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Monokote....Never Again

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Old 04-15-2012, 04:28 PM
  #51
ratshooter
 
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Default RE: Monokote....Never Again

You know Mike all I did was post what Idid to get a better covering job and you seemed to be offended by my extra effort to get a good covering job. If you don't like monokote then don't use it. I admit after a 10 year period away from the hobby I hadn't noticed it's not called "Super Monokote" anymore. This is the third plane I have built in the year and a half since I have been back. The first plane did have a smallwrinkle problem. I figured it was my fault for being in a hurry to get a flying plane. The second plane turned out much better because I spent a little more time making sure it was dust free.

On the third and last plane I made a real effort to make sure I had a clean, smooth airframe to cover. Plus I made sure that Iwasn't relying on the shrinkage to correct formy not getting it semi tight to start with.Sorry if spending a little time to make sure you are covering a clean piece of wood is offensive to you. But that iswhat I will do in the future.

I came here to post something positive for theOP in the hopes that he might read what I wroteand see if maybe part of his problem with MK mightbe his own doing. That was all.

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"Call me lazy"
You got it bud. Your own words.
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Old 04-15-2012, 07:26 PM
  #52
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Default RE: Monokote....Never Again

Itoo make every attempt to get all the dust off the airframe before covering. After using compressed air to remove as much as possible, I also wipe the entire airframe down with a tack rag. Then again before covering each section/panel.

Ditto on the getting the film stretched as tightly as possible while attaching, minimizing any wrinkles or slack film. Then not a lot of shrinking is necessary.

I will admit covering with Monokote is not easy to do well, but if you practice and be patient it works just fine. Since I'm new to this hobby (this is my 3rd year of building &flying RC planes) I have no experience with the "old" Monokote but have had great success with the new stuff.

To be fair, my favorite iron-on covering is neither Monokote nor Ultracote. It's 21st Century Fabric. A LOTmore expensive but it applies well, and looks better on scale type aircraft, IMHO . AJ-3 Cub should NOT be shiny!

Mark
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Old 04-16-2012, 03:54 AM
  #53
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Default RE: Monokote....Never Again


Quote:
ORIGINAL: ratshooter

You know Mike all I did was post what I did to get a better covering job and you seemed to be offended by my extra effort to get a good covering job. If you don't like monokote then don't use it. I admit after a 10 year period away from the hobby I hadn't noticed it's not called ''Super Monokote'' anymore. This is the third plane I have built in the year and a half since I have been back. The first plane did have a small wrinkle problem. I figured it was my fault for being in a hurry to get a flying plane. The second plane turned out much better because I spent a little more time making sure it was dust free.

On the third and last plane I made a real effort to make sure I had a clean, smooth airframe to cover. Plus I made sure that I wasn't relying on the shrinkage to correct for my not getting it semi tight to start with. Sorry if spending a little time to make sure you are covering a clean piece of wood is offensive to you. But that is what I will do in the future.

I came here to post something positive for the OP in the hopes that he might read what I wrote and see if maybe part of his problem with MK might be his own doing. That was all.

Quote:
''Call me lazy''


You got it bud. Your own words.
I think it fair to recognize that not all of us that share their experiences with MK are somehow not being honest about it. I have actually done side-by-side test on some MK that I have and can show a difference. Does that mean that all of it is bad? No, not hardly. I have some good and some bad. Many of us understand surface preparation. I have even used adhesive with some of the bad MK just to be able to get some use out of it instead of throwing it away.

We share our experiences to help others. I think if you get bad MK then you should either contact the seller for a refund or return/replacement or just use it the best you can and you can choose whether you want to purchase more or not. I chose to keep the bad, but since I have been getting bad MK from my supplier I have refrained from purchasing as much of it. I usually on purchase it if there is a color I need that MK has. So far I have not gotten a bad role of other brands of covering.

