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LETS SAVE SIG BEFORE THEY GET SWALLOWED BY THE BIG TWO!!!

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Old 07-26-2012, 03:17 AM
  #176
dodgers72
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Default RE: LETS SAVE SIG BEFORE THEY GET SWALLOWED BY THE BIG TWO!!!

John

"Being swallowed by the big two" could be looked at in different ways.

I realize Horizon hasn't bought out any of the fore mentioned companies but the way I see it "The big two" are the big two because of their leadership in the market. Not just with planes,with all aspects of hobby in general. Hobby superstores if you will.

Lets compare them to Lowes and HomeDepot and Sig to Ace hardware. The Big Guys next to the small guy. With any big business,the bigger it gets the less personal it becomes and instead is more about profit. The people leading the companies aren't in touch with the customers and make decisions based on a piece of paper with charts and numbers on it. At most Ace stores the Owners are often there and want happy customers and it shows.

To me Sig is also like Ace "the small guy" and still very personal. I hear what your saying with your son building the kit and not wanting to take the extra time to sand and finish his model. Chinese products do make it harder to justify building a kit verses assembling an arf. Instant gratification is more and more common. The satisfaction I get with a kit verses an arf is 10 fold. I can stand back after a day of flying and say I built that from a box of wood, it's my creation. Its really to bad he didn't finish his plane I'll bet he would have also had more of a personal attachment to it then his arfs.


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Old 07-26-2012, 06:34 AM
  #177
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Default RE: LETS SAVE SIG BEFORE THEY GET SWALLOWED BY THE BIG TWO!!!

I disagree totally with the young generation characterization. I instruct a course at a university that it titled as an intro to UAV construction. We originally built LT-40s and Somethin Extras. The students ate it up. They all loved building. I usually had about 25-30% females on the roster. Now, we had to shorten down the build time and I combined the build semester with the learn to fly semester. We have some time in the syllabus to build and I always ask their opinions on building, or doing something else. They all want to build. At the end of the semester, they all want longer times for building airplanes. The future model builders are out there. The ARF market may have made it seem that building is some utopia only for the most patient people that they will never meet. Just my opinion and experience with the college aged ones.
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Old 07-26-2012, 07:31 AM
  #178
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Default RE: LETS SAVE SIG BEFORE THEY GET SWALLOWED BY THE BIG TWO!!!

I see your point Chris. Good info all around. We try our best to still listen to the customer and provide them with the best serrvice we can, both from a repair position as well as future products. We have countless people in the field talking to customers at events, trade shows, flyin's etc.

I also still love to build and always will. The gratification as you say is something we cannot get anywhere else. The local clubs are filled with these guys across the country as well. The problem is this is the minority of the business now a days. I really wish it wasn't, but it is.

As for my son, I really wish he would have finished it as well. He loved all of his ARF's that he came up through. He can rig flight controls, set up retacts, and gear up a model. To him that is where he prefers to deliver his "building" as he calls it. Not the same as mine and he is amazed when he watches what I create at times. What he loves is the flying part of it. He flies nearly every day regardless of weather. I have watched him fly in the rain while standing in the garage so the transmitter doesn't get wet. Crazy watching a T-28 come in on final into the driveway and into the garage.

@ blw: I understand that you had a class where students signed up for and paid to build. My question would be would all students in the university want to do that? I sincerelt doubt it. The .5% yes, but the 99.5% no. Hard to acccept the position of one classroom where one had to pay to be a part of as a generalization of what most would like to do. I have a good idea of what our numbers are in the industry and believe me, the kit deal is a thing of the past. When I pay for something I tend to approach it with enthusiasm as well.

I will continue to build until I die. Another unique note is what the new age of modelers calls a kit today. The ARF as we know it is the kit of today. A box of balsa is called scratch building where as in 1980 most who weren't in the hobby would call it a kit. People built stuff then, they do not build today. It is funny, I had a few moderles tell me a few years back that out RTF models were not ready to fly because you had to attach the wing and charge the battery. They felt that was an ARF. New perspective maybe?
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Old 07-26-2012, 07:37 AM
  #179
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Default RE: LETS SAVE SIG BEFORE THEY GET SWALLOWED BY THE BIG TWO!!!

