Where have all the builders gone
01-27-2015, 05:41 PM
#226
Originally Posted by mattnew 
I keep reading this and saying "not really"... not trying to start a fight, and not trying to attack you, but I hear these statements often... and I just want to comment....
If someone DOESN'T want to build.. there are ARFs for that, and thats fine, my point is if people don't want to build they can just say that and don't need excuses. :-)
as for better and safer....
better: I have 4 ARFs in my stable that are current flyers. I am of the opinion, ( and a company is welcome to prove me wrong ) that in order to mass produce a ready to fly or ARF plane you have to make compromises in the assembly and design in order to make them quicker and cheaper. I think these compromises don't necessarily exist in scratch built or kit built planes as the cost of construction is passed on to the consumer... There are some good ARFs out there..I just feel that if you build it yourself and don't make the compromises that are inherent in an ARF ( hot glue anyone ? )you end up with a better plane in the end. I also think they fly better, but it could be my pride showing :-)
99% of safer is between the ears, not in the plane.
Hear here!! Good point re: don't want to build. People who want to build find the time. Example, even with arthritis in my fingers, when my 10 year old grandson asks me to design and build an F18 look alike for rubber power, guess what....I drew it and it's on my building board.
In regard to ARFies, some have come a long way. I really like the stuff Extreme Flight puts out. The Extra I assembled from their components was quite strong, very light (several pounds lighter than other stuff of similar size) for its size and was straight. I know a couple of the people associated with that endeavor. A great deal of design work took place not just on the models but the fixtures used in the builds at the factory in China. Then there is the continuous training Chris Hinson and team do to the workers to make sure the products continue to meet EF standards and modeler standards. Can't vouch for anyone else's ARFs since I don't as a rule do ARF's, but EF products are a notch above. FWIW
In regard to ARFies, some have come a long way. I really like the stuff Extreme Flight puts out. The Extra I assembled from their components was quite strong, very light (several pounds lighter than other stuff of similar size) for its size and was straight. I know a couple of the people associated with that endeavor. A great deal of design work took place not just on the models but the fixtures used in the builds at the factory in China. Then there is the continuous training Chris Hinson and team do to the workers to make sure the products continue to meet EF standards and modeler standards. Can't vouch for anyone else's ARFs since I don't as a rule do ARF's, but EF products are a notch above. FWIW
Every one that knows anything that if U expect your ARF to last U have to go thru it and re epoxy the jouints that are hot glued to gether ... Most people again don't have the skill or even the knolage to build or do an ARF properly. That's not their fault it's yours .... That's where the old timers and U so called expert builders should have the ware with all to help not critize.
Had a world champion model builder in our club that, designed many planes, is/was in the AMA hall of fame, and scratched built every thing even made his own fuel. This gentleman was the most sarcastic look down his nose at anything not to his liking in public. U get him one on one and he would help U to no end and he made sure U understood what he was trying to teach show U.
01-27-2015, 06:52 PM
#228
I built with balsa all my life but 2 years ago started to learn how to build with cheap Dollar tree foam and Dow fanfold i get free off of construction jobs i run. So for as little as 4 bucks plus cheap motor,servos and reciever you can build a rc plane or trainer to fly. I built 3 of these for the grandkids to learn on and they fly slow and lots of fun for them . joe
01-27-2015, 08:33 PM
#230
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'll either buy an ARF, or scratchbuild.
The only kit I really loved was a Yoshioka Flash .45.
I started to scratchbuild an Ugly Stick in May 2015 to fit in my small car at the time.
It is this Ugly Stick http://www.eurekaaircraft.com/plan_kits/uglystick60.htm. I took the plans, made changes in adobe illustrator for a wing tube system and reduced them to 85% of original size.
Then I built it using Depron core sides, laminate 1/32 balsa sheet capped with 3mm balsa edging (before the sheet laminate).
Wings were built in a great planes jig (rods). Created my own wing tube out of aluminum camp chair leg and socket via this tutorial http://www.ofremmi.info/HowTo/Wingtu...%20sockets.htm. Used polyester resin.
Made the horizontal and vertical stabilizers angular (not round) in form, the same way as the fuselage sides. Created a removal system for these using one 4-40 hex screw through the tailwheel mount (DuBro) Locks in alignment perfectly.
