mikes68charger

My Feedback: (34)

Ok guys, I have read the why no one builds kits, and have made a chose to build my first this winter.

But as ARF are very easy with basic tools, one mostly knows what they needed, but what scares most about kits are the additanal things needed that they may already have but don't know they do.

Ok, so as I have not built a kit, but a few hard ARF's (ESM, Jet Centry) I think Im ready but Im looking for guidance on what tools or titems I should collect before I get started.

1st. I got a new table just for this project so I will not have to mess with it, but I was told I should cover it with something like dry wall?? What kind how thick???


2nd Wood glues, I read elemers, and titebond are great but wich tite bond? Green, Blue, Red?


3rd, A good note on when you should use what glue would help, (ie when to use CA vs Wood Glue vs epox)


4rth, what are some good tools to get before you get started? A basic list would be great..

Im thinking.

(Cutting) exsacto blades, a small band saw, a few small hand thin blade saws.. what eles???


(Glueing) Thin/thick CA, Titebond, 30min epoxy, and finsh epoxy for covering


(Shapeing) Sand paper 36,200, 400 with 12in board, a 36 sanding sponge, I was told rasp or a small plane tool?


(Clamping) Get T pins, cloths clips/pins, small clamps, and Lead shoot bags


(Ceanlyness) wax paper for planes, Wich kind?? Paper towlsm and coton rags


(covering Teq) plastic(mon a coat), vs fiberglass vs flight skin or other....


Any other tools do you find your seld useing alot?

Any tools sugstion? (good Drimal for sure)


So guys I put down all I know from reading throw a lot of your post, please quot and add more info and make a sticky for those who are thinking of walking down this new road.


O ya Im building a Top Flite Gaint Corsar, Im still trying to work out the motor set up, but Im drolling all over the 7 cylinder 77cc radial even thow I hate nitro, or the 58 Satio twin gas. Im going for full detal... But I want to make sure my basic build is up to step

I know most of this info is on this and many othere sites, but a small informative sticky thread would help those who are thinking of building.

Don't forget, most of the new flyer come from a time when they did not repair or build things, so what you were blessed with in your past is not the same story as all. I just helped a family member of mine in NYC get his drivers permit at 34 years old.

Thanks Mike

mattnew

My Feedback: (2)

1. cover it with something pins will stick into. Homasote ( ask around at home depot for it ), drywall , ceiling tiles, dense foam all are options. make sure its flat no matter what you use.

2. titebonds. the waterproof stuff isn't really needed. I usually use "the red ( original )", the green ( titebond III ) is strongest, but its waterier ( if thats a word ) and takes longer to dry.
most of the time I go with the standard red stuff. it works well

3. Don't use CA or epoxy on anything you'll be sanding later. mainly b/c it doesn't sand well. wing sheeting, outer surfaces etc. other than that, its really up to you. for wood-wood joints, wood glue like titebond has been proven to be the strongest, for wood to fiberglasses or plastics there are tests out there that show slow set epoxy to be the strongest. CA's are faster and let you build quicker, but you give up some strength. With ALL of them, the glue is stronger than the balsa wood around the joint, so its really user preference.

4. you have the right idea, most of what you listed can be picked up as you go, not necessary to have all at once
reynolds wax paper... doesn't really matter the brand though, just something so you don't glue your wing to your plans

some things I like

razor plane
aluminum bar sanders
xacto saw blades for xacto knifes.

I rarely use my dremel... but I do have one. its hard to make a neat straight cut with a dremel... with models, I usually ask myself before resorting to a power tool is there a better way with a hand tool that I can get a better result.



good luck!

RCKen

My Feedback: (9)

Here's a short list I made up a while back on adhesives and what I use them for. It's still pretty current and gives you a pretty good idea of what I use, when and where

I used to use CA's for my building but about 9 years ago I switched to Elmer's Carpenter's Glue, and I won't go back to the CA's. I feel that my building has improved since I've switched because I have more time to get a joint positioned correctly before the glue sets and you don't get those hard knots in the wood that are impossible to sand. Also I didn't like the reaction my body has to the CA fumes. Many call it a CA allergy, but after I've talked to a few doctors and a couple of chemists I find that it's not an allergy but a simple chemical reaction in your body. The CA fumes react with the moisture in your nose, throat, and lungs to produce some very bad reactions. Over time these reactions can become worse with repeated exposure. I've seen people that can hardly breath for 3 days after using it. I wanted to avoid that from happening before it got to that point. So..... here's what I use for my building.