John- sent you a PM
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Old 07-26-2012, 08:28 AM
  #180
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Default RE: LETS SAVE SIG BEFORE THEY GET SWALLOWED BY THE BIG TWO!!!


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Quikturn

I was talking about the Sig Kobra with a fellow modeler and he made the comment that the whole series (Kobra, Kougar, King Kobra) has very nice landing characteristics where the airplane would just stick once on the ground. I noticed that too with my Kobra. I'm not sure what it is about the design but it did land real nice.

Same here, loved just nailing the landings with my Kobra!
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Old 07-26-2012, 08:58 AM
  #181
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Default RE: LETS SAVE SIG BEFORE THEY GET SWALLOWED BY THE BIG TWO!!!

Another thing I see with only ARF's is that most people just throw them away when they crash (assuming its not a pile of toothpicks) when they could be repaired in an afternoon and for less $$. Replacement arf parts are expensive. The problem is these folks have never ever built a model before so they have no clue how to repair and reapply covering. A few weeks ago, I crashed my 4 star due to interference. Wing had minor damage (which is surprising the way it tumbled) but fuse was broken in half, firewall ripped out, and other structural damage from the nose to half way back. Other guys at the field that day, strictly arf owners (never built), told me to throw it away or order a new fuse. Instead, I rebuilt it in a couple of evenings after work and had it right back out and it only cost me a roll of Monokote and a little glue. I had a bag of scrap balsa and ply (I don't throw any scrap away) to handle the rebuild. All you see now is the seam between the original covering and the new covering. I never looked to see what a new fuse would cost, but I'm positive its more than what I spent to fix it. My Fox engine needed another muffler and needle valve from where it nosed into the hard ground and tumbled several feet, but was ok other than that. The way it crashed reminded me of the wipeout in the old 6 Million Dollar Man opening.
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Old 07-26-2012, 10:38 AM
  #182
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Default RE: LETS SAVE SIG BEFORE THEY GET SWALLOWED BY THE BIG TWO!!!

Quote:
Another thing I see with only ARF's is that most people just throw them away when they crash (assuming its not a pile of toothpicks) when they could be repaired in an afternoon and for less $$.  
Not always so.  I build kits and also own a few ARFs. Many ARFs are built so light, in deference to e-power, that they suffer much more in a crash than kit-built aircraft. I dorked a Tango ARF a few weeks ago and what should have been a nose-low hard arrival just about destroyed the lite-ply fuse. It folded like a house of cards. [X(] To repair it would be a stem-to-stern undertaking and make it much heavier so, since everything else is OK, will wait on the back-ordered fuse. $75 tho..., ouch.
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Old 07-26-2012, 11:27 AM
  #183
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Default RE: LETS SAVE SIG BEFORE THEY GET SWALLOWED BY THE BIG TWO!!!

I have a Kougar, Kavalier and a Citabria.

All great flying planes.

One of the reason Sigs ARF's disappeared is the company who was making them started to make crap, which started to give Sig a real bad name, so they dropped the line.

They have been sold I think two times now?

Unfortunately, I think, Hobbico, Great Planes, et al, see the market as ARFs #1, as that is what is selling.

I was happy when they bought Goldberg, thinking the kits would continue to be available. Of course that changed to saddened when they were gone...

I also remember reading a comment from GP in one of the magazines several years ago, that stated some of the companies they purchased actually contacted them, asking "Hey, want to buy us?" as an alternative to closing outright...

Bill S.
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Old 07-26-2012, 11:28 AM
  #184
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Default RE: LETS SAVE SIG BEFORE THEY GET SWALLOWED BY THE BIG TWO!!!

