Silly question about tissue paper covering
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Silly question about tissue paper covering
Please forgive the naivete of this question. Iam just building my first tissue-paper covered kit (rubberband powered Guillow's bf109) to practice for more expensive RCkits.
When Icover the fusilage with dope and paper, are the paper panels meant to overlap on the ribs and bulkheads? Doesn't that make the edges much thicker and heavier?
Am Imeant to sand down these overlaps?
Or is the amount of weight and extra thickness simply trivial and Ishouldn't worry about this?
Thanks a bunch.
When Icover the fusilage with dope and paper, are the paper panels meant to overlap on the ribs and bulkheads? Doesn't that make the edges much thicker and heavier?
Am Imeant to sand down these overlaps?
Or is the amount of weight and extra thickness simply trivial and Ishouldn't worry about this?
Thanks a bunch.
#2
RE: Silly question about tissue paper covering
Welcome to the site!
No sanding of overlaps.
Check the articles which names start with Tissue:
http://www.pensacolafreeflight.org/page5/page5.html
No sanding of overlaps.
Check the articles which names start with Tissue:
http://www.pensacolafreeflight.org/page5/page5.html
#3
RE: Silly question about tissue paper covering
Those are all GREAT Articles to start with.
A little simpler answer to your question. Yes, the overlaps are thicker, but you're talking the thickness of a couple of strands of hair. Absolutely nothing to be concerined about.
By the way I've been using the UHU glue method for the last two years and I'll never go back to using dope to attach tissue to a model.
A little simpler answer to your question. Yes, the overlaps are thicker, but you're talking the thickness of a couple of strands of hair. Absolutely nothing to be concerined about.
By the way I've been using the UHU glue method for the last two years and I'll never go back to using dope to attach tissue to a model.
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RE: Silly question about tissue paper covering
Thanks, guys.
I just bought some Uhu yesterday.
Please correct me if I am wrong:
For wings and tail, I spread Uhu on the leading and trailing edges and not on the bottoms of these pieces and not on the spars (runners?), correct?
For fuselage, I spread Uhu on the edges of wherever each piece will be placed, be it spar or bulkhead (sorry, I don't know all the terms, yet)?
If Uhu is dried, I activate it with rubbing alcohol. Once dried, I mist with part water and part rubbing alcohol? Then what?
Dope over everything when everything is in place?
And I've heard about using Krylon matt overcoat but some people strongly suggest against it. I'd love some advice. (And I'll read those articles soon - I promise!)
I just bought some Uhu yesterday.
Please correct me if I am wrong:
For wings and tail, I spread Uhu on the leading and trailing edges and not on the bottoms of these pieces and not on the spars (runners?), correct?
For fuselage, I spread Uhu on the edges of wherever each piece will be placed, be it spar or bulkhead (sorry, I don't know all the terms, yet)?
If Uhu is dried, I activate it with rubbing alcohol. Once dried, I mist with part water and part rubbing alcohol? Then what?
Dope over everything when everything is in place?
And I've heard about using Krylon matt overcoat but some people strongly suggest against it. I'd love some advice. (And I'll read those articles soon - I promise!)
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RE: Silly question about tissue paper covering
ORIGINAL: MajorTomski
Those are all GREAT Articles to start with.
A little simpler answer to your question. Yes, the overlaps are thicker, but you're talking the thickness of a couple of strands of hair. Absolutely nothing to be concerined about.
By the way I've been using the UHU glue method for the last two years and I'll never go back to using dope to attach tissue to a model.
Those are all GREAT Articles to start with.
A little simpler answer to your question. Yes, the overlaps are thicker, but you're talking the thickness of a couple of strands of hair. Absolutely nothing to be concerined about.
By the way I've been using the UHU glue method for the last two years and I'll never go back to using dope to attach tissue to a model.
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RE: Silly question about tissue paper covering
I'm not going to say it is right or better....
but I use my son's stick craft glue... glue down the tissue with this and then lightly mist with water.... has worked fin for me....
but I use my son's stick craft glue... glue down the tissue with this and then lightly mist with water.... has worked fin for me....