I don't understand the sensitivity about coverings unless it is the fact that those of us that have spent quite a number of hours with MK and had to re-do our planes might be somewhat sensitive [X(]. You would think it is the classic Ford and Chevy argument I believe our time is valuable and we pay premium prices for our products. When some of the veteran guys here say they have literally burned holes in the MK to attempt to get it to shrink then I do trust their honesty.

I have some MK that will not shrink nor will it adhere without putting adhesive on. I just took it and used it for small 6" patchs and I will eventually use the roll up. The thing that really strikes me as odd is how some are having absolutely no issues with new MK. I would wager this is because of the supplier and where it came from. Some get the good and some get the bad.
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Old 04-16-2012, 04:46 AM
  #54
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Default RE: Monokote....Never Again

How long ago did it change?  As I recall Monokote takes more heat than Ultracoat, but shrinks about the same.  Never did stick as well so lots of wrinkles on wood parts.  Sometimes the adhesive would pull off leaving the clear MonoKote.  In fact the clear and tranparents were the only really good MonoKote.
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Old 04-16-2012, 05:02 AM
  #55
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Default RE: Monokote....Never Again

I just picked up a roll of silver monocote to patch up a p51. This stuff is HORRIBLE! I gave up trying to cover the wing thinking it was me. Not so sure now.
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Old 04-16-2012, 05:33 AM
  #56
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: cvedral

I just picked up a roll of silver monocote to patch up a p51. This stuff is HORRIBLE! I gave up trying to cover the wing thinking it was me. Not so sure now.
If you don't mind me asking, what was "Horrible"about it? Did it not stick? Did it not shrink? Did it wrinkle? I'm thinking about using the silver for the 1st time on a project and would like to know.

Thanks,

Mark

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Old 04-16-2012, 07:40 AM
  #57
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Default RE: Monokote....Never Again

Quote:
I think it fair to recognize that not all of us that share their experiences with MK are somehow not being honest about it.
I guess I don't understand what you are saying. Are you saying my experience that I wrote about is not the truth? If you read it you saw I stated I did have trouble with the first plane I had covered after a 10 year layoff. Thts why I made a real effort to make sure I did everything on my end to be sure I was not the problem. I just reported my experience the way it happened.

After I posted my other response last nightI took my plane down from the ceiling in my garage just to see if I could find any wrinkles or bubbles. Nope, it's just as tight as it was when I hung it up a couple of weeks ago. It's smooth and wrinkle free. The first plane I mentioned would get wrinkles hanging on the ceiling. It was covered in white, orange and lemon yellow. The orange was what always wrinkled. So there is an honest report on MK that I was not all that happy with.

MaybeMK has changed. If it has I will just try to adapt to the way it works now. And I have used Ultracoat, Black Baron and 21st Century fabric. The fabric was just super by the way. I have used the Econokotes and TowerKote. Each one had its own special needs to get a good covering job.

One thing I have noticed is that when I first stated using MK in about 1979 you had to be careful and not let the glue sides touch or they would stick together. Sometimes it stuck to itself so well you had to scrap it. That doesn't seem to be true anymore. Maybe TF had complaints about this and thats why they adjusted the formula. Whoknows?
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Old 04-16-2012, 08:44 AM
  #58
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Default RE: Monokote....Never Again

