FlyerInOKC

My Feedback: (6)

MTK, I have several scratch projects in development one I hope to start building soon. I see scratch building as building the kit then building the airplane!

Gray Beard

My Feedback: (-1)

I just got a tower talk last week, I think the price has or is now close to the same between the two types, ARF or kit. Most of the guys I fly with couldn't build a kit so it doesn't really mater what the cost is. I have been building from plans for a couple of decades and I'm able to build big planes for a fraction of the cost of either kit or ARF. If someone gives me a kit or I find a great deal I enjoy building them. I also started in the hobby long before ARFs were on the market, if you wanted to fly you had to build. The building is something I enjoy a lot more then the flying so I don't buy ARFs. Most of the guys I know could care less about building and will never try it. I don't see the cost as ever being a factor these days but the prices have closed up and getting close. I about fell over when I saw the price of the foam electric planes. They have really jumped up in price. I now have one of the foam cutters goirish makes and have been making wings and stabs for friends when I have the time. Fantastic machine he builds!!!

FlyerInOKC

My Feedback: (6)

If I remember correctly the kit is usually cheaper and then when you add in everything to finish it is where it passes the ARF. But looking at say a TF 182 I think the kit works out cheaper.

Gray Beard

My Feedback: (-1)

They would consider in a lot of factors like hardware, glues and covering to figure the cost difference. With the Chinakote now being sold that no longer figures in very much. Kits come with good hardware, a lot of ARFs don't come with hardware but they often sell a package of good American hardware. A lot of things to factor in. Most of my builds of planes with a span of 90 inches or under costs about 100 bucks the way I do it. Without all the tools I have at my wood club the cost to build from plans is still under 200 dollars with hardware.
If you don't know how to build or haven't the space to do it then the ARF is still a good way to get into flying instead of building. I used to build on the living room table or kitchen table. Not everyone has an understanding wife though or taught there kids how to look with there eyes and not there hands. Even if kits became way cheaper then an ARF I still don't see people going back to building. It involves work and time plus a good amount of thought and skill.

FlyerInOKC

My Feedback: (6)

I build on a piece of drywall sitting on an old card table in a bedroom or in the den. All the wife asks is I put everything away for the night when I'm finished and clean up. She came up with the idea to store my paraphernalia in two large clear plastic tubs. The exception is I paint in the garage and I prefer to carve stuff like wingtips out there as well. Easier to run a broom over concrete. Some days we sit in the den together she'll sew while I build.

You mentioned making your own foam wings but I always saw foam wings like kissing your sister, what the point? I like built up wings. Then again I'm crazy enough to enjoy enjoy cutting out wing ribs for tapered wings. The last time I did this I cut 2 sets of 19 ribs out of 3/16 balsa with a No. 11 blade. Root rib was 17.75" long and the tip rib was 4.75" long.

Gray Beard

My Feedback: (-1)

Gene sent me one of his auto feed foam cutters. I made up templates for my little AeroWorks electric Extra to learn how to use it. I don't think of these little electrics as real planes, just something to play with at the end of the day. I can cut a foam wing in a mater of minutes, the foam fuse in nothing flat. I do sheet the fuse but I don't even bother covering the wing. I have cut complete planes for guys when they supply me the templates.
I used to buy my kits at club auctions when I could get them for next to nothing. A lot of the older kits had foam core wings. Once sheeted they are every bit as strong and light as a built up wing. I find them a pain in the hinderpoo, compared to a built up wing but they are really strong.
I haven't been a scratch builder in way too many decades. That was something people with a lot of time on there hands did. I am however a plans builder that just buys the plans I like then use there templates to cut the kit then build the plane, it's way easier then scratch building. When I was buying kits at auction for next to nothing I would build those. I was the only builder in three clubs so I was usually the only builder so 10 and 20 dollar kits were great.
Foam cutting is just plane fun. If you have a chance to try it give it a go. I have never cut anything in the size my real planes are but electrics are a hoot. The cutter I got from goirish will cut some really big wings though. I just haven't done it. Yet.

acdii

We are considering making some foam core wings for a B-17 project that would be electric. We have a partially built Royal kit to use for the templates. May make a fiberglass mold of the fuse too. The timing will depend on if we group build a Pica P-40 first. I am putting a material list together for 3 of them. PITA to figure out how much we need since most of the parts dont include the length, only the thickness and width, which means opening up the kit and measuring each part. thinking of just guessing and buying a big bulk batch of each thickness and wing it from there.

