaces - it's allcompound curves andit took about the same. Couldn't have done it as easily without the Scotchbrite. I can't imagine how long it would have taken if I had used resin.Yikes!! I would still be sanding next week.

bigtim

My Feedback: (13)

another alternative to scotchbrite pads is the sandblaster pads, there a foam pad thats a little thicker than 1/8" and they go around compound curves well also, you can also wash them like the scotch pads to get rid of the dust, but they last quite a bit longer and don't leave any of the hairs the scotch pads do when they get old.
they also come in several grit ranges like regular sandpaper

mesaflyer

Hey Bobby, if your still out there, I don't get to my computer as much as I used to. Anyway, I guess I should have clarified what I was describing when I said "bubbles", because the problem I had was blisters from being in the hot sun. I didn't have any problem using WB poly, that was real easy, just brushed on 5-6 coats. But the finish blistered several months later after it was painted. And it still continues to get small blisters to this day. Someday, if I don't crash the plane, I'm going to strip it and start over, maybe. That's a lot of work.

Bob Paris

My Feedback: (13)

Hay Mesaflyer,
I'm still here...but so far...I've not had any bubbles form in the sun. That would be a disaster on any model...has any other modeler had the same issues with water based Urathane in the sun ? I live where the sun can bake a model...but so far...no issues.

Soft Landings Always,
Bobby of Maui

thomas.crown

Here's the (almost) finished product using all laquer based paints. It still needs the clearcoat and the engine and other mechanics. I only did a quickie paint job since I intend to sacrifice the fuse to make a fiberglass mold. It took a LONG time to scratch build this fuse, so I don't want to have to make another to build my mold. I hope to get it airborne in a week or two.

I can already see how durable the finish is since I've been banging it around the shop. No dings that even show so far and it will be even better after the clearcoat. I can finally move on to a new project!

mesaflyer

Bobby,
I have heard of others having blister problems, but as I understand it, most of those were due to not waiting long enough for the WB poly to cure before applying the finish, and the "out gassing" caused the blisters. That"s not the case with mine, as mine sat for almost a year before I started painting.

Bob Paris

My Feedback: (13)

Hay Mesaflyer,
My model sat for at least three weeks before I painted it, and I had no blistering at all. The water based Urathane dries to the touch in a couple of hours, when the temps are up near 80' F. But you may have hit the reason some blister and causes lots of re-work. Waiting for the finish to fully cure is maybe what we need to do. I waited a week before I painted my Invasion stripes...and the same on all surfaces I painted over, with other colors. It took a month to paint my model and I'm pleased with the results.

Water based Urathane is not fuel proof...even with five coats. The stand I made for my model is painted with five coats of water based Urathane and it got sticky with I cleaned if off with cleaner. Its still good...but something to keep after, and keep clean.

The next model I cover...I'm going to use the other type of water based urathane you showed me and see what that does for me.

I'm dialing in my P-38, working off the squawks and test runing the engines. I installed Perry pumps on this model and surprised at how well they do the job. I've on-board glow and I'm dealing with this, as well as testing out props for the airframe. I started out with 12x6 Master Airscrew Syimitar wood props, and now moved over to 12x7 S2 series fiberglassed props. Better pull with the S2 series. Its getting close to the first flight.

Soft Landings Always,
Bobby of Maui

bigtim

My Feedback: (13)

love that stand!

mesaflyer

I agree.

And very nice plane too Bobby.

I've been sanding and priming and sanding the control surfaces on my Mustang. I'm at the point that since I did not do any scale detail (built it light as I could for speed and ease of landings) I think I'm just going to give it a good sanding, finish prime, and paint it. It will have a few dents and dings, but what the heck, so do the real ones!

I went to the Chino, CA air show this past weekend. Beautiful warbirds there. Had a couple P-38's, several mustangs, and one of my favorites, a Sea Fury that did some real nice aerobatic flying. There was also two Spit's. One looked just like yours Tim, but the other had what I believe are Israeli markings (single blue star). One thing I noticed about that Spit is that it had a retractable tail wheel. That was a new one for me, I thought the tail wheel was not retractable on Spit's, but I'm no expert.

Anyway, nice P-38 you have there Bobby, and let us know how it flies.