#7
RE: Silly question about tissue paper covering
I hope your using one large sheet and covering as much as possible with that one sheet.. for examp;le.. one sheet on top of the wing and one on the bottom.
#8
RE: Silly question about tissue paper covering
I'll stick with using a coat or two of dope on the wood framing followed by doping around the edges of the tissue after stretching the tissue across the frame. After the dope has dried and the tissue it securely attached, mist with water and let dry to shrink the tissue. Seal with a layer or two of dope and go fly
#9
RE: Silly question about tissue paper covering
The turning point for me, the difference between an average tissue covering job
and a really good one, was when I started applying the tissue wet.
I apply tissue with dope.
By the way, no questions are silly when you're learning to build better models! - John.
and a really good one, was when I started applying the tissue wet.
I apply tissue with dope.
By the way, no questions are silly when you're learning to build better models! - John.
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RE: Silly question about tissue paper covering
So far I have all the plane papered except the wingtips. Paper is a little baggy and there is more overlap than I would have liked but I think it's okay.
I used Uhu which went on kinda clumpy. Not happy about this.
I could see how thin the paper became and now understand why there is no need to sand it.
What's the best way to shrink the paper? 50/50 water and acrylic dope?
Or stinky, traditional dope? Mixed with what? Paint thinner?
I have an aerosol sprayer (actually, my wife does, but not for long...)
How much will that paper shrink?
I used Uhu which went on kinda clumpy. Not happy about this.
I could see how thin the paper became and now understand why there is no need to sand it.
What's the best way to shrink the paper? 50/50 water and acrylic dope?
Or stinky, traditional dope? Mixed with what? Paint thinner?
I have an aerosol sprayer (actually, my wife does, but not for long...)
How much will that paper shrink?
#11
Banned
RE: Silly question about tissue paper covering
ORIGINAL: ErikMB
Please forgive the naivete of this question. Iam just building my first tissue-paper covered kit (rubberband powered Guillow's bf109) to practice for more expensive RCkits.
When Icover the fusilage with dope and paper, are the paper panels meant to overlap on the ribs and bulkheads? Doesn't that make the edges much thicker and heavier?
Am Imeant to sand down these overlaps?
Or is the amount of weight and extra thickness simply trivial and Ishouldn't worry about this?
Thanks a bunch.
Please forgive the naivete of this question. Iam just building my first tissue-paper covered kit (rubberband powered Guillow's bf109) to practice for more expensive RCkits.
When Icover the fusilage with dope and paper, are the paper panels meant to overlap on the ribs and bulkheads? Doesn't that make the edges much thicker and heavier?
Am Imeant to sand down these overlaps?
Or is the amount of weight and extra thickness simply trivial and Ishouldn't worry about this?
Thanks a bunch.
Zor
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RE: Silly question about tissue paper covering
No worries, and thanks, Zor.
Alright, got the paper shrunk. Had two scares - tore a little hole (wow, it's weak when wet) that I'll have to patch (about 1/2 cm^2) and the paper was so loose and so wet that the top and bottom surfaces of the port hoz stabilizer in the tail were touching thanks to the wetness.
That dried with a spot but they are nice and flat. A little paint and we'll be in business...!
Alright, got the paper shrunk. Had two scares - tore a little hole (wow, it's weak when wet) that I'll have to patch (about 1/2 cm^2) and the paper was so loose and so wet that the top and bottom surfaces of the port hoz stabilizer in the tail were touching thanks to the wetness.
That dried with a spot but they are nice and flat. A little paint and we'll be in business...!
#13
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RE: Silly question about tissue paper covering
ORIGINAL: ErikMB
No worries, and thanks, Zor.
Alright, got the paper shrunk. Had two scares - tore a little hole (wow, it's weak when wet) that I'll have to patch (about 1/2 cm^2) and the paper was so loose and so wet that the top and bottom surfaces of the port hoz stabilizer in the tail were touching thanks to the wetness.
