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What happens if arf and kit building prices meet?

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Old 08-27-2012, 08:46 AM
  #51
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Default RE: What happens if arf and kit building prices meet?

Gerry, I completely agree. I have three in the shop that I'm building for other's.
The real bottom line is do what make's you happy. That's what I do, whether it's a foamie, Kit, ARF, RTC, simply because that's all that matter's
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Old 08-27-2012, 10:26 AM
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Default RE: What happens if arf and kit building prices meet?

This is not gonna happen: On Tower Hobbies, the price of their Ultimate Bipe 40 is now $160.00: A $40.00 increase from $120.00. Their Christen Eagle ARF, comparable to the Ultimate Bipe, is priced at $200.00, only a $40.00 difference from the Ultimate Bipe kit. Since all the covering materials, glues, and accessories have to be purchased when completing the Ultimate kit, the cost of completion far exceeds that of the Christen Eagle ARF. In fact, you can purchase one ARF, and then buy a second ARF for spare parts for the cost of building just one kit.

And another sad twist of fate: I have a friend who is into large scale. He has enough money to pay a professional to build his ARFs and kits, most of which are 1/4 to 1/2 scale. Some of his planes have multi-cylinder glow and gas engines. He recently told me that foamies and park flyers can be purchased cheaply, and will perform the same as his large models. Plus, there is no field required when a parking lot will do. His observation is this: Electric foamies are the wave of the future and kit building will become an obsolete skill. It's a tough reality indeed.
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Old 08-27-2012, 12:10 PM
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Default RE: What happens if arf and kit building prices meet?

I love to build. I noticed that ARFs are now much cheaper to buy than the materials I use to build.
Does it matter to me? Not much. I have considered buying a few balsa ARFs just to try out an airframe, but I will still build and fly from plans and kits.
To me, building is as much a part of the hobby as flying. There is no better feeling than launching and landing something I build myself!
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Old 08-27-2012, 12:25 PM
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Default RE: What happens if arf and kit building prices meet?

I guess my point didnt get across, I bought all these parts separately, they all fit nicley and are going to work together. Price:

Airframe-65.00
Wings-99.00
Stabs-free from local member
Cowling-40.00
Canopy-90.00
Gear 65.00

All of these parts are new except the fuse, that is a 35% Extra 260 for $359.00 how can you go wrong. Yes it took a little work, but less than building, and the funny thing is not all the parts are from thre same manufacturer. So I think before the price of arfs exceeds the price of building we will find that spare parts are now so accessible that for a reasoble price you can piece one together, much like the auto industry is now.
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Old 08-27-2012, 01:40 PM
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Default RE: What happens if arf and kit building prices meet?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: foodstick

I always wonder what will happen when arf prices eventually climb up to the same level as building yourself ?
Didn't the prices meet a few years ago on the other side of the curve when arf prices were coming down?

Kurt
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Old 08-27-2012, 02:08 PM
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Default RE: What happens if arf and kit building prices meet?

For some, building goes hand in hand with flying. I don't factor in the cost of my time to fly the thing, so when building for pleasure I don't factor in my time for that either. It could be viewed that the extra cost to scratch (or kit) build vs ARF'ing could be divided by the hours giving an entertainment cost which would work out to be a fairly cheap way to enjoy those extra hours between work and sleep.

Certain personality types that are attracted to professions that like to bill in 6 minute increments, could be tempted to make a point of letting people know just how much it "cost" for them to "build" the thing, itemising every e-mail they received/sent on the matter, phone calls, consultations with peers etc.

However when building something isn't for pleasure, then I'll look at my time and decide if I'm better off buying it.
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Old 08-27-2012, 05:21 PM
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Default RE: What happens if arf and kit building prices meet?

Then the cost of an arf vs. a kit will be the same? I think I like to build more than I like to fly or I just enjoy building alot. I don't think I would buy a mass produced airplane. What if something was forgotten or done wrong. I put alot of work in a kit and I know everything is as it should be. Also someone else looking at your work as you progress into the build helps too. The joy of that maiden flight, thinking that you built this, cannot be replaced. I don't care if kits double in price, if I want it I'll collect cans if I have to, to get it. I am worried that kits will disappear. If they do I will buy plans and start hoarding balsa. Just my 2 cents. or maybe a nickel. Cause a nickel is only worth 2 cents now?
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Old 08-27-2012, 07:51 PM
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Default RE: What happens if arf and kit building prices meet?

