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Houston, I have a problem!!!!

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Old 01-02-2013, 05:11 PM
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Gray Beard
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Default Houston, I have a problem!!!!

Not being a float plane guy this is a perplexing problem and I have no answers. I got the Swoose in the water today to check it for leaks and see how well it floated. Well, all is well except fot the stance. It really lists to the right float? I have brought it home and checked the lateral balance again, it's really good, if anything it's just a bit off to the left, not the right and not enough to bother trying to set it any better. The floats measure perfectly even to the fuse and wing. Go figure. Will the plane level out on take off when it comes on step? Not a clue. Funny thing is the right listing side is floating /sinking like the photos Mr. Ziroli took of the plane. Knowing nothing about float planes I have no clues. All I know is I'm not happy with how it sits in water. No leaks though, one out of two isn't too bad!!
Gene
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Old 01-02-2013, 05:14 PM
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Default RE: Houston, I have a problem!!!!

If you lift up and look at it from a side view are the floats in rig with one another? I swear they look out of rig in the side view picture. I mean the far float looks really high compared to the left side. In the front view it appears that L/H float is riding in the water up front lower than the other side. Maybe it's just me.

Bob
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Old 01-02-2013, 05:20 PM
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Default RE: Houston, I have a problem!!!!


Hello Gray Beard and best wishes to you and family for the New Year.

Looking at the two pictures it appears to me that the right float is at a different angle than the left one.

The front of the right float is up higher above the water surface and its rear end is dipped in further down than the left one.

Since the rear part of the floats has less volume then the front it would go deeper in the water and create this condition even though the lateral balance is good.

Just my impession.

Zor

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Old 01-02-2013, 05:24 PM
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Default RE: Houston, I have a problem!!!!

I agree with sensei. 

Did you happen to weigh each float before assembly? 
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Old 01-02-2013, 05:27 PM
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Default RE: Houston, I have a problem!!!!

I was typing while others were posting.
I think you have your answer.

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Old 01-02-2013, 05:34 PM
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Default RE: Houston, I have a problem!!!!

Gene
The floats are off alignment under power all it will do is try to run in circles. If you get it in the air, when you land you will be going fishing.
Larry K
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Old 01-02-2013, 05:43 PM
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Default RE: Houston, I have a problem!!!!

I will have to take a look and more measurements later or in the light of day but I do know one float is a little more forward then the other, like a couple inches. I was just out in the shop and measured to make sure they were both hanging the same distance from the fuse to the water, that was good. Looks and sounds like I will be bending more wire again. When I did it originally I was so sure I had everything set perfectly. So much for that thinking crap. Need to re-stock my wire anyway and I'm out of epoxy. Road Trip!! Back across town to the LHS! I just hate driving. Glad I only mounted the skirts with silicone so I can get them off. Thanks for the input Bob. First try with floats, what a pain in the hinderpoo!!
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Old 01-02-2013, 06:02 PM
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Default RE: Houston, I have a problem!!!!

Great job building I have been watching the build. One thing I have learned, wheels and skies you can have a little off and not have to much problems. But floats are a different ketle of fish. They must be about perfect or you are going to be drying out a plane every time you try and fly it.
Larry K
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Old 01-02-2013, 06:05 PM
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Default RE: Houston, I have a problem!!!!

Double post[:@]
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Old 01-02-2013, 06:08 PM
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Default RE: Houston, I have a problem!!!!

After dinner I will be out with my ruler seeing where I messed up. I never thought a little off would create this big of a problem. Things changed when I tightened the legs up.
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Old 01-02-2013, 06:14 PM
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Default RE: Houston, I have a problem!!!!

I am sure you will knock it out pretty fast.

Bob
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Old 01-02-2013, 06:36 PM
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Default RE: Houston, I have a problem!!!!

I'm curious, would you set the floats on the same incidence as the wing? Then to a tip to crankshaft distance check like you would do for a tail?

FWIW, I think there is a "Master Builder" in South Carolina looking to do some "Profeshunal" work.
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Old 01-02-2013, 06:56 PM
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Default RE: Houston, I have a problem!!!!

Piano wire does have a strange way of torqueing up when tightend down. You want to make sure the floats track and are level with each other, they should have a small amount of + incidence with the center line of the fuse to keep it from nose diving. You will find it takeing off and landing are a lot different than with tires or skies, you must keep the plane level at all times till you leave the water and do not pull up to fast or you will stall or torqe out on lift off. You have the constant drag of the water[:@] the only control you have on the water is the rudder in the water thr and elv.
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Old 01-02-2013, 07:41 PM
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Default RE: Houston, I have a problem!!!!

I discovered the left float is 1.5 inches behind the right float. Other then that all is still straight and level. It doesn't seem that much off but that's what the ruler says. I question if that left side being off or behind the right side would make it float deeper on the right side that much?? Oh well, more wire to be bought and bent. That also put the step on the left side farther back. All this thinking hurts my head!!
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Old 01-02-2013, 08:26 PM
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Default RE: Houston, I have a problem!!!!

