bikerbc

Propworn I have the greatest respect for a man that will apoligize for his mistakes in public . We all go overboard on ocasion but very few of us have the gonads to own up to our mistakes even to ourselves .I am glad you removed the post . If I said anything too offend you I too am sorry and deserve a kick in the rump .

acerc

I removed my post as also and my subscription as well. Staying dead on target with this subject is just to boring.

Leroy Gardner

long gone

Propworn

My Feedback: (3)

Leroy somewhere in this thread I believe you mentioned competing with this model. Before you paint it please read this http://www.rcscalebuilder.com/Tutori...gYourModel.pdf

I was Scale Chairman for several years in Canada and long before that when I first thought about competing I built a very nice generic Aeronca complete with pk screws and pinking tape etc. Luckily before I painted it in what I thought was a great combination someone took the time to explain what the judges are looking for in scale. I scrambled for over a year to find a prototype with colors I liked and was a close match to what I had built. Even then there were enough discrepancies the best I could fly it in was Standoff Scale. It would be most disappointing to show up at a competition and find out you could only compete in the same category with ARFs and someone flying a model they bought from someone else;.

Dennis

Leroy Gardner

long gone

TonyBuilder

My Feedback: (11)

Leroy, I have a question for you, I just want to understand as I am confused with this build thread. What are you looking for and why do you feel that build threads are usless if there is not an endless stream of suggestions, ideas, and praise. Build threads in my opinion are a place to share and to get together with builders that enjoy good craftsmen ship. As most advanced builders, they don't really post so others can help them build, they already know what to do and what they want to do. I rearely or never deviate from my game plan and regardless what others say I build as I want to. If I need help or suggestions I ask. I don't get why you are so disappointed at the contributions and participation of this thread. Maybe in future build threads you may want to line out your personal guidelines to your thread, like don't post unless it is information I can use or if you have a spicific question to the current topic. To be honest all the drama and your sentiment about this thread is off putting and not enjoyable to watch. Leroy your a great builder and nice guy and I hope you don't take this the wrong way, I just don't like seeing you struggle with build threads, it's just a build thread.

TB

Propworn

My Feedback: (3)

Leroy scale competition consists of building a model that emulates a specific prototype which includes outlines and color markings. Then you must fly it in a prototypical fashion using only those maneuvers that the plane was capable of. When flying the model you must fly the maneuvers that best show the flight capabilities of the prototype. That is what separates a top builder/flyer from a top scale builder/flyer. The ability to emulate a specific full size aircraft and its detail is what it’s all about. I’ve seen judges call into question the tail wheel used as the rim did not match the picture in the documentation.

Your wrong Judges for the most part are very knowledgeable. As are those who choose to compete. Some have spent years researching their choices. When I competed with my Aeronca I visited the man who owned it, took many pictures. He even took me for a flight and talked about the maneuvers he used to fly with it when it was fresher. When I built my Pitts I chose G-FLIK as the prototype. I contacted the owner, arranged pictures and built and flew it for many years. My Zivco Edge 540 was modeled after Chandra Clanton's original. I contacted her through her father at Duncan Aviation and arranged for 8 rolls of 35 mm film of the plane to be taken.

If you don’t document and emulate a prototype you’ve built a beautiful generic model that will be right at home at any fun fly but hardly competitive in scale competition.

Many of us involved in Scale have worked hard to ease the rules so entrance into scale competition was more welcoming. Even ARFs have their own class now. One thing that will never change is entering a non prototype model. It defeats the whole idea of scale.

Dennis

TonyBuilder

My Feedback: (11)

Dennis, thank you for your exsplination of scale compitition, yes there are some good and some bad when it comes to judging. I understand the reqierment to replicate a full scale modle/ scheme. But I also think that the most important part should be the replication of the said aircraft as it was assembled in the factor, the color should be in addition not the deciding factor. Maybe some day there will be a division or even a grand chapion division of a spicific aircraft to scale with liberties of scheame as this is a post WWII era with many great civilian aircraft.

As to documentation the judging is based on the competitors provided documentation not the judges knolage of a spicific aircraft.

I am sure there 100s of planes that never had a photo documentation but have a written history and one could take librities there as his documentation is all that exists.

I will be starting to compeat in scale compitition my self and will start in the more liberal ARF division, but working to more scale divisions.

As you mention it is not just the building but the flying too.

