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AMR 100" Twin 30cc powered kit

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AMR 100" Twin 30cc powered kit

Old 06-13-2014, 02:46 PM
  #76  
Bob Paris
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Aloha,
Well...I managed to final my rudder and vertical fin shape and size. I first used the supplied kits design and went after a twin rudder. After I made my first templates...and tried it on the fuselage, decided to not go with a twin rudder. My second attempt at a single rudder seemed to work fore me and cut cardboard to actual size and fit to try it out. I am now drawing up plans for the rudder and will build up this rudder. I am no aerodynamic engineer...but I decided to make sure all my fin and rudder area's remain at the same ratio. I made the fin taller, and inset a forward balance piece on top of the rudder itself. I will use the same bottom pieces that are given in the kit to build up the stock rudder, inset into the aft fuselage and added a fore piece for the vertical fin. The last two pictures are the final shape of the fin. I narrowed the top of the rudder 1-3/8" from the first pictures and the rudder seemed more visually balanced for me.

Any comments will be appreciated...Notice I have a large rudder and I made it a bit larger then the kit came with. Being a twin...I want a good solid rudder for single engine control.

Soft Landings Always,
Bobby of Maui

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Last edited by Bob Paris; 06-13-2014 at 11:28 PM.
Old 06-15-2014, 12:07 PM
  #77  
Leroy Gardner
 
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Sure looks naked without the wings Bob, little by little it's coming along, sounds like you have the control issues ironed out. You think you will get it done for this flying season.

Leroy
Old 06-15-2014, 10:39 PM
  #78  
Bob Paris
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Hay Leroy,
Yes...I will finish it soon enough and the winter here is the usual best season to fly. We get a good trade wind here in the Spring and Summer. Fall and Winter...usually is the best time to fly here in Hawaii. We still get winds in the Winter...but usually not as intense as in the Summer (subject to change any day too). We don't have a winter here...it just cools down a bit more at night.

I built up my Vertical fin today...and skinned it with 1/64 light ply. The fin is light and strong. I used 3/8" sq. bass wood for a leading edge, utilized the bottom pieces of wood given in the kit, for the fin, and made up the rest with 3/8" square balsa sticks and 3/8" balsa sheet. The kit supplied vertical fin, notches into the bottom part of the aft fuselage floor, so I used the kit supplied wood and tied it all into the new upper fin. I drew out my plan on rapping paper and started gluing wood. It came out nice and I'll have the pictures tomorrow to show you the finished product.

Soft Landings Always,
Bobby of Maui
Old 06-16-2014, 01:13 PM
  #79  
Leroy Gardner
 
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Bob I just read your signature and got a kick out of it, Might add I feel the same way, guess I should read a few more.

As far as weather goes here spring brings storms so flying is hit and miss, good weather isn't that far off and it will heat up also, usuall a few 90's during the summer but 80's are more common. We also have our winds to contend with, I can handle 15 MPH but much over that gets me on the ground real fast. I do love North Idaho, it's a great place to live on the main land, never a lack of outdoor things to do if your a sportsman which I am.

I do enjoy your build, will be a pretty neat plane when it's done, they all really fly nice, your's should be know different.

Leroy
Old 06-17-2014, 12:28 AM
  #80  
Bob Paris
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Aloha Leroy,
What is the altitude that you fly at? We are about 150 above sea level, so we get maximum performance out of your models. 15 mph is our normal winds here...and I'll fly some models I have at higher winds. If its a hard cross wind...that is another story, but our flying field is the old Black Sheep Squadrons WWII training base. There are aircraft bunkers on two sides of our field and our run way is the old taxi way for the F4U's. Its kind of neat to have a flying field like this and its runway, is used for the drag strip.

I used some of the wood and parts supplied in the kit to make the rudder and the kit comes with a large hole for a dowel to be glued in. I had to cut the dowel, 3/8" wide and I glued this into the bottom of the rudder. This dowel came with the kit...but it is not mentioned anywhere in my building instructions. I also center drilled the dowel to accept the pull/pull rudder control screw and sanded flush to the face of the rudder. Its kind of a neat idea...and will give the rudder control a more solid attachment.