FlyerInOKC

My Feedback: (6)

Well years ago in the 70s when foam cores were all the rage and I was a kid; I built a 40 size Jack Stafford P-51D with sheeted foam cores. I haven't seen that kit listed anywhere since. I also built a little fun fly biplane out of MAN or RCM don't remember which that had foam wings that I mail ordered. You had the option of building it as a German or British style airplane. I used the wrong glue trying to assemble the wings and the edge melted a little. The British style had an angled wing tip so I switch to the Brit from the German plane and turned the cores around an epoxied them together and no one was the wiser. Those cores had cost $10 to $15 and I didn't have it to waste. It was painted with Krylon spray paint. I enjoyed both airplanes but decided I liked built up wings better, I still do. I kit, plans, and scratch build depending on the subject. I like the weird and rare so it usually means scratch building and when I do find a plan I still modify it heavily to my whims.

Gray Beard

My Feedback: (-1)

I scratch built a lot of U-Controls and a few free flights. This was long before computers but I had a Vemco Drafting machine and table. Back then kits were numbered in the thousands and there were so many different planes to choose from I gave up designing them. These days anyone that knows how to use a CAD can do it and the plans come out perfectly. I have no computer skills at all so I stick with plans. I'm still just dabbling in the art of foam cutting. It's not my thing but this cutter I got from Gene is outstanding and fun to use. It has a big table though so I don't have it set up all the time so if I'm going to cut foam I have to have a lot of little projects on hand or it's too much to bother with. I did find some guy on the net that designs and sells the templates for cutting some very cool planes. The really good foam, the closed cell blue and pink has to be ordered here, it's not stocked in hardware stores but the white foam is. Not a huge call for foam insulation in Vegas. Our homes are really well insulated but it's done differently here.

acdii

I am contemplating a laser cutter too. Would be nice to cut out ribs and formers in minutes that are perfect than band sawn and sanded.

foodstick

I think laser cutters for kits is probably going to be the future for anybody wanting off beat and old school from now on. Are all the old Nosen warbirds being cut now? I am working on an abandoned p51, and have always thought the P-47s were cool as heck, I have a friend I am TRYING to get worked up enough to build a P47! Hey if you don't have room at home to build them for yourself, try to be an enabler thats my motto !

FlyerInOKC

My Feedback: (6)

I have been doing business with a guy in Indiana named Joe leach. He bought a Helix 50 watt laser cutter with a 8 X 14 table. He has been taking cutting jobs to pay for the cutter. The downside I think the initial lay out was around 10K and then the bulb has limited life. He was having so problems with a loss of cutting power and was working with tech support to resolve it.

fly24-7

The flip side of that is that the kit guy may end up absolutely mortified by the fact that he poured dozens or possibly hundreds of hours in the build for it to be wrecked in seconds. This is another reason why guys don't build that rarely gets acknowledged. They don't want to face the reality that all that work could end up being a very short service life.

acdii

Another way to look at it is if 10 guys bring out a 4*120, and 9 of them are an ARF, and mine is the kit, no one will have one that looks like mine, but there is a good chance that a few will be red and a few will be yellow, and other than the engine, they will all look the same. Same with the LT-40, mine will look totally different from all the others, but any that are an arf will look the same as the other arf. There is a uniqueness to a kit built that you dont get with an arf.

FlyerInOKC

My Feedback: (6)

fly24-7, that is a valid point, but usually those aircraft are known as "hanger queens". Regardless of which way you go once you add the cost of engine, radio, and airplane (ARF or Kit/plans/scratch built) it is still a respectable investment. I think everyone has some crash fears no matter what they fly. I know a lot of builders when they crash are already thinking about the next build or the rebuild on the way to pick up the pieces. A crash isn't necessary terminal for a builder's airplane. I had an airplane that was shot down by radio interference that required a shovel to recover the engine. Half the fuselage was destroyed and the wing suffer about a 1/3 lost. It flew again with the same engine in the same season. I enjoyed the repair as much as the original build! I also took the time to change colors.

Granpooba

My Feedback: (5)

Whatever floats your boat, that is what it will come down to ! Kits or ARF, what is the difference As long as you derive pleasure from them !

FlyerInOKC

My Feedback: (6)

amen!

CafeenMan

What if you just build because you like to build? I can get an ARF for 1/4 the price of some of my scratch built sport planes but it's not about money to me.

The whole ARF vs. Building thing is really moot I think. Back in the day before ARFs (well there was Lanier from a long way back but that's about it), a lot of guys hated building. But they had to because they couldn't buy an ARF of the planes they wanted.