That dried with a spot but they are nice and flat. A little paint and we'll be in business...!
No worries, and thanks, Zor.
Alright, got the paper shrunk. Had two scares - tore a little hole (wow, it's weak when wet) that I'll have to patch (about 1/2 cm^2) and the paper was so loose and so wet that the top and bottom surfaces of the port hoz stabilizer in the tail were touching thanks to the wetness.
That dried with a spot but they are nice and flat. A little paint and we'll be in business...!
I suspect where and how you got the idea of having wet paper.
No surprise you got a hole in it. It is not possible to stretch wet paper and next to impossile to apply it evenly without wrinkles.
Again what I do is just to inform readers. You are a reader; are you not ?
I apply the paper dry, pull on it gently and even it out without wrinkles in the process of gluing it all around.
I then apply another coat of glue. I use nitrate dope but other material can be used for gluing.
If oher than dope is used we must make sure it isa thin coat. We do not wish wrinkles created by thick glue.
After all the periphery has cured I spray the whole surface with a water atomizer like a windex sprayer containing water. Just moisten the paper so it all looks wet but is not soaked.
Let it dry at room temperature. Do not used a hair dryer or any forced air. The covering has to dry on its own evenly.
When fully dry we can apply a coat of nitrate dope using a high quality artist brush (1/2" wide) that does not loose its hair. The dope dries very fast so we have to work fast and brush one way then immediatly at 90 degrees or so to even out the layer.
Dilute the dope so it feels like maple syrup. If you have never used maple syrup then make it a little more fluid than corn syrup. On paper use only the tips of the brush hair. On fabric you can push a little to get the dope to penetrate the fibers.
If you apply a second coat of dope, wait an hour or so. The second coat can be more nitrate or can be butyrate.
Butyrate goes on top of nitrate but never apply nitrate over butyrate. You can try it on your test piece if you made one.
Voila ___questions ?
Zor
.
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RE: Silly question about tissue paper covering
Thanks, Zor. I know Maple Syrup and I have visited Canada, too.
I pretty much followed your process. The hole came from a puncture made by the corner of the box I was using to hold the wings while they dried.
I'm using ezdope or some brand like that. It is acrylic. I used UHU glue for putting down the tissue and CA glue for the frame.
The atomizer I used really soaked the model. I'm a little annoyed. Cheap, crappy quality, made in China.
I did use a stinky, chemical smelling dope for the frame after gluing and before papering. I'll have to use the same dope inside as outside next time. I don't see any harm (yet) in using water-based on top of oil-based.
Next step tonight will be patching that hole, gluing the parts together, and then doping the whole airframe.
Then, after drying for a day or so, I can start with the plastic and card parts.
Can't wait to have the whole plane together so I can show my kids! I'll have to paint it up, too, which will be the most fun part.
The 4 year-old already claimed it for her room. I'm thinking a bf109 with pink for the theater color band (usually white or yellow) since the theater will be her room (and the park). )
I pretty much followed your process. The hole came from a puncture made by the corner of the box I was using to hold the wings while they dried.
I'm using ezdope or some brand like that. It is acrylic. I used UHU glue for putting down the tissue and CA glue for the frame.
The atomizer I used really soaked the model. I'm a little annoyed. Cheap, crappy quality, made in China.
I did use a stinky, chemical smelling dope for the frame after gluing and before papering. I'll have to use the same dope inside as outside next time. I don't see any harm (yet) in using water-based on top of oil-based.
Next step tonight will be patching that hole, gluing the parts together, and then doping the whole airframe.
Then, after drying for a day or so, I can start with the plastic and card parts.
Can't wait to have the whole plane together so I can show my kids! I'll have to paint it up, too, which will be the most fun part.
The 4 year-old already claimed it for her room. I'm thinking a bf109 with pink for the theater color band (usually white or yellow) since the theater will be her room (and the park). )
#15
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RE: Silly question about tissue paper covering
ErickMB,
Since I had first seen you in your other thread I am sort of reading backward in this thread.