+1
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Old 08-27-2012, 11:29 PM
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Default RE: What happens if arf and kit building prices meet?

Depends of the quality of the build and the class level of the hardware used.


Here is a nose gear for $5.60
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXD842&P=7

...and then here is one for $68.00
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...&I=LXES72&P=ML

They both do the job very well. So it's just a matter of "class" more than function.
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Old 08-27-2012, 11:45 PM
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Default RE: What happens if arf and kit building prices meet?

Check out that second link:

L5ES7212 Robart Fixed Steerable Nosegear w/Fork 3/8" 771.01

Is that a typo???? $771 for a nose gear? Are we talking full-scale here?
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Old 08-28-2012, 12:32 AM
  #61
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Default RE: What happens if arf and kit building prices meet?

That's for twelve of them.
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Old 08-28-2012, 08:11 AM
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Default RE: What happens if arf and kit building prices meet?

Exactly. Someone asked me one time why I build when it would cost so much compared to my hourly rate at work, why not ARF?

But thats like saying "How much did it cost you to read that book?"..........if your doing it for pleasure, I have to ask how much enjoyment did I get out of doing it, not how much did it cost me. Like someone said, some folks will just never understand.

~Dave


Quote:
ORIGINAL: bjr_93tz

For some, building goes hand in hand with flying. I don't factor in the cost of my time to fly the thing, so when building for pleasure I don't factor in my time for that either. It could be viewed that the extra cost to scratch (or kit) build vs ARF'ing could be divided by the hours giving an entertainment cost which would work out to be a fairly cheap way to enjoy those extra hours between work and sleep.

Certain personality types that are attracted to professions that like to bill in 6 minute increments, could be tempted to make a point of letting people know just how much it "cost" for them to "build" the thing, itemising every e-mail they received/sent on the matter, phone calls, consultations with peers etc.

However when building something isn't for pleasure, then I'll look at my time and decide if I'm better off buying it.
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Old 08-28-2012, 09:13 AM
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Default RE: What happens if arf and kit building prices meet?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: AmishWarlord


All of you old farts are living in the past.

''Shows great grandchild an ancient ''DVD'' of building a RC Cub back in 2010.''

''LOL Great grandpaw, you guys sure looked scanny back then, using your hands to build stuff like a baby''.

The future will be to print out a perfect Top Gun scale class airplanes complete with running radial piston or jet engine from your 3D printer for $100 bucks worth of plastic and metal dust.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFFFiB_if18

People are making their kids toys with these printers
at work we make molds and low volume parts with the new plastics that can be extruded
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Old 08-28-2012, 10:18 AM
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Default RE: What happens if arf and kit building prices meet?

Quote:
ORIGINAL: carrellh

Quote:
I always wonder what will happen when arf prices eventually climb up to the same level as building yourself ?
People who want to build will continue to do so; kit, plans, scratch
People who do not want to build will continue to buy RTF, ARF, or models built by individuals in the line above
Price may cause all or some of to buy less but I do not think it will change the build vs buy demographic
I agree with Carrellh we build because we like to build and we like our freedom of choice in design, coverings, etc. ARF and RTF drivers buy them because they like to fly and don't want to take the time to build. Now as for the climb in current pricing, find a catalog from the late seventies or early eighties then find a good inflation calculator. The comparisons may surprise you, they don't look nearly as bad. Look what you paid for a Kraft 4 or 5 channel back then, now compare it with a modern Futaba, JR, Hitec or your favorite brand not listed here. Compare the features and the reliability. Next pick any good engine from that time and compare with today's engines for cost, lifespan, quality and reliability. Look how much the average size of a model airplane has grown since that time. Now what do you have to beef about? Is wood a lot higher than it use to be? Heck yes but how much of it is catching back up with inflation? I know balsa and ply isn't cheap, I just bought some 1/8" X 4" X 48" balsa and got a big surprise! This won't stop me from building new projects just a few more of them will be the obsolete kits I squirreled away. Some will be unfinished I inherited from retired builders who do to health went into the nursing home and didn't want to see a half built airplane go in the trashcan. They may have done things differently than I may have but I can always modify it if I see fit, I'm a builder!