Covered the fuse ailerons and stabilizers in silkspan (hard to find now) and Polycryl. Covered the wings with silkspan on wood (1/32 balsa) sheeting for strength then ironed on Walmart dress liner polyester. Shrunk then sealed with polycryl.
Primed with autobody spray primer from Walmart. Sanded off most all of it. Wings Prime coated with white latex (too difficult to use and unforgiving for touch ups) for wings. Used Krylon for primer coat for fuselage and stabs. Then white basecoat (latex)
Trimmed with Rustoleum yellow. Kyrlon Fluorescent orange (flat), Krylon dark blue (flat).
Sealed with Minwax Oil based Polyurethane spray (satin, to make the air boundary layer stick
). 5 pounds dry. Fox .45 powered. Aluminum LG, 11.5 x 4 prop.
If I had to do it over, I would not use Polycryl on wing sheeting. It warped some panels and i had to use a lot of vinyl light spackle to true up the D tube. I think that oil based polyurethane as a sealer over the wood would have waterproofed the wing structure, then perimeter coat the edges of the wing framing with Polycryl to give the polyester something to iron to. It's strong stuff once finished.
As I said the latex paint method (Roy Vaillancourt) for this project was tedious for this. I had total success with it on a scratch built FW 190.
I'm flight trimming it now and it's pretty precise. Love the two piece wing.
As for ARFs, The precision of the offerings really can't be beat for the money and materials. I just don't like saggy covering and chasing it. They are so light though. One is in my future.
The only kit I really loved was a Yoshioka Flash .45.
I started to scratchbuild an Ugly Stick in May 2015 to fit in my small car at the time.
It is this Ugly Stick http://www.eurekaaircraft.com/plan_kits/uglystick60.htm. I took the plans, made changes in adobe illustrator for a wing tube system and reduced them to 85% of original size.
Then I built it using Depron core sides, laminate 1/32 balsa sheet capped with 3mm balsa edging (before the sheet laminate).
Wings were built in a great planes jig (rods). Created my own wing tube out of aluminum camp chair leg and socket via this tutorial http://www.ofremmi.info/HowTo/Wingtu...%20sockets.htm. Used polyester resin.
Made the horizontal and vertical stabilizers angular (not round) in form, the same way as the fuselage sides. Created a removal system for these using one 4-40 hex screw through the tailwheel mount (DuBro) Locks in alignment perfectly.
Covered the fuse ailerons and stabilizers in silkspan (hard to find now) and Polycryl. Covered the wings with silkspan on wood (1/32 balsa) sheeting for strength then ironed on Walmart dress liner polyester. Shrunk then sealed with polycryl.
Primed with autobody spray primer from Walmart. Sanded off most all of it. Wings Prime coated with white latex (too difficult to use and unforgiving for touch ups) for wings. Used Krylon for primer coat for fuselage and stabs. Then white basecoat (latex)
Trimmed with Rustoleum yellow. Kyrlon Fluorescent orange (flat), Krylon dark blue (flat).
Sealed with Minwax Oil based Polyurethane spray (satin, to make the air boundary layer stick
). 5 pounds dry. Fox .45 powered. Aluminum LG, 11.5 x 4 prop.If I had to do it over, I would not use Polycryl on wing sheeting. It warped some panels and i had to use a lot of vinyl light spackle to true up the D tube. I think that oil based polyurethane as a sealer over the wood would have waterproofed the wing structure, then perimeter coat the edges of the wing framing with Polycryl to give the polyester something to iron to. It's strong stuff once finished.
As I said the latex paint method (Roy Vaillancourt) for this project was tedious for this. I had total success with it on a scratch built FW 190.
I'm flight trimming it now and it's pretty precise. Love the two piece wing.
As for ARFs, The precision of the offerings really can't be beat for the money and materials. I just don't like saggy covering and chasing it. They are so light though. One is in my future.
01-27-2015, 10:30 PM
#232
???????
Tryin' to understand the comment... Is that a joke or do you not know that even a plane you buy already built was built by somebody or ???? Sorry, I understand the individual words but I'm just not getting your message.