• Elmer's Carpenter's Glue - This is my main adhesive. I use it for the majority of building with balsa and wood to wood contact. For ply's and harder woods I will use epoxy
• 5 minute epoxy - I do have this around but I very rarerly use it. I will usually use 30 minute, but I have the 5 minute around for quick uses that aren't in critical areas of the plane.
• 30 minute epoxy - I use this for critical stress areas on the plane such as wing joints, firewall attachments, horizontal and vertical stabilizer, securing hinge points, and other high stress critical areas.
• CA's - Yes, I know I said I didn't use these but that's not entirely true. I still use them for a couple of things. I keep thin CA around for hardening threads cut into wood for such things as wing bolts. I may also use it to help hold large constructions together while the Elmer's sets. I will put a couple of small drops on the wood to hold it all together while the wood glue dries. I also do reviews for RCU and I use the proper thickness CA adhesive that is called for in the instructions. I do this because we try to do review planes as the instructions call for. I do have medium and thick CA around but don't use them much. Especially the thick, too many people try to use thick CA to fill up gaps in wood joints but this can be bad, it can lead to a false sense of security because the joint will be weak. Nothing beats wood to wood contact in a joint.
• Formula 560 - This is a canopy adhesive and that's exactly what I use it for, for attaching the canopy to the fuselage
• Gorilla Glue - I don't use this glue too much because of the way it expands while setting up. This can be bad if you don't have the area secured properly because it can push the parts out of position before it dries. But I've found that it does have several really good uses, one especially good is if you have areas that need to be filled and secured. You can apply the glue and a little water and the glue will expand out into the area you want to fill.
• Thread locks - Self-explanatory. I use thread lock to keep nuts and screws in place. Always use blue thread lock so you can remove the nut or screw later. Never ever use red thread lock because it's permenant, you won't get your nut or screw off ever again.
• 3M 77 spray adhesive - This is some great stuff that has lots of uses in our hobby. One that comes to mind right off the bat is when doing cockpits. You can use this spray adhesive to hold items like printed instrument panels in place.

Well, that's about all I can think of right now.


Ken

4*60

My Feedback: (41)

You have a good list. Don't build 2 right or left wings!

RCKen

My Feedback: (9)

Myself and my good friend MinnFlyer (Rest in peace Mike!!) made up a video awhile back on building a trainer from a kit. We cover a lot of the questions that you are asking in your post about your workspace, materials, building techniques, and a bunch of other things that new builders need to know. We did the video with the new builder in mind and it's geared towards somebody who's never cut a piece of wood before. You can purchase a copy of it on our website and then you can get an immediate download of the videos in that package. We price of $24.95 on the videos. We did that because the rest of the site is set up as completely ad free and the little bit we get in on the videos helps to offset the costs involved with having the site. You can find those at www.gettingairborne.com. The entire site is geared towards helping beginners, but I think you are past that. Even though we are building a trainer in the videos the techniques we talk about in the videos will translate to just about any kit that you want to build. If you are doing a first build make sure it's an easy kit to build. You don't want to start off with a huge warbird as the first plane that you build.

Hope this helps

Ken

mattnew

My Feedback: (2)

+1, avoiding CA glues seems to tend to improve my quality as well. I'd recommend trying it if you are able to.

I have mixed feelings on the epoxy for high strength areas... I've always done it, its what kits recommend, I'm not sure its the right thing to do. Your normal wood glue bonds better to the wood than epoxy does, and its stronger. Both are stronger than your wood, Epoxy has the added benefit that it is fuel proof so using it on your firewall would seem to make sense.

I've posted this a few times on the forum, its a good read on glues and how they do relating to gluing wood.
http://www.oldbrownglue.com/pdf/HowS...urGlue_FWW.pdf

I don't know if I have any definitive answers here other than when you are gluing wood to non-wood, epoxy is your best choice. Wood to wood, and titebond or elmers carpenter glues are probably your best choices, but considering the strength of balsa, epoxy and CA's aren't a wrong choice.

mikes68charger

My Feedback: (34)

Do you have to sand/ruff 36grit all wood joints with the wood glue

SunDevilPilot

If you are into power tools you will quickly find a disc sander essential. I have a 12" disc now, and it is my goto tool, but I used a combination belt / disc sander for many, many, years. I got the Ryobi brand belt / disc combo from Home Depot for like $99.00 bucks. I have more than got my money out of it. I got the 12" disc recently to get me a little more precision (Construction my my Jet 12" Disc is all cast iron compared to aluminum of the Ryobi).