The stuff I had problems with was a roll of pearl white. I have pearl wine (2 rolls that worked wellexcept if abused the color will smear which I take responsibility for and not concerned). I also have a roll of pearl copper which I haven't opened yet. I have used 2 of the neon colors also and have been happy with them. The neon colors are different and can be finicky but I accept this as they are not so basic of a product and understand that I may have to use extra care or extra prep time or whatever to get something out of the ordinary. Kind of like a "hottie" as an analogy where it looks good but you know its going to be more maintenence and work. You know this going in. Now, with my roll of pearl white, the texture of the film itself is like rough like an orange peel and has a powdery feel to it like coated with a dust of talc. The film that covers backside seems to come off differently. It doesn't stick as good, shrink as good, cut the same, feel the sameor look as good. Nothing about using this stuff is as good. I have used regular colors of monocote without a problem but do notice that some colors handle better than others. I have never tried transparent colors of any kind. I have used one roll of Ultracote. It was green apple. I worked well but didn't seem to go very far as the roll is narrow and I had to cut it lengthwise to cover the wings. I don' think I really care for the protective film on the back, but still undecided about this as I will see how storage and repair jobs go. I would like to know how to recognize a roll of Monocote that may be troublesome without having trouble! I have heard about smell, but I think it all smells. I dont use the word stink like they did cause so far I think it all smells good. The texture of the white pearl I talked about was the best indicator so far that I have witnessed or heard of. Don't know if this occurs in regular colors though, may be a "pearl thing". Pearl wine is not like that though, and I dont think the pearl copper is either. A hobby store 40 miles from here has alot of old dusty Monocote that I may try. They want alot of money though like 18.95 a roll and maybe more for neon. Guess thats why its dusty! But paying to ship back return stuff is expensive and a hassle also I just wish I knew how to predict a good Monocote experience, because when its good, I pesonally think it to be the best. I know if I ever see a regular color that feels like the pearl white I won't use it. I am also done with pearl white itself as I don't want to see this again. Would like to know more about this though, like if anyone has a roll of pearl white different than mine? Has anyone been able to predict a bad experience in some other way?
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Old 04-16-2012, 09:01 AM
  #59
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Default RE: Monokote....Never Again

After reading all the posts it appears that the bad MK is not color specific. Some silver, white, pearl, etc. are bad and some are good. I know the bad roll I have is the quality grade white. I had a roll of purple and it was the nicest I have had. The stuff would go on and shrink and look like glass when completed and to top it all of the stuff could set for months and look just like the day it was put on!

If it is like everything else, companies cut back to almost nothing as far as quality now so we are certainly to get less adhesive because adhesives cost the supplier and they will cut corners at every turn. Not long ago a fellow flyer had maidened a plane with MK and the stuff just started rolling off the airframe and yet it looked so well done. Once he investigated none of the glue was holding to anything.

Happy covering [8D]
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Old 04-16-2012, 09:27 AM
  #60
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Default RE: Monokote....Never Again

Recovered a scratch & dent Topflight P-51 ARF two years ago. Ordered OD and silver Monokote, already had black, white. All worked properly and no wrinkles have appeared during two years of trips to the field.

I have has some metallic colors that were difficult that took extra work but the results were very good. Never thrown away any Monokote.

Monokote requires high heat for proper bonding and shrinking. The small, narrow irons cannot generate enough consistent heat for large areas so they need to be used for tacking edges and molding around corners. A large flat iron (even a WalMart cheapie) works best for large areas of edging and shrinking. Heat guns are fine too for shrinking large areas as long as you cover the edges so the high heat doesn't them pull away, leading to new wrinkles that will never shrink out.

If using the heat gun, use pieces of thin card board (cut up the box the kit/arf came in) as shields over edges or overlaps. Frequently I use wet folded shop cloths on the seams/edges.

I don't doubt some rolls can be defective as any product can be. However I do think technique is the difference between excellent results and failure.
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Old 04-16-2012, 11:14 AM
  #61
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Default RE: Monokote....Never Again


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Luchnia

If it is like everything else, companies cut back to almost nothing as far as quality now so we are certainly to get less adhesive because adhesives cost the supplier and they will cut corners at every turn. Not long ago a fellow flyer had maidened a plane with MK and the stuff just started rolling off the airframe and yet it looked so well done. Once he investigated none of the glue was holding to anything.