Tryin' to understand the comment... Is that a joke or do you not know that even a plane you buy already built was built by somebody or ???? Sorry, I understand the individual words but I'm just not getting your message.
01-28-2015, 05:36 AM
#236
My Feedback: (2)
[QUOTE=sierratango;11966961]Here is my two cents. There are way too many distractions in this complex world and these distractions compete with the amount of effort and time required to make these beautiful projects.
Let us also face the fact that builders are a special breed. The world is not filled with these types of people. I get depressed if I am not creating something. I want to creat unique creations, I don't want to be like all the rest. Many people strive to be accepted into the flock, I fly away from it.]
I could not possibly have said it any simpler or more to my exact point of view as I have made this near very statement myself for MANY of my later modeling years.
With the competing distractions referenced, it in fact dose take more time these days to do the same thing of years gone by. The desire is the same or even greater, but carving out time is not easy but we make it happen anyway as the rewards are just as great these days.
To all of my scale designer and builder friends, keep up what your doing as this hobby is a MUCH BETTER PLACE with all of you in it than not. I encourage every ARF modeler to build at least one kit for the experience. You may actually enjoy it as there will never be another one just like it !
Kerry S.
Let us also face the fact that builders are a special breed. The world is not filled with these types of people. I get depressed if I am not creating something. I want to creat unique creations, I don't want to be like all the rest. Many people strive to be accepted into the flock, I fly away from it.]
I could not possibly have said it any simpler or more to my exact point of view as I have made this near very statement myself for MANY of my later modeling years.
With the competing distractions referenced, it in fact dose take more time these days to do the same thing of years gone by. The desire is the same or even greater, but carving out time is not easy but we make it happen anyway as the rewards are just as great these days.
To all of my scale designer and builder friends, keep up what your doing as this hobby is a MUCH BETTER PLACE with all of you in it than not. I encourage every ARF modeler to build at least one kit for the experience. You may actually enjoy it as there will never be another one just like it !
Kerry S.
Last edited by Vampire; 01-28-2015 at 05:42 AM.
01-28-2015, 06:53 AM
#237
Junior Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Riverview,
FL
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am still here, I don't build as much but am still building. I have moved to building e-flight type kits, either prop or ducted fan. My primary flyer is a Top Flight 2.1 Corsair. Building takes to much time and dedication, to keep people in the hobby ARF's allow for rc'ers to keep flying as we are all pressed for time. I fly less because of time not desire. I have even less time to build.
01-28-2015, 12:17 PM
#240
My Feedback: (-1)
Not a clue. It was finished at the end of summer and I was having a lot of problems. My eye site was so bad I had double vision and started crashing planes so I put down my radio until I got the eye surgery. Then I had my back fixed well enough to be able to stand long enough to fly again. I'm repaired now but have only flown a few times. I have fired it up to get the engine tuned but want to do it once more before I take it out. This week I plan on taking the little Roar out for the maiden.
The thing about the Prime Cut wass how easy it is to build. Small parts count and nothing fancy, mater of fact it was boring to build. The plans are CAD drawn and everything fit for a change.Even the holes for the wing tube were dead on. The wing is almost a big Roar wing except it is symmetrical. Best plans I have ever gotten. I did have to widen my building board to make the wing though.
The Sukhoi plans are a nightmare and nothing fits correctly but when finished it is really a fantastic flying plane. One of the few I have ever built two of for myself. I did do a build thread on the Prime Cut and I may have done one for the Sukhoi? I usually try to post up at least part of a build here on RCU. The Sukhoi isn't a good one to do a thread on though, every part needs to be hand fit.
The thing about the Prime Cut wass how easy it is to build. Small parts count and nothing fancy, mater of fact it was boring to build. The plans are CAD drawn and everything fit for a change.Even the holes for the wing tube were dead on. The wing is almost a big Roar wing except it is symmetrical. Best plans I have ever gotten. I did have to widen my building board to make the wing though.
The Sukhoi plans are a nightmare and nothing fits correctly but when finished it is really a fantastic flying plane. One of the few I have ever built two of for myself. I did do a build thread on the Prime Cut and I may have done one for the Sukhoi? I usually try to post up at least part of a build here on RCU. The Sukhoi isn't a good one to do a thread on though, every part needs to be hand fit.