I was able to finish the vertical fin and rudder. I also hinged the rudder to the vertical fin with Robart Hing points and hing pockets. It was a trip to get all four hings to line up but it just took a bit of time.

Next is the horizontal stab and elevator.

Soft Landings Always,
Bobby of Maui

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Last edited by Bob Paris; 06-17-2014 at 12:32 AM.
Old 06-17-2014, 10:47 AM
  #81  
Leroy Gardner
 
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Bob our elevation here is 2,100 ft, I don't have any noticeable engine performance issues, engines are tuned to 7500 RPM with the proper prop, I never max out the rated RPM's of my gas engines, they will last longer. I really like the DLE engines, have 3 so far, 55,35 and 20 cc. Sounds like you have a nice field to fly at with some history behind it, we have the nicest field for miles around, it is a RC made site with a 30' wide 540' long paved runway and 40 covered pits, it's really nice, there is plenty of grass and a diagonal strip for some of those dead sticks.

You are not the only one trying to get perfect hinge alignment useing the hinge points, thats all I use. I take the leading and trailing control parts cut to the plans and T-pin them together, mark hinge location and drill them on the drill press with a brad point bit after which a 3/16" dowel is inserted dry. If you have two identical say ailerons drill one hole a 1/4" off from the other and they can not be put on the wrong side or upside down. Dowels are also used to aid in sanding surfaces flat to one another for perfect fits during final assembly. I hope you sand the burnt wood on the laser cut parts off some to get a better glue bond, there is a fine film of unstuck burned wood ash on them and should be removed.

Your work looks pretty good, AMR makes you think a bit as all things are not laid out completly, they give you options to do it your way. Part of the mans building style I think, we all have our own to some degree.

Ideas for drilling the hinge holes that really work.

Later,
Leroy
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Old 06-17-2014, 11:12 AM
  #82  
Bob Paris
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Hay Leroy,
Our runway is 600 ft.. with over runs that are huge. You have WWII revetments on the South West and West side of the field, and when the Kona's are blowing (pineapple express winds) you can get some real interesting landing conditions. A dead calm day is really unusual and most day's, flying is over by 10:00 am. Cross winds here are the norm and you either get used to the conditions or your not going to risk you model. I have a couple of models I'll fly in just about any winds that may develop...but ever so often you will lose one in the winds, or break a prop.

Today I actually finished the rudder and vertical fin. I needed to add the forward part of the vertical fin and the bottom piece to the rudder. After this was done...the fin was finished. Now on to the elevator...for real.

Thank you for your inputs on the instillation of Robart hinges. You nailed the way to never have an issue with misalignment. I'll be using your method on my ailerons and flaps... mine sucks and takes a bit of fiddling to get it right.

Soft Landings Always,
Bobby of Maui

P.S. my signature logo comes from the CASBAR. To get into the CASBAR, you need to be invited and to have flown combat overseas in any of the U.S. Armed Forces.

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Last edited by Bob Paris; 06-17-2014 at 01:09 PM.
Old 06-18-2014, 01:27 AM
  #83  
strhsrtjhu
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Bobby you have a great plan. Hope you post your build here it should be a fun one good reading, good luck.
Old 06-18-2014, 12:39 PM
  #84  
Bob Paris
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Aloha Guys,
Today I managed to lay out the horizontal stabilizer and elevator. Step 86 tells you to pull out parts S1, S2, S3 & S4, these pieces make up your horizontal stab. Step 86 also tells you to lay out E1, E2 and E3, and these three pieces make up your elevator (step 86 ~ step 89 deal with assembling these parts). You will notice on the stab, towards the bottom, there are two holes pre cut into S3 (like with the rudder), that needs to be filled with a cut dowel piece and glued into S3. This is to support the screws that hold on your tail wheel assembly. The instructions do not say anything about this, but you will find the dowel piece in the kit, and you might as well cut four pieces of that dowel, 3/8" thick. Yo will need two for the tail wheel and two for the elevators. After I cut my rudder dowel piece, I center drilled mine to accept a 10/32 cap headed screw.

I am modifying my elevator to more match my rudders shape. I will also use 3/8" sq. bass wood for the trailing edge of the horizontal stab and the leading edge of the elevators. I will pre drill these to accept Robart hinge points per Leroy's' example above. I've cut my most all my wood, but I still need to cut my four dowel pieces.

