Fidsatom

Just thought to ask for opinions of the easy to apply covering for a 1/5 Sib Cub. I have the : Harry " covering book and will practive but it seems as if some coverings are much more tolerant of mistakes. This will be in Cub Yellow and I'd like as nice and smooth covering as possible. Looks like lots of the quality is dependend on the surface and since I do some custom helmet/motorcycle airbrush and standard painting getting the surface smooth should be fairly straightforward for me.

I've heard good things about 21st Century Coverite and Monocote of course.

Thanks in advance

Tom

TomCrump

I like the 21 Century fabric but any of the fabric type coverings are fine. They are easier to work with than Moneycoat.

21st Century Cub Yellow paint is a close match to their fabric color.

pete913

If you're not averse to spraying dope, I'd say to give Sig Koverall a try. It's MUCH easier to apply around curves etc, than any of the plastic films, is lightweight, looks much more scalelike on a cub type airplane, and unlike plastic film, you won't see every single imperfection in the underlying surface, and no bubbles, ever. Koverall and 5 coats of properly applied dope is still lighter than plastic film. Tom ha ha, moneykote? you got that right!

MinnFlyer

My Feedback: (4)

Ultracote is way easier to use than MonkeyKote.

21st Century fabric is only slightly more difficult than Ultracote, but it gives a great finish to a large Cub.

hopkimf

My Feedback: (56)

I have used 21 Century fabric and Solartex. They both do a good job, but I prefer Solartex. After using cloth covering, it has been more difficult for me to do a good job with Monocote. Don't know why, but the cloth seems easier for me. It would look nice on a Cub.

kdheath

To my eye, Cubs look really funny in Monokote because of the shiny plastic surface. Cubs are covered in fabric and dope and almost never have a slick finish. If I rate strength, ease of application, and final appearance, Koverall wins for strength and appearance, SolarTex for ease of application. 21stCentury works easily, but I've had trouble with paint checking over it. On the Solartex and 21stCentury, it'a a good idea to spray a coat of clear dope or epoxy-sometimes fuel and oil will stain the finish.

Rodney

I agree with hopkimf, Solartex is much easier to work with than 21st Cent. is. The only drawback with any of the fabrics is that the weave tends to collect dirt and grime more than the films and is harder to clean. A good top coat takes care of that. In general, any of the fabrics are easier to use than the films and are much much stronger and resistant to punctures and other knocks.

FLYBOY

My Feedback: (11)

Any covering is good if you take your time. You can also have someone that knows how to use it show you and make it worlds easier.

rflasch

My Feedback: (8)

SOLARTEX ---IMHO very easy to apply specially around curves, very very tough covering--I have NEVER had a hole in my covering from hanger rash or gravel--I have to fly off asphalt which serves as a commercial drying surface for ag products so it's not always real clean!!!!

Cub yellow with a clearcoat of your choice and you will probably never go to the films...

Please don't flame me here...some of you guys have the patience of saints and superb skill with monokote/ultracote but I had a friend new to building and set him up with Solartex for his first job (a citabria) and it came out really really nice...his success has encouraged him to later try some monokote. He has mentioned a couple times that if he hadn't done such a nice job on his citabria he would have never had the patience to work with monkote....

Solartex a good place to start....

Fidsatom

to TomCrump, Pete913, Minnflyer, hopkimf, Rodney, FLYBOY, and rflash

Thanks for all your good advice. It looks like I should give Solartex a try at least on some trial pieces.

One thing still confuses me, and that is the term " Dope ". I do recall covering full size aircraft back in the 40's and 50's as a kid and what we used was a lacquer based clear paint with great adhesion but a tendence to check and yellow.

Since all lacquers at this time are acrylic, does the term " dope " refer to clear lacquer? or to some other material?

Seems like a completely clueless question I know but an answer will help.