As found most ARF's cannot take the abuse of a solid built kit model of yester-year. Main reason for this is the use of chinese light ply for starters. It is weak to say the least. Light ply from the US is a much higher grade adn stronger, not to mention the use of 5 ply birch plywood as doublers and such in some klt makes. The ARF's will just crunh and the easiest thing to do is to replace the part. Very similar to the older detroit cars from the 60 - 80's to the newer cars of today. Weights are down with lighter and thinner metal in the car. Better engineering allows them to handle crashes better than our old monsters of the past. Evolution is the word. It is continually happening.

I will say I doubt that anyone out there will ever get an ARF of today to last like a quality Sig, Bridi, Great Planes, Top Flite, or Goldberg kit of yesterday. Those models would go for years! The ARF's of today go for a few years, but now many if flown a lot.
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Old 07-26-2012, 12:28 PM
  #185
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Default RE: LETS SAVE SIG BEFORE THEY GET SWALLOWED BY THE BIG TWO!!!

Quote:
ORIGINAL: blw

Dave, sure sounds like you have supported Sig a lot. Any spare kits lying around?
Nope, no spare kits laying around. Nice try though!

Actually I've never had a "spare" kit. I've had kits that weren't built yet. Still have a few. But spare? Does a miser have spare money?

After the growth of the ARF segment and the changing complexion of the planes showing up at RC fields, in our club we're seeing somewhat of a building renaissance. We have several new fliers who are becoming very accomplished builders. It's great to finally have some younger builders to mentor. I've spent a lifetime gathering this knowledge, it's wonderful to share it and save others the pains we went through to learn it. And the plane that I always suggest as a first building project and a great second or later sport plane is the 4* series.

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention. I also have quite a collection of old Sig contest balsa! But none to spare.

Dave
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Old 07-26-2012, 02:00 PM
  #186
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Default RE: LETS SAVE SIG BEFORE THEY GET SWALLOWED BY THE BIG TWO!!!

I was given a Somethin Extra by a guy who was tired of repairing it. I've had a couple of crashes on it too, including a midair. I think the number of crashes is up to 8 so far. It is the ugliest plane at the field with Monokote, Econokoat, and Ultracote patches.

My classes used to be a semester of building with an optional followup semester of being taught to fly. Those were Sig kits. Now, those are combined with emphasis on indoor electrics. I always give the students the option to go in a build direction. I pad syllabus with a lot of time for that. They are Aerosace majors. One of the favorite parts of Aerospace is the national Design, Build, and Fly competition. I'm just saying that building still has appeal for some segments.
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Old 07-26-2012, 06:59 PM
  #187
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Default RE: LETS SAVE SIG BEFORE THEY GET SWALLOWED BY THE BIG TWO!!!

Well guys, I received my kavalier kit today. Impressive since I just ordered it Monday night. The contents are well packed and I'm really surprised at the quality of the cowl, it seems almost twice the thickness of other kits I've built! Based on the instructions and how it's constructed the Kav should be one tough bird no worries with the touch and goes.
Build plans:

Engine Rossi 45

Servos Futaba 3004 throughout

Covering Koverall and paint

Scheme University of Virginia Kavaliers




Now I just have to score some extra brownie points with the wife to get it under way and finished in a timely manner.


Chris
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Old 07-26-2012, 07:21 PM
  #188
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Default RE: LETS SAVE SIG BEFORE THEY GET SWALLOWED BY THE BIG TWO!!!

The only problem with the Kav is the small nose for the gas tank. I love mine even though it was retired.
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Old 07-26-2012, 07:30 PM
  #189
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Default RE: LETS SAVE SIG BEFORE THEY GET SWALLOWED BY THE BIG TWO!!!

Well I hope it glides okay then. Whats the largest tank I'll be able to fit?
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Old 07-27-2012, 02:45 AM
  #190
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Default RE: LETS SAVE SIG BEFORE THEY GET SWALLOWED BY THE BIG TWO!!!

Ordered Sig Citabria on the 24th received on 26th, Wood looks good as well as the die cutting.

RCTen
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Old 07-27-2012, 05:25 AM
  #191
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Default RE: LETS SAVE SIG BEFORE THEY GET SWALLOWED BY THE BIG TWO!!!