Builders and ARF/RTF fliers aren't the only one affected by higher prices. Just look at smokers today, my father in-law quit smoking 35 - 40 years ago because cigarettes went to 35 cents a pack, look at what people pay today. Unlike cigarettes building airplanes won't kill you or ruin your health, at least not directly. (Discounting Propeller/aircraft strikes, heatstroke, and skin cancer from not using sunscreen!) Anyhow that's my two cents.

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Old 08-28-2012, 10:24 AM
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Default RE: What happens if arf and kit building prices meet?

Just to tweek the ARF/RTF fliers out there: Show me a flying model of a cool airplane that only a hand full were ever built and I'll show you an airplane that is NOT an ARF/RTF! (Gee Bees and assorted pylon racers excluded)
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Old 08-28-2012, 10:35 AM
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Default RE: What happens if arf and kit building prices meet?

Quote:
ORIGINAL: FSFLYER

I really get a kick out of these posts in which people refer to themselves as being on ''Fixed Incomes''. The reality of it is that for the most part we are all on ''Fixed Uncomes''. Some more, some less, some in school, some retired. Unless you come into an inheritance or win the lottery, your basic income is somewhat fixed. Maybe the only other option would be to get a part time job to supplement the hobby addiction.

I agree with some other posters that fixed income has a particular meaning and it applies to retired folks, people collecting a pension, and folks on some sort of disability that do not have the option of a part time job, working overtime or looking for a better paying job due to their particular circumstance.

Yes, most of us have some budget limitations on what we can spend for recreation, but that is not the same as a "fixed income".

Most of us that work have the option of an additional part time job, working overtime, starting a part time business and finding other ways to add to our income so that it is not "fixed". I know a couple of guys who buy R/C stuff at swap meets, off of the on line R/C sites and off of Craigs list and support their hobby by reselling what they dig up.

There is no doubt that funding our great hobby is a little tougher if you are on a limted fixed income.
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Old 08-28-2012, 10:47 AM
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Default RE: What happens if arf and kit building prices meet?

Quote:
ORIGINAL: FlyerInOKC

Just to tweek the ARF/RTF fliers out there: Show me a flying model of a cool airplane that only a hand full were ever built and I'll show you an airplane that is NOT an ARF/RTF! (Gee Bees and assorted pylon racers excluded)

Let's see....Maxford Brandenburg WWI floatplane, the Turbo Raven, Kyosho Macchi M.33, Red Square Models Po-15, Hobby King Avro Arrow jet, Kyosho Ta-152H, Hacker models Osprey 1 seaplane, Icon A-5 seaplane (only two real ones so far... The "Coota" foam seaplane version of the rare Coot A full scale seaplane, The French Dalotel (only two real ones built), the Nitroplanes Rutan Defiant, the Nitroplanes Honda Jet, the Flyboys Models/BP Hobbies giant scale BV-141 ayssemtrical recce aircraft, the vintage foam Cox RF-5 Sportavia (VERY few real ones built) come immediately to mind...would you like me to go on?

Real Ulimate biplanes are pretty rare and there are dozens of ARF versions of it.

What you say is sort of generally true, but there are dozens of exceptions to that rule...making it not that great of a rule...
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Old 08-28-2012, 10:58 AM
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Default RE: What happens if arf and kit building prices meet?