Either will get the job done.

Note about kit building... For me it is often an excuse to buy tools! Who doesn't like tools!

99% of the joints in this elevator were done with a disc sander. The part was cut slightly long then the joint was fine tuned on the disc sander.

SunDevilPilot

3136

Hi Mike, if I'm gluing balsa to balsa I dont rough it up, I just sand smooth for a good fit. I use red titebond mainly for these kind of joins, it seeps in and bonds like hell.

If I need to join balsa to ply, or ply to ply then I will rough up just a bit and use epoxy.
Epoxy doesn't seep in as far as I've seen.
Epoxy can pop away from a smooth surface, just see how you can easily peel it away from a plastic scraper after it has dried.
Thats why I don't use it on plastic hinges, foaming gorilla is great for that, (just vaseline the hinge part so it doesn't bind up), when dry just pick away the excess

as for building, clamps, clamps and more clamps, t pins, a razor saw, exacto knife a good metal rule will be your main items, you don't really need much.
I like to glue sandpaper to various sized offcuts of ply and glue a strip to the back as a handle.

As for building tips, try and keep it light, if you pull off the covering on a arf you will be shocked how crap they are glued together, yet they mainly fly fine.
I have a bad habbit of beefing things up when not neccisary, don't get this bad habbit!!!!!
Always, particularly with ww1 keep the tail light.

Main thing is, have fun, stand back and be proud of what you have done.

Oh yeah, you'll need lots of beer.

LesUyeda

"Oh yeah, you'll need lots of beer."

NOT to be consumed until AFTER the building session:-))))))))))))))))

Les

saramos

When I first started building, this was one of the two most helpful tools I found and used:

www.airfieldmodels.com

The other most helpful tool was RCU.


Scott

bikerbc

I have replied to this thread twice now and it has not showed up...Its difficult to make up a list of things you need .. The best thing to do is get tools as you need them and try to get good ones , buying cheap tools is a waste of money ..A friend of mine always says " Only a Dull tool uses a dull tool ".. You are going to need a good flat and level work table ..A band saw is a great tool if you can afford one or a scroll saw ..A drill press too .. A dremel , A small belt and disk sander combo , A small cordless drill and a good drill index . You will need a few exato knives and lots of blades . A little mitre box and a razor saw is pretty handy .You are going to need and assortment of hand tools , metal rulers , ball drivers , screw drivers files and things you can pick up as you go . Its almost impossible to list them all .. I use all the tite bond glues.. The green # III and #II mostly . The #III is thinner and slower and penetrates best so makes strong joints .. I use Epo Grip epoxy mostly because I like how it dosent run all over the place .. It is great for hinge points.. I like to have plastic curved tip syringes for applying glue in hard to get at spots ..I have Thin CA and Med CA But I don't use it very much... A tri square . A 36" straight edge and a covering iron trim iron and heat gun .

Leroy Gardner

All this info is good, it's what us builders typically use, much of it is added as the need arises, just start with the basics and go from there. Also check the build manual of your olane, lots of the time there will be a list of building supplies needed.

akbowen

My Feedback: (7)

Oops.

stevegauth30

One thing that I think is very important, don't ever sand with a piece of sand paper in your hand. Always with a block. You don't have to buy them either. I make them our of scraps of pine and a staple gun. You can make them for any shape too, for instance a leading edge. Just a thought.

mikes68charger

My Feedback: (34)

That's good to know

bikerbc

As has been said pick them up as you go and make some things like sanding blocks.. You will get good at improvising as time goes on . I am forever making little jigs for drilling special holes or making repetitive cuts etc . It is fun and interesting if you are into that sort of thing . We have a coffee club that meets once a week and we alternate at each others houses .. The first thing we all want to do is go to the shop and see what each of us is working on . It is exciting to me to get into somebodys shop and see what somebody is working on and how they are going about it.. I never fail to learn something .

Owl

My Feedback: (8)

lot of good basic suggestions here.
Among other things, I depend heavily on my trio of Fourmost tools, the Miter cut, Miter sander, and Miter saw.
I use these all a lot in every build.
There are several other brands available for about the same price, and it wouldn't be hard to just build them, but for the $20 or so I spent on each years ago, these have served me well.