RCTen, what are you going to power the Citabria with?

I started with a Magnum GP .44 and hated it (the engine, crap carb). Switched to an OS .48 Four stoke and loved it.

I did try a Saito .65 for a bit, but it was way overpowered and i didn't like it.

I think .52 or so four stroker would be great today.

Bill S.
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Old 07-27-2012, 07:50 AM
  #192
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Default RE: LETS SAVE SIG BEFORE THEY GET SWALLOWED BY THE BIG TWO!!!

Dodgers72, I think I squeezed in an 8oz Sullivan Flex tank, and later a DuBro. I used a Saito 56 four stroke and it sipped fuel anyway.

You can widen the servo hole in the underside of the wing to take 2 servos, side by side. One for each torque rod. Or, better yet, put a servo in each wing. That's what I'm going to do on my next one. This one had only a little over an inch of dihedral. I seem to remember the Kavalier called for around 2 3/4 inches total. Around an inch is plenty for stability and it does great big, round loops, almost axial rolls, will do the hairier to the ground, and tumbles like a dream. The only must do mod for sure is to reinforce the glue area for mounting the tail. Next time, I'm going to have at least 1/4" of wood under the fuselage top for the fin to fit into with lots of glue. The plans only give you the 1/8" balsa fuselage area for gluing and I didn't catch that when I built it. It is a weak area, imo.
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Old 07-27-2012, 09:43 AM
  #193
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Default RE: LETS SAVE SIG BEFORE THEY GET SWALLOWED BY THE BIG TWO!!!


Quote:
ORIGINAL: dodgers72

I can't speak for others but I for one am always looking at/day dreaming about my next project! It seems to me all we have to do to secure Sig is for all of us kit builders and also the people who've wanted to build a kit to place an order. Their kit prices start at less than $50.00 and don't go above $279.99. I think I'll pull my trigger on a 4 star 120. how about anyone else.

I'll skip a couple of fast food dinners for the family see whats already in the freezer and fire up the grill a few more times,that should be plenty to afford the 4 star.

I once had a sig Kougar, hell of a plane, had a piped .61 black head webra on it, I mis judged the bottom side of a knife edge loop and that wasthat. I bought a "Something Extra" but have not built it yet, I may buy the King Kobra.
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Old 07-27-2012, 09:59 AM
  #194
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Default RE: LETS SAVE SIG BEFORE THEY GET SWALLOWED BY THE BIG TWO!!!


Quote:
ORIGINAL: blw

Dodgers72, I think I squeezed in an 8oz Sullivan Flex tank, and later a DuBro. I used a Saito 56 four stroke and it sipped fuel anyway.

You can widen the servo hole in the underside of the wing to take 2 servos, side by side. One for each torque rod. Or, better yet, put a servo in each wing. That's what I'm going to do on my next one. This one had only a little over an inch of dihedral. I seem to remember the Kavalier called for around 2 3/4 inches total. Around an inch is plenty for stability and it does great big, round loops, almost axial rolls, will do the hairier to the ground, and tumbles like a dream. The only must do mod for sure is to reinforce the glue area for mounting the tail. Next time, I'm going to have at least 1/4'' of wood under the fuselage top for the fin to fit into with lots of glue. The plans only give you the 1/8'' balsa fuselage area for gluing and I didn't catch that when I built it. It is a weak area, imo.
blw, thanks for the info. What kind of issues did you have with your fin. Also does the standard rudder have enough area to do knife edges? Two servos in the wing and less dihedral sounds like a good idea too.


Chris
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Old 07-27-2012, 10:24 AM
  #195
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Default RE: LETS SAVE SIG BEFORE THEY GET SWALLOWED BY THE BIG TWO!!!

I had a hard time deciding which kit to get, Four Star 120, King Kobra, or the Kavalier. I want them all but it seemed the Kav was just calling my name. In the past I've been a slow builder and now would like to become more efficient but keep the quality up we'll see if that can be done in combination. I've built kits and assembled arfs and the finished product of the kits have always been more pleasing to me.

