bebopgolf

Thanks for the kind words! Ol' #173... I like it ! I think the mini smith is next on my build list.

Zor

to work with a good tool. In a few minutes I had two 1/8" thick birch plywood cut nearly touching the pencil outline. A bit of filing and sanding and the main spar joiner is ready to be glued.

I may drill small 1/8" or so diameter holes in the aluminum plate that would end up filled with the epoxy. I refer to that as "epoxy riveting" L O L .

I am also thinking of coating the top and bottom of the boxes with a thin aluminum surface to ease inserting and removing the join bars. Something like aluminum can material from pop or beer cans. This coating would be glued on before the pieces are installed to assure they are straight.

Somehow and sometime _ _ _ I'll get things done.

Zor

P.S.: Hopefully, sometime I will get ideas from someone about the aileron question to avoid large gaps between the wings and the ailerons.

End

skyrat71

Zor,
I had a similar problem with my Seniorita's ailerons.Take a look at the photos in post #1101 of this thread and you will see my rather unrefined solution. Mechanically they work fine but I never got a chance to fly it this summer to see how the aerodynamics work out.

skylark-flier

Yeah, I was going to say pretty much the same thing - a hinge recessed into the aileron, kinda like this:

With this kind of set-up you get a bit of a bump as the aileron rotates but, if the hinge is placed just right, there's no gap when it moves.

Ye gads Skyrat - you haven't flown your new lady yet? Snow's coming down the mountains, need to get a move on... besides, I found snow in my yard (just enough to stand up in court and swear that it was there) yesterday morning. There's still some on the mountains behind me.

Zor

Hello skyrat71,

When I am ( was ) talking about the gap between the main wings and the ailerons I really meant the smooth continuity of the surfaces; upper and lower surfaces.

I see a fellow has hinged the ailerons at the top surface and has a huge 45 degrees underneath so the aileron can come down up to that angle. That leaves a 1 1/4 inch lack of continuity on the bottom surface when the ailerons are neutral.

I am trying to find a way of avoiding that. At the upper surface there is negligeable gap but the bottom surface has this 1 1/4" of gap. That is what I am trying to solve.

I am attaching one of your pictures where I see that you have used slotted flaps and still ( apparently ) have some surface discontinuity at the ailerons.

It is this surfaces continuity that I am trying to solve.

Any ideas from anyone ?

Zor

soarrich

My Feedback: (98)

Is this for looks or aerodynamic reasons?

Zor

Hi soarrich,

I consider it for both; appearance and aerodynamics.

A smooth, ( or reasonably so ) surface certainly looks better than a huge surface gap of about 1 1/4" even if it is underneath.

Aerodynamically _ _ _ when a wing is rather thin like not exceeding 1/2" at the ailerons leading edges the turbulence is not too severe. In this case of the leading edge of the ailerons being 1 1/4" and such a big gap I am in favor of eliminating this surface gap. Airflow turbulence is a random occurrence and I think it affects a smooth airflow over the bottom and / or both ailerons surfaces depending how the hinging is done.

I have no doubt that when the aileron goes up the lower surface is exposed to turbulent air and when the aileron goes down the upper surface is exposed to turbulent air. What I am trying to achieve is a smooth flow on both ailerons surfaces when nearly in neutral position.

It is a challenge to find a solution.

There is more in multiple brains _ _ _ thus why I asked folks for their ideas how to achieve this.

Thanks to anyone with their ideas and / or comments _ _ _ even their question(s).

Hope I am answering adequately.

Nice to read you soarrich.

Zor

FlyerInOKC

My Feedback: (6)

Post 1905 remind me of what TF does on their 182 except the hinges are not in as deep.

TomCrump

Sig has successfully employed the top hinge method for years.

skyrat71

Zor,
On my Seniorita the gap is much less than it appears in the photo, 3/32" actually. The hinge point was carefully positioned to close the gap with down deflection and open it with up deflection. I am by no means saying this is the best way to build an aileron though. It might have been the worst from an engineering standpoint.
Being a full size pilot I can tell you the planes I've flown with the smoothest,lightest, and quickest ailerons are a Stinson 108 and Bellanca Super Viking. Both use the offset hinge Handley Paige style aileron, but so do a lot of other planes that don't fly nearly as well.

Skylark,
I know, I know. You can kick me out of the brotherhood if you must. I've had three perfectly good Sig planes ready to go all summer and never once went flying. We got 6 to 8" of snow here on Saturday, so I think it's safe to say summer is over.

BigTeeEldorado

Zor

My resources are limited on the computer I am using at the moment but i will try to explain my suggestion. Using the picture you added to this posting that has a fowler sytle hinging you can make the leading edge of the flap rounded, then extend both the top and bottom wing sheeting onto the top and bottom surface of the flaps, recessing the sheeting into the flap so when the top and bottom of the sheeting components meet the result is a seamless flush joint. The sheeting needs only extend a small amount, or as you decide during installation, so as to clear the flaps during operation. Ideally when you deploy the flaps the bottom sheeting that extends past the trailing edge will have very little clearance throughout the entire movement of the flap never exposing a gap.

If you think the idea has some merit let me know and I will submit a drawing when I get back to the home computer.