TB

Leroy Gardner

sorry.

rt3232

My Feedback: (6)

Leroy

I am sorry to hear you feel that way. But for my part the info you have provided for my bash is greatly appreciated.

Cheers Bob T

Propworn

My Feedback: (3)

That’s not how it works. An aircraft often times gets re-painted or altered once it leaves the factory or changes ownership. My Pitts for instance had 4 different paint jobs in a short time due to changes in sponsorship while it was on the air show circuit. Things are added to improve performance or to aid in control for instance dorsal fins on planes that were fitted with floats. To compete in scale anywhere in the world you not only have to pick the prototype but the era your documentation represents.

Thus the reason for documentation so that someone cannot enter a fantasy subject. It’s been attempted with some creative photo shopping however as far as I am aware of the discrepancies are always pointed out and it’s considered a form of cheating.


No you must present documentation. If you cannot then you receive zero for that portion or refused entry into the competition. If no color pictures exist as with my WW1 Bristol MC1 You may use the three views and color chips. These color chips must be from a certified/recognized source as determined by the judges.


One important thing to understand. The judges have the final say. Sometimes there may be an appeal process but in the end the judge’s decision will be final. This is important if you decide to do maneuvers outside the normal flight envelope of the model or not described in the section on acceptable maneuvers. It is your responsibility to provide proof that the prototype did such a maneuver. On one occasion I was allowed to do a barrel roll and egg shaped loop with my Aeronca because I provided proof that several air shows used a 65 hp Aeronca to do these maneuvers as part of their show. There were directions on exactly how they did them putting the least amount of stress on the airframe. The second time I competed the one judge stated “I am sure that the maneuvers were done as described however I don’t believe they were done with the aircraft you have chosen to model so I am not going to allow it as an optional maneuver.” End of story I had to substitute two other maneuvers in there place.

If you’re going to compete please talk to someone who has. Get them to help you put a flight routine together and show you how it’s done. Nothing kills the want to enter the competition field as quickly as spending a goodly amount of time, effort and expense only to get frustrated and upset because you are told you are not ready to compete because of lack of preparation. You must practice until you can do the maneuvers the same time after time in all kinds of wind conditions. When you start out pick a model that handles winds especially crosswinds well. I don’t care if the prevailing wind always blows right down the runway the day of the competition it will be a crosswind believe me.

Dennis

Melchizedek

Leroy,

I am saddened things have gone this way.

I also appreciate all that you and the contributors have offered on this build.

Kevin

Propworn

My Feedback: (3)

Yes Leroy its to bad you have chosen this path to end the thread. The build was very interesting with a wealth of knowledge and skill. The sidebars took nothing away from the build or your skill and you would have seen that if you had let it develop. I equate it to having flying buddies drop by my shop. The main interest is what my latest project is and how I am going about it but there is plenty of back and forth and discussion of others projects at the same time. At times there have been up to seventeen/eighteen builders in my 2 car garage/shop. Its impractical to channel the attention of everyone on a single project. Half a dozen around my build the rest in various strains of discussion on what ever, it really doesn't mater and another group on my pc looking at pictures of some other members project. I think of a good thread as a place where everyone is welcome and even if your only contribution is a good joke that gets everyone laughing good for you glad you could stop by, come again soon when you can stay a little longer.

Dennis

bigbird3

Dennis, I agree. I feel that there must be some other talk even if it is limited. I never dwell on one project in my shop when someone drops by. I'm sure someone would consider me 'anal' if I was that much of a control freek! I have butted out lately because of the 'fater/children' bantering. I've pissed in my coffee on this blog several times so I kind of stayed in my corner and watched. Many times I have wanted to chime in on the childish like attitude but, I didn't!
So, having said my piece, I'll just step back in the shadows and keep my peace! I've kind of lost interest in this project because of the 'bigger pee pee' than you syndrom. Some need to build a bridge and get over themselves. If this blg ends, it won't be because any of us out here want it to.
bird.

Bob Howard

My Feedback: (2)

Sad to see you close this thread. I was enjoying the build and wanted to see it finished.