Just a note here...Yes I modified my elevator, but the square area of the horizontal stab, is equal to, or a bit more then what comes in the kit. I will also need to modify the stab to mount it onto the fuselage. I've modified my kit to have a removable stabilizer and all the modifications will be dealt with, in the stab build up.

The stock kits horizontal stabilizer is 38" long and I made mine a couple of inches longer, with my modifications to its shape...yes...its a big one.

Soft Landings Always,
Bobby of Maui

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Last edited by Bob Paris; 06-18-2014 at 09:38 PM. Reason: always to correct spelling and my english
Old 06-18-2014, 02:55 PM
  #85  
box car
 
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Hi Bob, here is a FYI. The horizontal stabilizer, including the elevator, should be about 20 to 26% of the total wing area. The span should be 3 times the average cord lenght
Old 06-18-2014, 08:46 PM
  #86  
Leroy Gardner
 
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Bob just an idea but you could include balance tabs on the elevators to take the strain off the servo on that large a surface, it would help to dampen any tendenacys of flutter also while adding stability across them. Just a thought and could apply to the rudder as well.

Leroy
Old 06-18-2014, 08:59 PM
  #87  
Leroy Gardner
 
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I should pay more attention, I see you did put a balance on the rudder, the upper reply wouldn't let me correct it.

There is sure a number of issues posting on RCU not to mention how slow it is any more, could be the time of day but it happenes to me all the time

Leroy
Old 06-18-2014, 10:08 PM
  #88  
Bob Paris
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Hay Leroy,
I to run into issues with RCU being slow...and not being able to repost or correct my spelling or grammar. But it is what it is and I work around it the best I can.

Good idea for the balanced elevators...interesting idea and may follow your advice. I'm new to building large RC models...and for me...this is the largest I've ever built. I'm most probably over building it a bit, especially the tail feathers. I skinned the vertical stab with 1/64" ply and I'm currently skinning the rudder. To me...the rudder and vertical fin, didn't seem stiff enough, but after I applied the 1/64" ply, the lack of stiffness was no longer an issue.

The elevator on this model is split into two pieces. So I will have two HD1501BBMG servo's putting out 200+ "/oz. of torque each to drive each elevator half. I like the idea of balanced flight controls, of dampening flutter. I've witnessed more then one model re-kit over flutter.

Box Car

The wing of this model is 106" long and the span of my modified horizontal stab is 42", with the kits supplied stab being 38" long. I'm close to your figures and I'm not really making my stab that much larger. I cut a rear rake in mine, on the leading edge of the horizontal stab. What I added onto the stab's tip ends, made up most of what I lost on the leading edge modification. All in all, my modifications are close to the kits stock figures. I'm not new to building or flying Ugly Sticks...I've probably built over two dozen Ugly Sticks over the years and all flew like a dream. Twins, three engines and even two, four engine Ugly Sticks. I've powered them with Cox .020's to 20cc gas engines...and no matter what anyone can say...Ugly Sticks are the most predictable and relaxing to fly, then just about any other model...not counting the Piper Cub.

You have a unusual pen name...BOX CAR. Does that have anything to do with a B-29 that flew out of North Field, on Tinian Island in 1945 ?

Soft Landings Always,
Bobby of Maui
Old 06-19-2014, 12:23 AM
  #89  
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Bob, my pen name was after the first alpaca born on my ranch, we called him Boxcar Willie after the singer. That should be one word in my pen name
Old 06-19-2014, 09:45 PM
  #90  
Bob Paris
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Aloha,
I finished the design of the stab and incorporated all of Leroy spoke about. I have built in a balanced elevator and installed bass wood between the horizontal stab and elevator. I drew a center line and marked where I'm going to center drill the holes for the Robart hinges, on the bass wood and tomorrow I'll use my drill press and drill the eight holes for my elevators. Leroy...that was a nice bit of information...thanks for the heads up.

The elevator and stabilizer will take a few more day's to finish...but I should have it finished this weekend for sure.