Zor

Of course when I ask for help and ideas I myself keep working on a possible solution.

I was not talking mainly about flaps because they can be hinged at the bottom surface of the wings and a triangular empty gap would exist only when deployed. I am not concerned about that gap.

I have been concerned about the ailerons. I made a drawing which I have not yet posted due to some final details unfinished. I have to prepare it for posting. It will take me about half an hour. It takes my computer about 15 minutes just to transfer pictures.

Picture coming up on my next post.

Zor

Zor

Hi All,

With my luck I had a power failure locally when the pic was nearly loaded and had to reboot the computer to transfer the pic camera to puter.

Some details of the hinges is not yet shown but that is not a problem.

The gap can be so small as to the extended hard balsa strips would just not touch the rounded leading edge of the ailerons.

I think that should work very well.

Thanks for your contribution. Obviously I did not have time to draw all this following your similar idea.

I am very grateful BigTeeEldorado for your thinking and your post.

Zor

TomCrump

That's the system I used to "seal" the gaps on my Focke Wulf and Cessna 195.

I considered it for the Kadet Senior, but felt it was an unnecessary amount of work to be utilized on a trainer.

If you've never done it before, I encourage you to do so, just for the learning experience.

Zor

TomC

Just thinking that you could have helped with your experience on the Focke Wulf and Cessna 195.

There is not much more to learn once the idea is designed; just more cutting and gluing.

Some pictures from you could be usefull for the details of how you did it including the hinging.

What say Brother ? Some pictures illustrating your good work or the results?

Thanks Tom.

Zor

BigTeeEldorado

You are very welcome, glad it was usefull.

Just thinking if you use your imagination and a little a variation of the hinge bracket from the one I used on my STOL Kadet (for the Junkers style ailerons) might work for you. Pics...

skylark-flier

Naw, not a chance of anything like that. I certainly do remember the snow you get - I remember all too well flying C/L at -30 while the icefog was falling on the planes waiting to fly (usually Jan or Feb timeframes). Yeah, snow in your backyard in Oct - Nov is fairly normal - - that same snow HERE in Oct - Nov is unheard of. Thankfully, it was gone by noon (except on the mtns, still there today).

Yeah, no doubt about it, summer's over.

BigTeeEldorado

AH.....Not here!!

acdii

I just did these on their Cub yesterday, a Pain in the Tucan. Leaves a nice smooth upper surface.

TomCrump

I just did them on my Kadet Senior.

After you build them a few times, they become easier. When scrtatching up ailerons, they have become my "go to" design.

zor, I had no idea what you were fishing for. That aileron design is basic. I thought you had something more exotic in mind.

As for pics. I don't have any. The Focke Wulf has been sold, and the Cessnais inaccessable until Spring.

FlyerInOKC

My Feedback: (6)

I have lost count on how many plans I have seen that called for that method of making Ailerons. Its one of those tried and true methods.

acdii

They did turn out nice though, I took my time since I didn't have a slotting knife, just the power slitter, which I couldn't use on the wing at all, so I just used a #11. I also found I built some washout in the ailerons. LOL The tip end is raised slightly on both wings, should make an interesting flight. Wing is nice and flat, so I dont know how the aileron got a slight twist to them, but both are like this. They are about a 1/16th high at the tip when even at the root.

TomCrump

Maybe you can pull them down with the covering, by stressing the aileron in the opposite direction, and shrinking the covering. It may average out, by the time you finish.

Zor

Greetings,

The cats' winter house is given priority with the snow coming up soon and the freezing weather.
This year I have inherited of four cats that are wild and come to my backyard looking for food that I am providing for them.

There is all winter to build the Kadet and the preparation of items has to be done before the actual building starts. I cannot fly it before next spring anyway.

It figures that no pictures of the Focke Wulf and Cessna 195 aileron build are available. It is not the type of pictures usually taken. It does not do any harm to ask just in case there would be some.

Hinges at the top surface of the wings for ailerons sure makes a nice smooth top but I do not wish the big gap it creates on the bottom surface. A 1 1/4" gap in this case. I worked on a solution and another fellow also did with a similar solution. I posted a picture of the design idea attached to a recent previous posting.

Concerning tooling to build models _ _ _ I do not have a dedicated workshop for models. All my work is done in the house at normal living temperature and humidity. Power tools are a small vertical drill press ( 8" clearance ), a 6" dia with 36" around flat sander, 3/8" chuck hand drill, a 8" dia grinding wheels on an old washing machine 1/3 hp motor and a 10" dia blade table saw and my new jigsaw. Also, of course, the usual hand tools.

My flatness reference is a half inch thick BC fir plywood 48" x 20" sitting on an old office desk and verified to be flat within the thickness of a sheet of paper 0.003" thick. That is good enough for any model building.
Now to go and have someting to eat and work on the cats' house.

Have a great day all.

Zor

Zor

TomC,

All I had in mind is avoid a 1 1/4" big triangular gap on the bottom wing surface.
I was wishing for a smooth top and bottom surfaces at the ailerons hinges.

I saw your picture on Your Kadet build showing the aileron cross section with that big gap even if you say that what I arrived at is what you used on the Focke Wulf and the Cessna 195. It would have been nice and useful for many viewers to see pictures of that.

Zor