Happy covering [8D]
The adhesive and color is one blend on Monokote bonded to the mylar film. If the Monokote rolled off the airframe without taking wood with it or leaving color on the wood, it was not properly applied. If applied by the owner he did it wrong. If applied on a factory built ARF, a worker did it wrong and the supplier should replace the airframe.
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Old 04-16-2012, 05:37 PM
  #62
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I don't doubt some rolls can be defective as any product can be. However I do think technique is the difference between excellent results and failure.



huh?
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Old 04-17-2012, 04:05 AM
  #63
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Default RE: Monokote....Never Again

You can go on and on about improper technique as long as you want, I'm sure Moneycoat's producers just love you guys. I use the same technique for Ultracoat as I would (if I did happen to buy any) for Moneycoat. With MY technique I get excellent results with Ultracoat every time, with Moneycoat not so much. Go figure!
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Old 04-17-2012, 04:32 AM
  #64
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Default RE: Monokote....Never Again

Quote:
I don't doubt some rolls can be defective as any product can be. However I do think technique is the difference between excellent results and failure.
If you believe this then you have to believe that a lot of people once knew how to use Monokote and then forgot, and others remember on some planes but forget on others. I'm not a Monokote basher: I like it and use it sometimes. But there are real problems with many of their rolls. The complaints are real and legitimate, not whining from people who don't know what they are doing. I agree that the problem is quality control, but it's not just "as any product can be." For years, getting a bad roll of Monokote was rare, just as getting a bad roll of other films is rare today. Now, a lot of people are having problems.

We ought to be able to discuss this without saying that people whose experiences don't match ours are incompetent. The fact that some people haven't had problems doesn't mean that the people who do are fools.
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Old 04-17-2012, 04:43 AM
  #65
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Default RE: Monokote....Never Again

I don't see how to put someones comment in my post so that I show what I am responding to. I dont know where the one poster there was coming from where he gave us a lesson in covering and then said that some rolls are defective but the real problem is me???? I was/am confused about this and was trying to respond to that last statement made by quoting it in my post with the cut and paste method. Look again and see my post was one word and a question mark.that word being Huh?
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Old 04-17-2012, 04:49 AM
  #66
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Default RE: Monokote....Never Again




I don't doubt some rolls can be defective as any product can be. However I do think technique is the difference between excellent results and failure.

[/quote]
Huh?(I don't know how you guys do the quote thing, tried to fix this post but I definately using bad technique on this job lol!!!)
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Old 04-17-2012, 11:43 AM
  #67
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Default RE: Monokote....Never Again

I just bought some white monokote from the hobby store and it worked the same as I remember many years ago-just a lot more expensive now.
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Old 04-17-2012, 11:51 AM
  #68
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Default RE: Monokote....Never Again


Quote:
ORIGINAL: mikeh251

I don't see how to put someones comment in my post so that I show what I am responding to. I dont know where the one poster there was coming from where he gave us a lesson in covering and then said that some rolls are defective but the real problem is me???? I was/am confused about this and was trying to respond to that last statement made by quoting it in my post with the cut and paste method. Look again and see my post was one word and a question mark.that word being Huh?
In the upper RHcorner of a post is a button labeled "quote". Press it and a reply window will pop up w/ the original poster's comments.

That is how I did this one of yours.

Mark

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Old 04-17-2012, 11:55 AM
  #69
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: mikeh251

Huh? (I don't know how you guys do the quote thing, tried to fix this post but I definately using bad technique on this job lol!!!)
Mike you can do it 2 ways

1- you just hit that "Quote" icon at the upper right corner of every post and the quoted text will appear in the text box already for you withthe user name you're quoting
or
2- you can copy the text and paste it between the quote brackets, ]quote][/quote[ look for the "quote button ,,, no user name will be there unless you type it in

you must make sure the quote code (open and close) is correct of it may come out funny

good luck, you'll get the hang of it


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Old 04-17-2012, 12:28 PM
  #70
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Default RE: Monokote....Never Again


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot

How long ago did it change? As I recall Monokote takes more heat than Ultracoat, but shrinks about the same. Never did stick as well so lots of wrinkles on wood parts. Sometimes the adhesive would pull off leaving the clear MonoKote. In fact the clear and tranparents were the only really good MonoKote.


Sounds almost like you guys are discussing politicians here......