So you undersand what I meant about using other glue to cement the paper on and avoid wrinkles in the glued areas.
I have never tried to shrink the paper with a mix of water and acrylic dope.
I never tried to mix it until now. It does not seem to mix very well.
I used only water from the tap.
Has anyone mixed water and dope? What did you experience ?
How much will that paper shrink ?
That is a bit of a confusing expression.
The paper will not change size being glued to a frame.
It will gain tighteness, become nice and unifom like a drum under tension.
The frame (structure) has to be strong enough to resist being pulled out of shape..
Zor
Since I had first seen you in your other thread I am sort of reading backward in this thread.
ORIGINAL: ErikMB
So far I have all the plane papered except the wingtips. Paper is a little baggy and there is more overlap than I would have liked but I think it's okay.
I used Uhu which went on kinda clumpy. Not happy about this.
So far I have all the plane papered except the wingtips. Paper is a little baggy and there is more overlap than I would have liked but I think it's okay.
I used Uhu which went on kinda clumpy. Not happy about this.
I could see how thin the paper became and now understand why there is no need to sand it.
What's the best way to shrink the paper? 50/50 water and acrylic dope?
Or stinky, traditional dope? Mixed with what? Paint thinner?
I have an aerosol sprayer (actually, my wife does, but not for long...)
How much will that paper shrink?
ErickMB,
What's the best way to shrink the paper? 50/50 water and acrylic dope?
Or stinky, traditional dope? Mixed with what? Paint thinner?
I have an aerosol sprayer (actually, my wife does, but not for long...)
How much will that paper shrink?
ErickMB,
I never tried to mix it until now. It does not seem to mix very well.
I used only water from the tap.
Has anyone mixed water and dope? What did you experience ?
How much will that paper shrink ?
That is a bit of a confusing expression.
The paper will not change size being glued to a frame.
It will gain tighteness, become nice and unifom like a drum under tension.
The frame (structure) has to be strong enough to resist being pulled out of shape..
Zor
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RE: Silly question about tissue paper covering
Hi Zor.
Vous ett Francais-Canadian? Just wondering. )
Shrinking - yes, it does shrink in the sense that it tightens. If you take a 1 cm^2 piece of tissue and spray it, it will no longer measure 1 cm^2. When the sides are affixed to something, the shrinkage results in tightening, like a drum, as mentioned before.
I sprayed with a water-soluble dope called ezDope or something like that. It seems to work okay.
The amount of shrinking was nice. My paper was pretty loose and it tightened right up. There are some small openings where I wrapped around a compound shape and I am not happy about that. Lessons learned, thought.
I am curious to see what happens with the dope overcoat. I will be using a water-soluble dope over tissue which is applied with alcohol-soluble glue to a frame doped with paint-thinner-soluble dope Next time I will just use one kind of dope. I was not happy with the UHU glue (though it did reactivate beautifully with isopropl alcohol).
Vous ett Francais-Canadian? Just wondering. )
Shrinking - yes, it does shrink in the sense that it tightens. If you take a 1 cm^2 piece of tissue and spray it, it will no longer measure 1 cm^2. When the sides are affixed to something, the shrinkage results in tightening, like a drum, as mentioned before.
I sprayed with a water-soluble dope called ezDope or something like that. It seems to work okay.
The amount of shrinking was nice. My paper was pretty loose and it tightened right up. There are some small openings where I wrapped around a compound shape and I am not happy about that. Lessons learned, thought.
I am curious to see what happens with the dope overcoat. I will be using a water-soluble dope over tissue which is applied with alcohol-soluble glue to a frame doped with paint-thinner-soluble dope Next time I will just use one kind of dope. I was not happy with the UHU glue (though it did reactivate beautifully with isopropl alcohol).
#17
RE: Silly question about tissue paper covering
I suspect where and how you got the idea of having wet paper.
No surprise you got a hole in it. It is not possible to stretch wet paper and next to impossile to apply it evenly without wrinkles.
No surprise you got a hole in it. It is not possible to stretch wet paper and next to impossile to apply it evenly without wrinkles.