Again, thanks in advance and for your help so far.

pete913

My understanding of what dope actually consists of is limited, but I do know that nitrate dope is used on full scale airplanes as an undercoat, i think mostly because of its excellent adhesive properties, and to help shrink the covering back when they covered airplanes with grade A cotton and Irish linen. The stuff will burn like gasoline though, and sunlight will deteriorate it. That's probably why you dont' see too many WW1 airplanes around these days, ha! Butyrate, on the other hand, is used only for finish coats. Nitrate isn't fuel proof, but butyrate is. Both are more flexible than paint. When I use dope to finish a plane, i'll use Balsarite to attach the covering, then give it a coat of clear nitrate to seal the covering, then 4 or 5 sprayed finish coats of butyrate as a rule for color, and a couple coats of clear butyrate for fuel proofing. The amount of coats sorta depends on the look you want and its not unusual on full scale stuff to have upwards of 20 coats of butyrate. The one thing I like about dope compared to paint is that its much lighter, the stuff is half solvent to begin with. Another thing, I've never tried water base polyurethane varnish instead of dope, but i use lots of it in woodworking, and I dont see any reason why it wouldn't work. The stuff is a lot safer, no solvent issues to deal with, and I assume it could be colored with paint pigments. And now, with heat shrink polyester coverings, dope really isn't necessary to help shrink the covering anyway.

Fidsatom

Pete

Thanks for the info.
It seems as if I'm just going to have to get small quantities of eact type and test them. I an a bit confused as I've always considered " dope " as paint just without any pigment. The difference between nitrate based chemicals and buytrate based is significant. Unless I'm mistaken nirates support combustion, but butyrates will sort of burn, giving off an oily dense smole however they will self extinguish to a marked degree when the flame or heat source is withdrawn.

Obviously that has little to do with my seeking advice on the best covaring material for a rank beginner.

Thanks again

Tom

kdheath

I have to make the distinction that I'm no chemist-but, as I understand it, dope is acrylic lacquer and the nitrate/butyrate are the solids dissolved in a solvent. Dope stinks, it takes a zillion coats, it has to be sanded and sanded and buffed. There is nothing like the finished product, though. Nothing, and I mean nothing is as pretty as a hand rubbed dope finish.

Fidsatom

Thanks kdheath

I've got it now. The stuff we used to use on full size planes was nitrocelluose based lacquer. That material has long since been replaced with acrylic lacquer and/or butyrate lacquer. BTW, the solvent most commonly used is toulene. Since I've painted a few cars in my time with all sorts of lacquers I agree with you that nothing beats that finish. The new catylized urethanes and epoxys are so much tougher and longer lasting and have so much less VOCs that it is getting darn hard to get decent lacquers. Of course the new stuff is highly toxic, deadly poisionous, and the effects are cumulative. Not to mention the booth required.

Thanks
Tom

CafeenMan

umm.... no. Dope is not acrylic lacquer. If you get raw fuel on acrylic lacquer, the lacquer will wipe off as if you just sprayed it. It IS NOT fuel proof. Dope is. It is not lacquer based. If you use lacquer, then you have to top-coat it with something that is fuel proof.

Fidsatom

Cafeen Man

Thanks for the advice.
Since I've painted many a full size car/motorcycle/helmet etc with acrylic lacquer, it must be the nitromethane in the model fuel. Or.,,,,,,,,, maybe the methanol? It sure can't be the oil either synthetic or castor. I'll have to go out and do some real tests.

I do know that acrylic lacquer stands well on sprint cars that use methanol for fuel, and in my own case it stands up well to the really volatile 120+ octane race fuel I use in my full size stuff.

I'l go out tomorrow or the next day and give it a test.

Thanks
Tom

cknaack

My Feedback: (1)

Ultracote............... By far the easiest of all films. You will be impressed!

rickwallace45

My Feedback: (3)

UltraCote is my favorite by far for good results with minimal pain and error.--
Some recommendations:
1. Get an iron (like the Century 21 iron) that has a real temp setting / gage in degrees.
2. The working temperature matters with most any covering. The covering will behave differently at 350 ° than at 250° -- and both temp's have their uses in a covering job.