I finished skinning my rudder and also finish sanded the piece. Its ready for cover and I will cover the vertical fin, fore rudder and rudder in the next couple of days. Its going to be Canary Yellow and White.

I'm running out of room in my garage and I had to find a temporary place to stash my fuselage while I built up the tail feathers.

Soft Landings Always,
Bobby of Maui

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Old 06-24-2014, 10:02 PM
  #91  
Bob Paris
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Aloha,
Today I assembled and glued the starboard elevator together and tomorrow morning I'll get the port side done. I may cover my rudder and vertical fin tomorrow too, for its already to go.

I had a couple of domestic things to do...to keep the peace, but its building time again.

Soft Landings Always,
Bobby of Maui

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Old 06-26-2014, 11:00 PM
  #92  
Bob Paris
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Aloha,
I managed to finish the starboard elevator and now onto the port side. It took some fitting to get close enough for what I am looking for and now have the right half ready to cover. I drilled the holes for the Robart hinge's and glued that 3/8" sq. bass wood strip onto the horizontal stab. Tomorrow I'll finish gluing all the left side pieces onto that elevator and get it ready to cover. I also moved the 1/2" hole forward, to take up the added thickness of the 3/8" bass wood leading edge I added.

I also ordered two, FESTO, through the bulkhead, 3 mm metal fuel fittings, from Dream Works RC and two quick disconnect sets, with auto shut off-1/8" fittings, from Thunderbolt RC. These are the fittings that will allow me to run one 32 oz. fuel tank for both my EME 35's. I'll run fuel tubing through the wing, maybe... I also have a metal "T" fitting in house to split the fuel into two outlets and good Miracle fuel filters for each engine, that will be inside the fuselage. The fuel quick disconnects will allow for easy wing instillation and removal, with out it being a real hassle. I've a Miracle metal fuel over flow and fill station for the main fuel tank and I'll use yellow 1/8" gas fuel line. I'm debating to use 1/8" brass tubing to run in the wings, from the center wing section, to the nacelles. If I can get 3' long, 1/8" dia. tubing, I'll do it this way...but right now, I've found no local source for the tubing on island. Other wise, I'll just run yellow gas tubing through the wing, but to be honest...I'm not thrilled with yellow gas tubing. It gets hard over time, and I know of no other kind of tubing to use in the wing, other then brass tubing. A fuel leak in the wing would be a bit of work to fix and I do want just one fuel tank, on the CG, right now.

After I finish the elevators...I'll cover both the flight controls with Super Monokote and get all the radio gear and electronics into the fuselage. With this done...I'll be ready to cover the fuselage and begin building the wing jig. The kit comes with a full on wing jig for building the wings. So it will be warp free and much more simple to build up. We will see... how this goes.

Soft Landings Always,
Bobby of Maui

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Last edited by Bob Paris; 06-26-2014 at 11:10 PM.
Old 06-29-2014, 08:56 PM
  #93  
Leroy Gardner
 
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Bob I'd be tempted to use 3/16" brass tube for fuel lines in wing and neck it down where fuel lines connect and solder barbs on them, there would be less restriction in a larger fuel line making it easier on the engines pumps. You could also use the larger line stopper in the tank, you will need seperate fuel outlets, don't make the mistake of connecting them to a Y, sounds like you need a 4 hole stopper to make it all work right. Just my thoughts.

Arn't the nacelles large enough for a 14 oz. tanks, I use one on my DLE35cc and it runs for a bit over 20 min. with plenty of gas left , can't emagine yours using much more.

Your doing good, it's coming along nicely.

Leroy
Old 07-02-2014, 08:28 PM
  #94  
Bob Paris
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Hay Leroy,
Oh boy...I just received the 1/8", "through the bulkhead" brass fuel fittings and 3' lengths of 1/8" brass tubing. The 32 oz Roto center fuel tank has a fitting for 1/8" and I have read where 1/8" is large enough for engines up to 100cc. I have no personal knowledge of this at all and what really to do-so I figured I would use 1/8" tubing. I've never run a twin engine model of off just one fuel tank before either. Folks have said that this has been done and no big deal with gas fueled pressure carburetors...but to be honest...I really don't know how this combination will work. I also purchased quick disconnects w/auto shut off, for 1/8" tubing.