Quote:
All this thinking hurts my head!! 

I find a cold, frosty beverage..., or 5, 6..., will fix me right up !!

The next day, I've forgotten what the fuss was about. 
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Old 01-03-2013, 07:10 AM
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Default RE: Houston, I have a problem!!!!

Gene,

One factor no one has addressed at this point is buoyancy. Is there a way you could test each float buoyancy without being installed in the plane?

I would check each float with same weight to see if one float has more buoyancy than the other and check where the center of buoyancy is in each float. Then alignment the floats center of buoyancy with model C.G. If both floats have same buoyancy with different center of buoyancy, missalignment will cause what you are seeing because the center of buoyancy will not be in sync with model C.G. I hope I explained this correctly.

My 0.02.

Pedro
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Old 01-03-2013, 07:37 AM
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Default RE: Houston, I have a problem!!!!

Looking at the pictures , it appears the right float is mounted at a different angle(tip high/tail low) than the left float. Must be the right side mount is off a bit throwing the float out of alignment. Assuming both float mounts have the same dimensions,did you check the measurements between the wing saddle and the top of each float mount on each side of the fuse? . 
A little bit off you might be able to work with but if it's as much as what shows in the pic then the water handling will be affected.
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Old 01-03-2013, 10:21 AM
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Default RE: Houston, I have a problem!!!!

Gene,

It may just be the angle, but in the first picture, it appears that the front of the plane is lower than the tail and when the plane is up on step with the floats, the angle will be worse. I'm not familiar with how the swoose usually flies, but if the front of the plane is too low, the plane may never lift off the water because the motor is angled down and there may not be enough elevator authority to overcome it. I hope what I'm trying to say makes sense.

Good luck.

David
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Old 01-03-2013, 11:09 AM
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Default RE: Houston, I have a problem!!!!

Sounds like you have a good handle on correctingthe problem Gene. Check out this link Post #5, you're not the only one that had problems with it in the water.


http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_758722/tm.htm
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Old 01-03-2013, 12:10 PM
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Default RE: Houston, I have a problem!!!!

Thanks for the info and help with this. Having a handle on it would be stretching the truth by a big bunch. I spent a lot of time running in and out of the shop last night taking measurements and just sitting down and looking at it. This morning I went out and looked at it some more and I'm noticing a lot of little things. I have built a couple of planes for friends that ended up as float planes but I didn't install the floats for them. Well, I did bend and set up the wires for the #2 plane I built for a friend. I have never done a float plane for myself and this is my first and only. All I have to go by are the photos of the original build article Nick Ziroil did in 89. At this point I do see some minor things that may be causing the problem. The most blatant is the left float being one and five eights behind the right float and that really puts the step back a lot farther then the right float. My plan is to just remove the left float and match it up to the right float because how the right float looks is how both floats look in Nicks photos
As to weight, this one is fully sheeted and glassed and with the land gears on it the weight is right at 8 pounds. Nicks came in at 8.5 pounds with a .50 engine. This one has a YS 1.10 in it. The build article said he needed over a pound of lead in the nose so I went with the heavy over sized engine and spinner. Still needed about 2 ounces of lead up front. Before I make any changes I will set the plane out on the concrete and take more photos and post them. If anyone else spots any problems please point them out before I start to make the changes.
As for flight, it is really a nice plane but way over powered. Just flying around I never go over 1/4 throttle and have only gasses it a couple times doing huge loops and a high speed pass or two. Without any gear in the plane it is very light weight. I think the one I built for my friend to go electric is only 3.5 pounds without any covering on it. I did really watch the weight on them. Anything aft of the CG I made as light as I could knowing the tail heavy problem.
Floats are a mystery to me and I know of no one close to me to ask for help. Thanks for all the input.
The alignment between them measures good but they are off just a tad in the back. I will need a trip to the LHS for a lot more wire in the next few days. I just hope the three LHS has re-stocked sense I bought them out several months ago.
Thanks for the input!!
Gene
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Old 01-03-2013, 12:40 PM
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Default RE: Houston, I have a problem!!!!

GB, great attitude. Open to suggestions, pretty rare. 
Good luck, you'll figure it out.  
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Old 01-03-2013, 12:44 PM
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Default RE: Houston, I have a problem!!!!

It doesn't take much difference in measurement to move them out of vertical alignment and the longer the floats the more "out" they will be in relation to the attachment point.
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Old 01-03-2013, 01:11 PM
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Default RE: Houston, I have a problem!!!!

I belive thats "Houston".
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Old 01-03-2013, 01:35 PM
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Default RE: Houston, I have a problem!!!!


I thought he meant John, or Angelica. Maybe Danny?  
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Old 01-03-2013, 01:39 PM
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Default RE: Houston, I have a problem!!!!

Gene
It would be great if some of us lived a little closer to each other. This is like going to school on a PC
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