Reading through this thread I see a number of people had good results and a number of people question the quality of some rolls. To me it appears that this might be a quality consistency problem - maybe MK get their rolls from different suppliers/manufacturers, or the rolls are old and the glue have deteriorated - Personally I don't like to risk messing up a plane where there is a chance the stuff wont work properly - even a 20% chance - fortunately we have other brands and I prefer to purchase H9 or Oracover which I know have given me consistent good quality results for many years on many planes. You get what you pay for - there is no free lunch, not even on the Savanah..........

Cheers

Bundu
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Old 04-18-2012, 05:02 AM
  #71
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Default RE: Monokote....Never Again

test, not sure where to enter text in window?
Quote:
ORIGINAL: Scirocco14


Quote:
ORIGINAL: mikeh251

I don't see how to put someones comment in my post so that I show what I am responding to. I dont know where the one poster there was coming from where he gave us a lesson in covering and then said that some rolls are defective but the real problem is me???? I was/am confused about this and was trying to respond to that last statement made by quoting it in my post with the cut and paste method. Look again and see my post was one word and a question mark.that word being Huh?
In the upper RHcorner of a post is a button labeled "quote". Press it and a reply window will pop up w/ the original poster's comments.

That is how I did this one of yours.

Mark

ok, now I see. Thanks!!!!
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Old 04-18-2012, 11:56 AM
  #72
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Default RE: Monokote....Never Again

I cant remember the last time I saw so many sensitive people.  I was under the assumption ( and yes I know what that means) that this was a forum for discussing our experianc, both good and bad, in differant areas of this hobby.  The title to the thread seems to be pretty obvious about the content.  So if you personally have read all you want to have read on the subject feel free to bypass the thread. 
Yes. I have read many comments about Monokote over the last few years.  But I havent used it in many years myself and since it was the only brand available at my LHS I thought I would see for myself how it works.  But I guess I was just being lazy when I used it or I would have been able to make it shrink more.  I marvel at the skill of some builders and their ability to use a product I cannot.  But the next time I think I have something to say I am not going to see if someonce had already said it before.   Once again I am going to assume something.  I assume that everyone who is visiting this site has not read everything that has ever been posted.   In my mind if you have read something here so many times it irritrates you to see it again than mabe you spend far to much time on the internet.   So once again, if the thread title is something you are not interested in, just dont read it. 
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Old 04-18-2012, 12:00 PM
  #73
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Default RE: Monokote....Never Again


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Top_Gunn

Quote:
I don't doubt some rolls can be defective as any product can be. However I do think technique is the difference between excellent results and failure.
If you believe this then you have to believe that a lot of people once knew how to use Monokote and then forgot, and others remember on some planes but forget on others. I'm not a Monokote basher: I like it and use it sometimes. But there are real problems with many of their rolls. The complaints are real and legitimate, not whining from people who don't know what they are doing. I agree that the problem is quality control, but it's not just "as any product can be." For years, getting a bad roll of Monokote was rare, just as getting a bad roll of other films is rare today. Now, a lot of people are having problems.

We ought to be able to discuss this without saying that people whose experiences don't match ours are incompetent. The fact that some people haven't had problems doesn't mean that the people who do are fools.
Icouldnt agree more. Very well said.
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Old 04-18-2012, 12:05 PM
  #74
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Default RE: Monokote....Never Again

I covered my Sig SE with MonoKote five years ago (see pic below) and still looks like day one. I have other planes built 7,8 or even 11 years ago (my beloved 4* 40) covered with MK and is the same case, this is why I like it, perhaps not the easiest to apply but if done properly it will last for a long time.

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Old 04-18-2012, 03:36 PM
  #75
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Default RE: Monokote....Never Again

OK, here is my take on the ultra vs MK debate, ultra is easier to work with but does not look as good. MK is harder to work with but looks better. The opacity of MK is very nice, and when compared to ultra, ultra looks almost transparent. My point is if I am going to spend a lot of time building I use MK and spend time covering, because the guys cannot see the inside craftsmanship only the outside
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