I purchased 1/8" bendable soft brass to make a 90 deg. turn from the wing into the nacelle and planned on ending up in the center of the nacelle with a hard line, for the fuel. I've round grommets to slide the fuel tubing into, through the wing and into the nacelle. This should handle any vibration issues with the fuel lines and I've brass tube barbs to solder onto the lines too. I may put a header tank into the nacelle and I do have two 4 oz. fuel tanks on hand for this if I decide to go this route. I'll know more as I build out the wing and nacelles and see how I will work this out.

Yes the nacelles look large enough for 16 oz. tanks and the room for all the ignition system. I have two batteries that will go into the nacelle, one 2000mha for the ignition and a 3200mha 3s 60C Lipo, for the auto start. It will also have the electric start electronics box, engine kill switch, two servo's, electronic tach, auto start arming switch, Miracle on/off switch for the ignition battery and if I go with a header tank, a fuel button. I may have a fuel button on the nacelle anyway, with or with out the header tank. I may start fueling the main fuel tank from each nacelle first, to run fuel into the system from the engines. Then top the main fuel tank from a closer fuselage fuel button, each time I fuel the model. I have a good quality aluminum "T" for the main fuel tank, and that will feed into the bulkhead mounted, through fittings. The only thing I'm not happy with is with the fuel tubing. All I can get is the yellow tubing here...and I know there is better fuel tubing to use, because this stuff in one season gets hard. A more flex able tubing would be nice...that stayed soft for several seasons. That is why I am running brass tubing down through the wing. If I used the yellow gas tubing I get here, I know it would fail within a couple of years.

The only real down side of living in an island...is that I must mail order everything I need...before I need it. Hobby goodies can take anywhere from five days to three months to get here...toss a coin and hope for the best. You can go Fed-X or UPS...but you will pay through the nose for shipping. Shipping an ARF can cost as much as the ARF itself...or at the least 1/2 its cost. For me...kits are the only way to go now.

__________________________________________________ _________________________

I finished the horizontal stabilizer and elevator and just minor finish sanding to get it ready to cover. I ended up putting in a bass wood 3/8" sq. leading edge on the stab. It stiffened up the leading edge and with one this size, I will need the protection this will give me.

Tomorrow I will take the fuselage down and set up the removable elevator. After I do this, I will cover the fin and stab, and mount all my fuselage electronics and systems. Then, I'll start the wing.

Soft Landings Always,
Bobby of Maui

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Last edited by Bob Paris; 07-02-2014 at 08:36 PM.
Old 07-03-2014, 11:49 PM
  #95  
Bob Paris
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Aloha,
Today I finished the removable stabilizer, drilled the mounting holes as needed, and began my prep for covering. I found I needed to install a 1/8" spacer onto the bottom of the fuselage floor, piece FF6. I had to sand the stab a bit to get the proper condition I wanted and ended up sanding 1/16" off of the top and bottom of the stab. So I cut a 1/8" section of light ply, marked and drilled the holes and sanded to shape. I glued it down with thick CA and moved on to the second piece of plywood for the bottom of the elevator, where all the screw heads will be torqued up against. I mounted the stabilizer onto the aft fuselage and drew out the over lapping piece of 1/8" ply for bottom of the stab. This piece of 1/8" ply is high quality aircraft grade plywood-its not light ply. After I fit and sanded this to shape, I marked and drilled the holes, making sure my alignment was perfect. I test fit the elevator and finished sanded the stab. This is my rendition of a removable stab...Its probably over built a bit, but its my first one that I've ever built and it seems true, square and solid.

Once you finish your stab and rudder, your finished with step 97 & 98 in the instruction manual...and you move onto assembly of the wing jig.

Its time to cover the stab and rudder, then begin the instillation of all the electronics and fuel system.

Happy Fourth of July guys...
Bobby of Maui

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Last edited by Bob Paris; 07-03-2014 at 11:56 PM.
Old 07-04-2014, 04:06 AM
  #96  
R/C Art
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Happy Fourth right back at you, Bobby.

I have been lurking in the background since you started this thread ..... mostly to get a feel for the kits from this company - quality, fit and ease of assembly. Looks like they are a good kit line.