We kit builders have less and less options every year. Great Planes has dropped it seems like over half of their kits in the last few years and its time for us to take a stand and remind the industry we're still here. I'm almost 40 yrs old and would guess I am considered young as a kit builder. Some how we need to pass kit building to the next generation and we need simple to build and great flying planes like the Sig line imo to make it possible.





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Old 07-28-2012, 07:25 AM
  #196
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Default RE: LETS SAVE SIG BEFORE THEY GET SWALLOWED BY THE BIG TWO!!!

Chris, the slanted rudder was effective and there were no flying issues. I wasn't proficient enough to do much knife edge stuff, so I don't know. I would guess that it would be adequate without being great. The issue is that there isn't enough fuselage area for gluing the rudder. One option offered is to glue it to the covering. Any slight knock will crack the glue joins if you aren't careful. I'm adding 1/4 " strips under the slot on the fuselage for the rudder to slide in and be glued.
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Old 08-01-2012, 08:05 PM
  #197
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Default RE: LETS SAVE SIG BEFORE THEY GET SWALLOWED BY THE BIG TWO!!!


Quote:
ORIGINAL: kenh3497


Jeff, Does the Caviler and the Commander have the same roots? The Commander was my first plane with a ''new'' generation McCoy 40 in it. It was the plain bearing with the finned case. I remember our club used to take an annual trip to Sig every year with our local dealer. We would pick up fuel, kits, balsa wood and anything else we could get our grubby hands on. Almost forgot the factory tours. That was a lot of fun. It was amazing watching the gals pack kits in boxes. I never could get it all the kit back in the box it came out of!!

Thanks

Ken
Sorry to be so slow responding...busy at work. The short answer is yes.....Claude wanted to discontinue the Kommander and replace it with the Kavalier. But the Kommander was still selling pretty well, so he decided to keep it going a little longer. Many people had trouble with the Kommander landing gear because of the long struts. There is quite a long moment arm there and if they were not glued in well, they would come out on the first bad landing. The Kavalier had the fuse mounted gear and a simple canopy arrangement, better lines etc.... The kit name thing with them starting with a "K" was Claudes trademark....hence the Kadet, Kougar, Klipper, Kobra, Kommander and Kavalier. I designed the Colt and wanted to use a "K"....but Claude wouldn't let me!!

They were wonderful times working out there....it was almost like going to model airplane school and learning from Claude, Maxey Hester, Glenn Sig and Mike Gretz. When I was there in the mid seventies, there were about 150 employees. Every single product was made or packaged right there at the plant, and the only thing purchased ready to use were the cardboard shipping boxes. We even printed the catalogs, instruction books, plans and screened on balsa. There were probably 20 people working in the saw room cutting balsa all day. You could look in one end of the building, and not be able to see the other end for the dust.

These are the kinds of businesses that are being killed by the cheap chinese labor. It is all going to come back and bite us in the ass in the end.

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Old 08-01-2012, 08:21 PM
  #198
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Default RE: LETS SAVE SIG BEFORE THEY GET SWALLOWED BY THE BIG TWO!!!

Jeff, it seems that a lot of Kommander owners also had Kavaliers.
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Old 08-01-2012, 10:30 PM
  #199
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Default RE: LETS SAVE SIG BEFORE THEY GET SWALLOWED BY THE BIG TWO!!!

I always loved the Sig Dope and paint products. I remember when I started using Sig products, it was in the 58, that's when i started building C/L planes. Had a lot of Sig kits through out the years. I do remember when Dubro was called Dumus Brothers.

I'll always remember Maxey Hester and the Sig Ryan STA. A beautiful plane.
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Old 08-05-2012, 03:40 PM
  #200
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Default RE: LETS SAVE SIG BEFORE THEY GET SWALLOWED BY THE BIG TWO!!!

I'm still sitting on one of those fantastic Sig Asto-Hog NIB and I might be hearing it call my name...
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