The method I use is:
Using thinners soluble dope (never heard of the other stuff) dope around the EDGE ONLY of the structure where you will
apply the tissue panel, when dry sand it lightly (when you dope balsa it goes all hairy).
Cut the tissue panel to suit with a bit of overlap to work with, scrunch it up in your hand, wet it then gently squeeze out the water.
Unfold the panel CAREFULLY & lay it over the frame. If it falls apart or turns to mush it's not rally model grade tissue.
Dope through the damp tissue to adhere it to the frame, gently pull out the wrinkles as you dope the panel on. If you have trouble getting the edges to stick you can use balsa cement which sticks a bit better, it's really only thick dope & the final coats of dope will even it out.
When it drys it shrinks tightening nicely. Give it a coat or two of thinned (about 30% thinners to full strength dope) waiting for the dope to dry between coats.
Leave it to dry overnight then admire what a good job you have done!
Yes, the work is a bit delicate, we are building model aeroplanes after all, not barns! - John.
#18
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RE: Silly question about tissue paper covering
[quote]ORIGINAL: Boomerang1
= Zor
I suspect where and how you got the idea of having wet paper.
No surprise you got a hole in it. It is not possible to stretch wet paper and next to impossile to apply it evenly without wrinkles.
I suspect where and how you got the idea of having wet paper.
No surprise you got a hole in it. It is not possible to stretch wet paper and next to impossile to apply it evenly without wrinkles.
= boomerang1
Like I said, that was the turning point.
The method I use is:
Using thinners soluble dope (never heard of the other stuff) dope around the EDGE ONLY of the structure where you will
apply the tissue panel, when dry sand it lightly (when you dope balsa it goes all hairy).
Like I said, that was the turning point.
The method I use is:
Using thinners soluble dope (never heard of the other stuff) dope around the EDGE ONLY of the structure where you will
apply the tissue panel, when dry sand it lightly (when you dope balsa it goes all hairy).
Sig dope sold by hobby store is highly diluted. I tried it and I needed three (3) times as much to do the same job (like filling the fabric thickness) compared to genuine aircraft dope as used by full size airplane rebuilders.
The genuine dope does not raise the balsa to be all hairy.
= boomerang1
Cut the tissue panel to suit with a bit of overlap to work with, scrunch it up in your hand, wet it then gently squeeze out the water.
Unfold the panel CAREFULLY & lay it over the frame. If it falls apart or turns to mush it's not rally model grade tissue.
Dope through the damp tissue to adhere it to the frame, gently pull out the wrinkles as you dope the panel on. If you have trouble getting the edges to stick you can use balsa cement which sticks a bit better, it's really only thick dope & the final coats of dope will even it out.
When it drys it shrinks tightening nicely. Give it a coat or two of thinned (about 30% thinners to full strength dope) waiting for the dope to dry between coats.
Leave it to dry overnight then admire what a good job you have done!
Yes, the work is a bit delicate, we are building model aeroplanes after all, not barns! - John.
Cut the tissue panel to suit with a bit of overlap to work with, scrunch it up in your hand, wet it then gently squeeze out the water.
Unfold the panel CAREFULLY & lay it over the frame. If it falls apart or turns to mush it's not rally model grade tissue.
Dope through the damp tissue to adhere it to the frame, gently pull out the wrinkles as you dope the panel on. If you have trouble getting the edges to stick you can use balsa cement which sticks a bit better, it's really only thick dope & the final coats of dope will even it out.
When it drys it shrinks tightening nicely. Give it a coat or two of thinned (about 30% thinners to full strength dope) waiting for the dope to dry between coats.
Leave it to dry overnight then admire what a good job you have done!
Yes, the work is a bit delicate, we are building model aeroplanes after all, not barns! - John.
My description of "how I do (did)" paper covering is just that "a description". Your method also give results you are happy with.
The dope I used was "Aerogloss" and at some time I switched to "Berry Brothers" dope. Berry Brothers was also used by full size airplane refinishers.