Read and follow the instructions that come with the UltraCote - excellent recommendations about the stuff's behavior at various temperatures.

3. Keep SHARP blades around for cutting / trimming the covering - when a blade seems too dull to give a clean cut, put it in another box and use it for cutting balsa - it'll still work fine for that for quite awhile.
4. Be patient.

5. If you decide to do lots of covering, it's easier with two irons - a hot one and a cooler one -- and a trim iron ... and there are uses for a heat gun too, though it's kind of optional and isn't good for basic application since you can't control the heat appllied to the covering / surface.

Have a ball!

-Rick

cknaack

My Feedback: (1)

Rick,

Well said and good advise. I do my covering jobs the same exact way, only I have 2 regular irons, and 2 trim irons, 1 hot, 1 a little cooler.

BUflyer

I have always used Monocote. I don't have any fancy equipment, just a regular iron, Walmart $5.00, and a hobby knife. I think my covering jobs look pretty good and i have only done a few. I get compliments all the time. I need to go try some other stuff though from what i am reading. Apparently everything else is easier. I wonder what i could do with easier to apply stuff.

Crayon

For what it's worth...

Nitrate and Butyrate dope is technically not a lacquer or a paint. They have no relationship to acrylics. There are nitro cellulose based lacquers, but they have no place in airplane finishing.

Nitrate and Butyrate dopes are nitro cellulose and butyl acetate desolved in toluene and keytones, acetone and/or MEK, based solvents. They are called dope because they dope or impregnate the fabric covering with a nitro cellulose or a butyl acetate film.

Nitro methane based fuels will desolve any type of nitrated finish. Hence the need to apply butyrate on top of it.

Dope is still very much used on real, fabric covered, planes. Nitrate dope is used to adhere, shrink, and prime the fabric. Butyrate dope is used for finishing. Butyrate dope comes in many different pigmented or dyed colors.

If you're putting enough dope on it to make it shine like monocoat, then thats way too much dope. Dope over fabric should still look like fabric.

A scale Piper Cub should look like it's covered in fabric. A real Cub probably will be covered in Ceconite, a polyester based fabric. Choose something similar such as Sig Koverall. For dope, I'd use Randolph Dope since they have factory correct colors for Pipers.

Polyurethane, acrylic, and vinyl finishes are starting to make inroads in aviation due to their durability.

Fidsatom

To rickwallace45 and cknaack, Thanks for the advice and insight.

To Crayon. OK, now I understand. The word " dope " is used so ubiquitously that it had no meaning for me. I don't think I'll be in a hurry to use any finish that has some of the solvents your mentioned, especially methyl ethyl ketone, ( MEK ) or other keytones. That stuff is just too toxic for me to feel comfortable with. I regiously use a really good mask with dual organic filters stacked on top of particulant filters and a good air evac booth. Nonetheless, with some of the newer automotive type finishes even exposed bare skin is not a good idea.

Thanks for your lucid explanation.

Tom

Crayon

To expound a little about ketones. MEK seems to be getting a bad rap compared to Acetone. They're both nasty. In some ways MEK is a bit safer than acetone, but worse in others.

They're both solvents and that makes them carriers and that mean they can bring other things in the toxic concoction into your body. MEK is a much larger molecule than Acetone and has a harder time crossing cellular barriers. That means that MEK is less likely to enter your blood stream via skin than Acetone and less likely to transport other ingredents into you.

Both MEK and Acetone are hard on your liver, MEK being worse.

Modellers have been getting dope on their skin for years. The recommended attachment method is to rub dope into the fabric area to be attached with your finger.

I think I'll be wearing MEK proof gloves from now on. Also, I won't be cleaning CA off my skin with acetone. You don't want acrylates in your blood stream.

rajul

My Feedback: (58)

Each type of covering has its own technique for applying. Monokote or ultracote will work fine although I prefer to work with monokote

Lynn19531

Clear Dope? Can you give me a brand name?