I know a retired modeller that he and his wife are living mostly on Social Security and what his grown son can kick in from his meager salary working in a grocery store. He still models and still flies (now that he got his cataracts fixed). It isn't easy for him but he finds ways of doing it. He buys, sells, and trades a lot at swap meets and fly ins both for himself and others among other things. I have known him for over 35 years and he still can build and fly better than I can after all these years! It really pi$$e$ me off too! I hope he continues to show me up for may years to come!
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Old 08-28-2012, 11:00 AM
  #69
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Default RE: What happens if arf and kit building prices meet?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Thomas B

Quote:
ORIGINAL: FlyerInOKC

Just to tweek the ARF/RTF fliers out there: Show me a flying model of a cool airplane that only a hand full were ever built and I'll show you an airplane that is NOT an ARF/RTF! (Gee Bees and assorted pylon racers excluded)

Let's see....Maxford Brandenburg WWI floatplane, the Turbo Raven, Kyosho Macchi M.33, Red Square Models Po-15, Hobby King Avro Arrow jet, Kyosho Ta-152H, Hacker models Osprey 1 seaplane, Icon A-5 seaplane (only two real ones so far... The ''Coota'' foam seaplane version of the rare Coot A full scale seaplane, The French Dalotel (only two real ones built), the Nitroplanes Rutan Defiant, the Nitroplanes Honda Jet, the Flyboys Models/BP Hobbies giant scale BV-141 ayssemtrical recce aircraft, the vintage foam Cox RF-5 Sportavia (VERY few real ones built) come immediately to mind...would you like me to go on?

Real Ulimate biplanes are pretty rare and there are dozens of ARF versions of it.

What you say is sort of generally true, but there are dozens of exceptions to that rule...making it not that great of a rule...
And may they continue to make a liar out of me on a regular basis!!!!
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Old 08-28-2012, 11:11 AM
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Default RE: What happens if arf and kit building prices meet?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: acerc

Gerry, I completely agree. I have three in the shop that I'm building for other's.
The real bottom line is do what make's you happy. That's what I do, whether it's a foamie, Kit, ARF, RTC, simply because that's all that matter's

Absolutely! I remember when I was an employee working only 40 hours per week, I used to build much more. But there were no ARFs and I built, flew and sold 4 models average per year. The day of the maiden I would have people making offers for the day I would sell it. It was a way to make a buck! You bought all the stuff, you had fun with it, and sold it making a profit! What a country!:-)

Of course that was then. Now I own my company (for over 2 decades) and time is scarce, I do work over 60 hours per week, not 40 anymore:-) And I have 3 hobbies:-) So, I do not fly every week, nor do I build every month. But I can dream that if I ever retire, I might do that, just build models for others, or not, just for me:-)

Life is way too short not to do what you like, or have a job you do not love. My 2 cents.

Gerry
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Old 08-28-2012, 12:12 PM
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Default RE: What happens if arf and kit building prices meet?

They may have been (or being) produced, but generally are out of stock. Seems like every time I look at an ARF I like, they are out of stock. Show me a link to someplace I can actually add a Kyosho TA 152 to my shopping cart right now?
Look at Nitro planes website. 80% of the things planes they sell are out of stock and have been for years. I find it somewhat comical actually.
Quote:
ORIGINAL: Thomas B

Quote:
ORIGINAL: FlyerInOKC

Just to tweek the ARF/RTF fliers out there: Show me a flying model of a cool airplane that only a hand full were ever built and I'll show you an airplane that is NOT an ARF/RTF! (Gee Bees and assorted pylon racers excluded)

Let's see....Maxford Brandenburg WWI floatplane, the Turbo Raven, Kyosho Macchi M.33, Red Square Models Po-15, Hobby King Avro Arrow jet, Kyosho Ta-152H, Hacker models Osprey 1 seaplane, Icon A-5 seaplane (only two real ones so far... The ''Coota'' foam seaplane version of the rare Coot A full scale seaplane, The French Dalotel (only two real ones built), the Nitroplanes Rutan Defiant, the Nitroplanes Honda Jet, the Flyboys Models/BP Hobbies giant scale BV-141 ayssemtrical recce aircraft, the vintage foam Cox RF-5 Sportavia (VERY few real ones built) come immediately to mind...would you like me to go on?

Real Ulimate biplanes are pretty rare and there are dozens of ARF versions of it.