If you are bolting balsa (the stab) to lite ply or a/c ply you might be creating an abnormal wear (both abrasive and crush) point. Just thinking out loud here - not saying its good or bad. I have a removable stab designed into my 1/3 scale Nieuport 11 and added a 1/32" a/c ply layer on the top and bottom of the stab where it mounts to the fuselage. It has proven to be sound over the 3 years I have been flying it.

I just flew my first multi-engine bomber last month ....... 110" PB4Y1 (Navy version of the B-24). I sure do like the sound when it flies by - TOO COOL!
I had been thinking about the 84" stick, but might go for a twin now

I am enjoying your build and looking forward to hearing your first engines run-up and seeing the maiden.

Cheers, Art
Old 07-04-2014, 08:40 AM
  #97  
Bob Paris
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Hay R/C ART,
I have a good quality ply on the bottom of the stab, glued in, for protection of the balsa stab...but I glued the upper light ply to the upper floor of the fuselage aft where the balsa stab will go up against. I realize now that I could have glued this light ply to the top of the stab...but I do hope mine works ok. If I suspect I will have a problem with the top of the stab, where it goes up against the fuselage aft floor, I will glue on a 1/64" plywood piece for this section.

I am going to install the full stab and rudder this morning and take a few pictures, then I will remove the tail feathers and cover them with Super Monokote.

By the way...would you post a few pictures of your PB4Y1. I've a Jack Stanford B24 I purchased from Jack...30+ years ago with the intension of making it a PB4Y1. Jack sent me the instructions on how to modify his kit and sold me extra .50 cal. guns and blisters for the conversion. I've never gotten around to build the kit...but its up in with my other kits.

Soft Landings Always,
Bobby of Maui
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Old 07-04-2014, 09:26 AM
  #98  
R/C Art
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So you plan on making it a later version - Privateer, with the large single fin and rudder?

What my Dad flew in WWII was basically a B-24D. He flew with the first photographic unit which mapped out the march through the South Pacific......this was a Marine Corps outfit, thus the Navy version PB4Y1.

This was a project my dad started back in the late 90's which he never saw finished. He passed in 2003. My Louisiana friend, Jeffrey Pike, finished the project to the flight ready stage and I flew it in team scale at this year's Mint Julep Scale Classic. It wasn't finished yet with all the bells and whistles or markings or even properly working flaps, but we did get a good maiden flight and 4 flights during the contest. Shoot, you can see the bean bag up front for balance. Jeffrey hopes to have it looking nice for the Scale Nationals to be flown next weekend. I am from Indiana, so we don't get any practice time. I guess we will practice during the first couple of flights at the Nats and then hope for a good 3rd and 4th round.

These pictures are engine tuning and roll out for the maiden fight.....oh, by the way, this is a 1/12 scale model built from Palmer plans. It spans 110 inches and is powered by 4 OS 26 four stroke engines.....don't know what the weight is.

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Old 07-04-2014, 11:41 AM
  #99  
Bob Paris
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Hay Art,
Yes...I have planned on building a PB4Y for years and looking forward to the build one day. The Jack Stanford kit is 90" wing span (I believe) and I have all the goodies to build up the model. The Stanford Liberator was built and flown with K&B .19's and flew quite will with these engines. I saw it fly at the old Sepulveda Basin flying field in San Fernando Valley, Los Angeles in the late 70's or early 80's. I was amazed at just how well the model flew and his build manual was really a nice read all it self. He had a bit of humor in his manual and it makes for a nice time building the model.

What did the full G.W. come out on your model?

Happy 4th. of July,
Bobby of Maui
Old 07-04-2014, 12:26 PM
  #100  
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We don't have an all up weight.......20+ lbs is Jeffrey's guess.

With the OS 26 4 strokes we had plenty of power. On the second flight we lost the left inboard engine on take off, just as it got about head high. I had plenty of power to finish the climb out and a couple of laps before we were cleared to land. It took a lot of right rudder to hold off the asymmetrical thrust, but I had good control all the way to touch down. I thought about turning toward the left, but as soon as I reduced the right rudder input, even a little bit, it yawed hard left - so I just continued my pattern to the right.

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