01-28-2015, 01:20 PM
#241
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: los angeles, CA
Posts: 106
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am getting ready for something special, I have been thinking about it for weeks and I think about it when I wake up at 4am to go pee. I think about when I try to go to sleep.
I am about ready to build the mechanism which will tie the VS to the HS and also actuate the elevator on my T- tail with a sliding automatic hookup.
All carbon.
This is what I am talking about when I speak of unique. LOVE IT! It is the challenge of doing something unique the first time and then perfecting it.
The pictures show tooling dough inside the molds used to capture the correct space inside the mold after placing 30 mils of pipe tape which simulates the thickness of the carbon cloth laminations. There will be no Rohacell foam in those areas.
It will become more clear once I take some more photos once the process gets underway.
I am about ready to build the mechanism which will tie the VS to the HS and also actuate the elevator on my T- tail with a sliding automatic hookup.
All carbon.
This is what I am talking about when I speak of unique. LOVE IT! It is the challenge of doing something unique the first time and then perfecting it.
The pictures show tooling dough inside the molds used to capture the correct space inside the mold after placing 30 mils of pipe tape which simulates the thickness of the carbon cloth laminations. There will be no Rohacell foam in those areas.
It will become more clear once I take some more photos once the process gets underway.
01-28-2015, 02:44 PM
#242
Senior Member
Every one that knows anything that if U expect your ARF to last U have to go thru it and re epoxy the jouints that are hot glued to gether ... Most people again don't have the skill or even the knolage to build or do an ARF properly. That's not their fault it's yours .... That's where the old timers and U so called expert builders should have the ware with all to help not critize. But I admit I've gotten irritated when someone approached me and my latest design I hand crafted from scratch and asked me "Where did you get that ARF? ......."
01-28-2015, 11:06 PM
#244
[QUOTE=TheCalgarian;11970814]Looking great! Which kit is that? What power will it have? Good luck and keep up the good work.[/QUOTE
Thanks, Its a Great Planes Electricub, 58" WS, I plan on brushless, not sure what size yet? Any input would be appreciated. I made some more progress today but didn't get many pics, I mounted the wing and horiz stab, also got the cowl cut, I think I am learning to hold my breath on some of these things and hope it all comes out right LOL.
Thanks, Its a Great Planes Electricub, 58" WS, I plan on brushless, not sure what size yet? Any input would be appreciated. I made some more progress today but didn't get many pics, I mounted the wing and horiz stab, also got the cowl cut, I think I am learning to hold my breath on some of these things and hope it all comes out right LOL.
01-28-2015, 11:09 PM
#245
The best thing for me is watching my kids get enthusiastic about building things, my 16 yo son is starting a 1/2a house of balsa P-51 ( don't worry we have trainers) and my 6 yo daughter wants to build a trainer, she only gets titebond lol
01-29-2015, 04:24 AM
#246
Interesting point. If you ever read any of the threads I started and sustained, they are all about educating others. One of my threads in fact became a sticky. When my club had a website, I was a regular contributor with a variety of stuff for builders. I tried to always be approachable allowing any question no matter how screwey.
But I admit I've gotten irritated when someone approached me and my latest design I hand crafted from scratch and asked me "Where did you get that ARF? ......."
But I admit I've gotten irritated when someone approached me and my latest design I hand crafted from scratch and asked me "Where did you get that ARF? ......."
Bob
01-29-2015, 06:25 AM
#248
Hahaha
When I first moved here and join my club, the same think happened when I brought my Midwest Extra out,, guys asking "who makes that ARF" ,, I said "Me, it's was a kit" "REALLY???" they say, like they found a long lost dodo bird,, I think they'd only seen pictures of kit built planes, never actually touched one. I still don't think they believe I scratch built my Kingfisher
When I first moved here and join my club, the same think happened when I brought my Midwest Extra out,, guys asking "who makes that ARF" ,, I said "Me, it's was a kit" "REALLY???" they say, like they found a long lost dodo bird,, I think they'd only seen pictures of kit built planes, never actually touched one. I still don't think they believe I scratch built my Kingfisher