What you say is sort of generally true, but there are dozens of exceptions to that rule...making it not that great of a rule...
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Old 08-28-2012, 12:42 PM
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Default RE: What happens if arf and kit building prices meet?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: vertical grimmace

BLA, BLA, BLA.........................
VG,

The only ARF you should be buying is a Sky Raider Mach II or a Viper (so you can join us for local racing next year).
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Old 08-28-2012, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: vertical grimmace

They may have been (or being) produced, but generally are out of stock. Seems like every time I look at an ARF I like, they are out of stock. Show me a link to someplace I can actually add a Kyosho TA 152 to my shopping cart right now?
Look at Nitro planes website. 80% of the things planes they sell are out of stock and have been for years. I find it somewhat comical actually.
Sounds just like trying to find a lot of kits. I just purchased a Top Flite Sea Fury kit from my LHS last week (left over gift card burning a hole in my pocket). The owner has had in stock for about 6 months. He had ordered special for a gentleman who was unfortunately diagnosed with cancer before he could pick it up. I had been trying to decide if I wanted to build Sea Fury (TF addiction kicking in) when I discovered the kit has been discontinued by T.F. [X(] Suddenly I didn't want to miss out on the kit while one was still available. I have known the shop owner for many years and I agreed to leave the kit at the shop until he can speak with the gent who originally ordered it. If the man still wants it and is able to build it he'll get the kit. (The LHS is more than fair with his loyal customers) The hobby shop owner will then refund or credit back the purchase price I paid (my choice) and I can take cash or pick/order something else if I like. Right, a kit addicted builder with a credit at the LHS we know how long that will last don't we?! If the gentleman who ordered it wants to pass on picking it up the kit is mine.
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Old 08-28-2012, 07:29 PM
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Default RE: What happens if arf and kit building prices meet?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: vertical grimmace

They may have been (or being) produced, but generally are out of stock. Seems like every time I look at an ARF I like, they are out of stock. Show me a link to someplace I can actually add a Kyosho TA 152 to my shopping cart right now?
Look at Nitro planes website. 80% of the things planes they sell are out of stock and have been for years. I find it somewhat comical actually.
Quote:
ORIGINAL: Thomas B

Quote:
ORIGINAL: FlyerInOKC

Just to tweek the ARF/RTF fliers out there: Show me a flying model of a cool airplane that only a hand full were ever built and I'll show you an airplane that is NOT an ARF/RTF! (Gee Bees and assorted pylon racers excluded)

Let's see....Maxford Brandenburg WWI floatplane, the Turbo Raven, Kyosho Macchi M.33, Red Square Models Po-15, Hobby King Avro Arrow jet, Kyosho Ta-152H, Hacker models Osprey 1 seaplane, Icon A-5 seaplane (only two real ones so far... The ''Coota'' foam seaplane version of the rare Coot A full scale seaplane, The French Dalotel (only two real ones built), the Nitroplanes Rutan Defiant, the Nitroplanes Honda Jet, the Flyboys Models/BP Hobbies giant scale BV-141 ayssemtrical recce aircraft, the vintage foam Cox RF-5 Sportavia (VERY few real ones built) come immediately to mind...would you like me to go on?

Real Ulimate biplanes are pretty rare and there are dozens of ARF versions of it.

What you say is sort of generally true, but there are dozens of exceptions to that rule...making it not that great of a rule...
ARFs, both common and unusual, cycle in and out of stock all the time. I have seen every ARF I mentioned in stock at one time or another. Heck, Graves Hobby in Fl had the Kyosho Ta-152h in stock within the last two months. Two of my flying buddies got their Ta-152h models there fairly recently. I predict that Ky will have more in country before too long.

Some of the less common models are obviously not produced in as great a quantity...simple economics of supply and demand.

If you see something you like, strike while iron is hot.

The real point of my post is that unusual aircraft do get made into ARFs, regularly.
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Old 08-29-2012, 06:29 AM
  #75
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Default RE: What happens if arf and kit building prices meet?

OK. Back to the original question; my son just bought me a Super Chipmunk ARF. Fiberglass Fuselage (rounded rear bottom, not squared off like Goldberg), streamlined spats/pants, fiberglass cowl. Price on the Box was $199.95.

Tower Hobbies lists the Goldberg Kit (box of wood) at $189.99.

Add to that any covering materials, glue, added "stuff", and you have well over the cost of the ARF.

I am not an avid ARF fan, but these days, I cannot stay focused on a project long enough to build to the level I consider acceptable, so with this kind of availability, why worry about it???

Les
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