As you said "we are building model airplanes, not barns" .
Unfortunately some material suppliers think we are building barns.
The building of model airplanes IS the hobby.
The flying is only the proof of our hobby being successful. ___
Zor
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RE: Silly question about tissue paper covering
I glued together the papered wings, hoz and ver tail. They're not perfectly straight. I'll have to be more careful on the next model.
I used UHU to secure them. I think this may be a mistake so I reinforced with diluted wood glue. Next time I'll use straight wood glue or CA.
I think I was just impatient with the baby crying, wife exhausted, older kid going nuts, and my carpool arriving.
Tonight I will apply the plastic parts like the nose cone and some vents and blisters that make this into a bf109.
Then, a real coat of acrylic dope, not just a diluted one sprayed on.
Then, fly it around with my kid and the appropriate airplane noises and then... the painting to make it look cool!
Once decaled and dried, my kid gets (yet another) model plane to hang in her room! She loves them! That's my girl!!!!
I used UHU to secure them. I think this may be a mistake so I reinforced with diluted wood glue. Next time I'll use straight wood glue or CA.
I think I was just impatient with the baby crying, wife exhausted, older kid going nuts, and my carpool arriving.
Tonight I will apply the plastic parts like the nose cone and some vents and blisters that make this into a bf109.
Then, a real coat of acrylic dope, not just a diluted one sprayed on.
Then, fly it around with my kid and the appropriate airplane noises and then... the painting to make it look cool!
Once decaled and dried, my kid gets (yet another) model plane to hang in her room! She loves them! That's my girl!!!!
#20
Banned
RE: Silly question about tissue paper covering
ORIGINAL: ErikMB
I glued together the papered wings, hoz and ver tail. They're not perfectly straight. I'll have to be more careful on the next model.
I used UHU to secure them. I think this may be a mistake so I reinforced with diluted wood glue. Next time I'll use straight wood glue or CA.
I think I was just impatient with the baby crying, wife exhausted, older kid going nuts, and my carpool arriving.
Tonight I will apply the plastic parts like the nose cone and some vents and blisters that make this into a bf109.
Then, a real coat of acrylic dope, not just a diluted one sprayed on.
Then, fly it around with my kid and the appropriate airplane noises and then... the painting to make it look cool!
Once decaled and dried, my kid gets (yet another) model plane to hang in her room! She loves them! That's my girl!!!!
I glued together the papered wings, hoz and ver tail. They're not perfectly straight. I'll have to be more careful on the next model.
I used UHU to secure them. I think this may be a mistake so I reinforced with diluted wood glue. Next time I'll use straight wood glue or CA.
I think I was just impatient with the baby crying, wife exhausted, older kid going nuts, and my carpool arriving.
Tonight I will apply the plastic parts like the nose cone and some vents and blisters that make this into a bf109.
Then, a real coat of acrylic dope, not just a diluted one sprayed on.
Then, fly it around with my kid and the appropriate airplane noises and then... the painting to make it look cool!
Once decaled and dried, my kid gets (yet another) model plane to hang in her room! She loves them! That's my girl!!!!
Zor
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RE: Silly question about tissue paper covering
She's wonderful. She dresses up in her princess outfits, calls me "Beast" (from Beauty and the Beast), and flies her airplane models that I made with all the appropriate sound effects. Coolest kid ever!
I want this balsa and paper kit to be worthy of her...!
I want this balsa and paper kit to be worthy of her...!
#22
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RE: Silly question about tissue paper covering
ORIGINAL: ErikMB
She's wonderful. She dresses up in her princess outfits, calls me "Beast" (from Beauty and the Beast), and flies her airplane models that I made with all the appropriate sound effects. Coolest kid ever!
I want this balsa and paper kit to be worthy of her...!
She's wonderful. She dresses up in her princess outfits, calls me "Beast" (from Beauty and the Beast), and flies her airplane models that I made with all the appropriate sound effects. Coolest kid ever!
I want this balsa and paper kit to be worthy of her...!
Many female airline pilots started this way.
Zor