Leroy Gardner

sorry

John_M_

I see it like this... you invite a bunch of people over for a party, the party has a theme to it; lets just say to celebrate someone getting their pilots license... if you include in the invitation, there will be no conversations other than what the theme of the party is, quite a few probably will not R.S.V.P... then during the party, when conversations slip outside of the realm of the theme... the host may choose to deal with it in a few ways... ignore it and let it fade, as most of the time it does... ask those to refrain form their discussions, with a stern disapproval if they don't, they will be asked to leave the party, which puts even more light on the hosts lack of diplomacy ... ooooor, bring the discussion back into focus in a subliminal way without anyone the wiser by discussing things related to the theme of the party, by showing pictures, or video, or just reminiscing about the theme... but to put ones foot down and demanding these conversations cease immediately, will always result in people leaving the party... there are ways to bring the focus back without all the upset... I've never been to a party where there are no sidebar groups talking amongst themselves; for the host to admonish them for it, will most likely be unpleasant for all whom attend the party.

I have no bad feelings against Leroy, I've already stated he's a talented builder, but you can only invite people to the party, and those that are interested in the theme of the party will attend... you can't make people attend by showing your frustrations openly that no one is showing up to the party... you present it as best you can, which Leroy has done... then you just wait and see who shows up to get the part started.

John M,

bigbird3

Just wondering if these issues exist over at RCG? Or are we the exception? Seems unlikely! Too bad, I rather enjoyed the thread till the whining started. Want cheese with that whine?
I like being in control but that was rediculous!
bird.

rt3232

My Feedback: (6)

Bigbird3

I watch a few build on RCG and I see the same things, a lot more severe there, but if a build I still go see if it is back on track or just wait a week and check back.

Just my thoughts

Cheers bob T

Propworn

My Feedback: (3)

I am afraid I don't see Leroy enjoying competition very much. He doesn't agree with the rules and expectations that have been in use since the inception of scale competition. The biggest thing is the judging as it will be someone’s opinion of his building and flying skills. From the tone of his posts here I think this is going to be a huge obstacle for him to overcome.

From experience starting out at advanced levels of competition instead of working ones way through the ranks gaining experience along the way is a sure road to frustration for even the most laid back person. It’s going to be difficult for Leroy I wish him well and a good time but I feel it’s most likely to be a one time venture that may well leave a bitter taste.

Dennis

Propworn

My Feedback: (3)

dang double post again

John_M_

Well from what I understand over at RCG, the thread author has more control over the thread than here at RCU... I figure he'll close the thread over there in between build updates, or if things don't stay on focus..

He's just frustrated bird, I think he was expecting a lot more interest in the build... it will come when he shows the finishing details.

@ Propworn... I think Leroy did well with his Spacwalker at local events... depends on how serious one wants to get with competing... Top Gun for instance, is a whole new ball game... I wish him well... I've never entered any scale events, and don't plan too, because I don't want a scale model of someone else's RW aircraft, but I may pick and choose various scale details from various RW aircraft and add them to my model... my only competition is with myself, and my show is just with my flying buddies at our club... I don't take it seriously, just for fun.



John M,

bigbird3

Dennis, again I agree with you. If one is to compete, they must have a good temperment. Leroy did show some restaurant at first but then started to disintegrate quite early on then that was all he addressed in the end. One thing, if he gets rattled on the judging, he won't do well on the flying part. I have seen many times that most really good builders are not equally good fliers! That is why many of them go into team scale. You, being intimate acquainted with competition have seen this first hand I'm sure. They score very high, like, 190's on static only to place very poorly over all because of their lack of flying skills. As you said, many times it is enough to run someone off the first time. I've been modeling since 1965 and have considered trying scale but figure it to be vanity on my part. A good friend of mine offered to get me an invite to top gun but I don't want to get trapped in that loop. Make sense? With my temperment, I would probable be another Frank Tiano!!!! The world does well with one of those! I don't know him but only know of him and we wouldn't get along very long.
There is something to be said about drawing lines in the sand, every line requires effort and time to defend. It's a lot more peaceful just letting it go. Makes for a better life!
thanks for letting me bend your ear.
Bird.

bigbird3

Well said John m. I have said that all along. I'm the only one I'm in competition with. The rest can beat themselves up all they want!
as you and I already discussed, it's bad enough they think we are know it all's anyway! AYE?
I learned to say AYE? Living so close to the Canadian border in Vermont. AYE? Perhaps I'll go up and see Dennis one day. Love to meet our bro's up there. Guess it depends on which end he lives on!
Bird.

FlyerInOKC

My Feedback: (6)

I could see myself entering a local scale event but anything more than that I would have to go team with a lot better pilot than myself. i know my limitations and where my interests lie.