What we have now is pretty awesome I think. The classic big kit manufacturers have all cut their kit lines pretty substantially and mostly offer "price point" kits that are pretty disappointing in my opinion. Not all of them but several. Many others are just gone.

I have a Tower catalog from 1990(ish) and it's got tons more manufacturers than the current catalog.

But the cool thing is that with laser cutting we're getting way more accurate parts than we used to and anyone who can design a model and use a CAD program can produce kits.

Thus there are a lot of small manufacturers making a variety of kits that are on par and in many cases better than the kits we used to get.

Back in the day I always looked for kits like Bridi that used machine cut and sanded parts. Basically cut on a bandsaw and sanded on a disk sander. No die-crunching that by the time you cleaned it up the part was smaller than it was supposed to be.

Earlier this year I bought three kits from BMJR that I've wanted for a while - a Splash-E (already built one for someone else and really liked it), a Duelist MK III 1/2 (tiny version of Dave Platt's Duelist) and the Miles Magister (also designed by Dave Platt).

Haven't started any of them but the kits are really excellent.

If you pick planes you don't really want because it's what you can afford then this is probably the wrong hobby for you. Save your money until you can get what you want.

CafeenMan

My magnetic fixture system has been the biggest boon to my hobby in my lifetime. I can actually afford this hobby now.

LarsL

First off, I want to preface my comment by stating that I love to build and will continue to do so. I have an ARF or two, but while they are fine airplanes, I got them to "fill out" my fleet while I build some models that I really have a passion for.

I'm not sure what you mean by meet? The fact is that for just the kit alone vs. the ARF, apples to apples, ARF's are more expensive than kits. However, factoring in all of the building supplies/materials and time, the kit is more expensive than the ARF. So, if kits become even more expensive or ARFs become less so getting closer in price or as you say, "meeting," as long as we are not talking foamy but proper "built up" kits that are truely comparable, kits will be under even more pressure. I don't see the cost difference between ARFs and kits shrinking in any significant way.

A different question might be what if kits become way cheaper than they are now and/or ARF's get way more expensive. In other words, what if the cost difference becomes much more significant? If the kit became super cheap or the ARF became much more expensive, it may get more people building but I doubt it would move the needle much as so many people don't care/want/have time to build.

To use as an example, the Top Flight P51 ARF on Tower costs $329.97 and the kit Top Flight P51 kit on Tower costs $179.97. The kit is $150 cheaper than the ARF but that still is likely not enticing more people to build than buy the ARF. What if the kit dropped $100 or the ARF increased $100 and the savings difference was now $229.97? Still don't think it would make a huge difference. I just don't know that there is a tipping point that has significantly more people building.

Those that love and prefer to build will do so; those that don't will not.

Lars

fly24-7

I can see that. there are many that see a crash as an opportunity.

fly24-7

I think that's the likely scenario. Regardless of price, people that prefer to build over assemble will likely continue to do so and vice versa. I think the tipping point will be kit versus plan building. If builders continue experiencing increasing difficulty finding kits they want to build, they will be faced with the choice of cutting their own or facing another alternative (RTC or kit bashing an ARF). Although, there are a few guys out there that will laser cut a kit from plans. This obviously can range from reasonable (they already have a CAD database of the plans from a previous job) to expensive (they need to create a CAD database from the plans).

foodstick

Yeah I believe the ARF prices will only go up, not that it will make kit building cheaper.

The cool thing about this laser cutting and 3D printing is it could cause a new explosion in quality Mom and Pop kits.. That would be kinda fun to see happen

chuckk2

I had to think about a companies that sold electronic kits.
Allied Radio/Radio Shack
Heathkit
Eico
and so forth
What happened was that ready to use equipment became cheaper (and in some cases better) than the kits.
No more kit market, other than a few small low volume low cost kits.

acdii

This is my fear, its already hard enough finding kits, and some of the kits I would really like to build are very hard to find, and if you can find one, very expensive. My friend has a Pica 1/5th P-40 and he brought it down the other day. Really nice kit and looks like it will build a nice plane. It sold for $299, but if you can find one now, expect up to $500 to get one. I am wanting to build either a P-61 or B-25 and found a few places that make short kits, but you still have to find the plans. Some of these short kits are as much as an ARF, and you still have to get the sticks and sheets and hardware. You also need to know how to build without an instruction book in order to put it together.

For those of us who like to build, ARF's are putting a crimp on our style.