hotlanding

Hi all,

After reading your many comments regarding first kits in the Kit Building Forum, I have narrowed my selection down to one of the following three kits.

1. Great Planes Rapture .40
2. Sig Four-Star .40
3. Carl Goldberg Tiger 2.

When discussing a “first kit” with my LHS owner, his comment was “Whenever possible stat away from Die Crunch kits. A Laser cut kit is much easier to build and turns out better in the end.”

For those of you that have experienced building both types of kits, has this been your experience?

The Great Planes, Sig, and Carl Goldberg Web Site all fail to mention if their kits are laser or die cut. From comments in the Kit Building Forum, it appears that the Great Planes and Carl Goldberg kits are now laser cut. I can find no information about the Four-Star kit being laser cut or die cut. Can anyone help me out here?

Previous modeling experience is four ARF’s built to date along with several scratch built boats and two boat kits (both laser cut). Flying experience is with a Thunder Tiger 40 trainer, the Great Planes Easy Sport 40, Hanger 9 Ultra Stick 60 (crashed) and just starting with a Seagull PC-9 (first low-wing-and first inverted engine).

Comments on your experience will be greatly appreciated,

Thanks to all of you for a great forum,

Rick

voyager_663rd

Let me say, I have no preference over these planes. Having said that, here's a site that might be of some interest to you

Sig 4Star opinion and it is laser cut also.

JPMacG

My Feedback: (2)

I bulit the Tiger as a second plane. It is die cut but it went together very easily. Laser cut kits do fit together more precisely and "self align". Die cut parts fit together more loosely. No big deal really. You might spend an extra 15 minutes total (for the whole kit) aligning the die cut parts before you glue.

carrellh

I am almost finished with a Great Planes PT-60. It is a die cut kit. I did not find any "crunched" wood. The cuts were very crisp. A handful of the parts had to be cut through in a few places with an exacto knife, but most just 'fell out' of the sheets for me.

This is my first kit. I started it around May 15 and got it finished except for balancing and setting control throws around January 1. I did not work on it every day; sometimes did not touch it for weeks.

I am very pleased with GPs die cutting.

JWN

My Feedback: (42)

Laser cut is nothing special other than the parts will be consistent two years from now compared to what they are now. The statement that a laser cut kit will self align and the parts will fit perfectly is erroneous. A laser cut kit is only as good as the person who setup the templates and the program. If the person did a poor job verifying the parts during setup, they will not fit properly when you build the kit. As for self aligning, this has to be built into the design of the parts. If there are no tabs or slots in the parts, then there is no way they will align to the other parts. BTE kits are call cut by hand, neither laser nor die cut, yet they have a reputation for being some of the finest kits available.

The downside to die cutting has aways been the dies and how sharp they are kept. If the manufacturer fails to sharpen the dies regularly, the end result is "die crunch" instead of cut. I've been many Japanese kits which were die cut and the parts from those kits were just as cleanly cut and the fit just as perfect as any laser cut. But if the dies are not maintained, then the cut will suffer over time. This is the primary reason I like to inspect kits before I buy them if at all possible. If I see a lot of crunched parts, I keep looking until I can locate a good example of the kit.

I suggest you find a model which has a good following in the R/C community and also appeals to you. If you do this, you will end up with a model you are sure to enjoy both building and flying. The fact that a large number of people have already built and flown the model will be a benefit to you should you run into a problem or a question along the way.

just my .02,
John

Mike in DC

I would go for the plane you want first. Then, if everything else is equal, choose the laser cut kit. If the manufacturer doesn't say anything about the cutting, then it's probably die cut, since folks that use lasers or other methods tend to brag about them.

That said, a well-done laser cut kit is a true joy to work with. If it's done right, the pieces will slide together with just enough tension to keep them together. Die cut pieces will sometimes be loose, sometimes tight.

One thing to keep in mind: All the kits I've built have quite a lot of parts cut by knife or razor saw: by you!. Some of the profile kits have little more than the wing ribs precut. So, what I'm saying is it doesn't make that big a difference.

w0mbat

My Feedback: (1)

Just because a kit is advertised as "laser-cut" does not necessarily mean that it is better than a die-cut kit. The key to laser-cut kits is in the design. Laser-cutting allows designers to engrave balsa to different depths and make complex cuts that could never be made with a die or even by hand. Most laser-cut kits available today don't even take advantage of this capability. They simply use a laser instead of a die to "stamp" out ribs and formers for kits that were designed to be die cut. It saves some sanding time, and the parts fit is a little better but doesn't make the kit that much easier to assemble. Unless the kit was designed to be specifically cut with a laser, I would say there is really no big advantage.

Jim Schwagle

My Feedback: (1)

The Rapture is die cut.

spokman

My Feedback: (2)

I'm done framing up an LT40. It's my third plane I've built. It has both laser and diecut parts. I can tell you straight up I prefer the laser cut parts in a heart beat. About a third of the die cut parts had to have a lot of knife assistance to get out and were still mildly damaged(not bad though). But I wouldn't let that be the deciding factor as you might really like one plane but it might not be laser cut. All things equal I want a a laser cut kit next time and I want rolled plans. No more folded for me. I'm planning on a Sig SE for my next kit and for the one after that I'm not worrying about laser cutting as enough planes don't have it to really make it a factor for me.

JWN

My Feedback: (42)

Blame Sig for this, not die cutting. If you ever pick up a Japanese kit that has been die cut, you will find that they cut all the way through even AC plywood with their dies. You will find that everything also fits perfectly, just like the laser cut parts in your LT40. The laser makes this kind of quality easier to obtain, but sharp dies that are maintained can produce the exact same results. It's too bad I have yet to find an American kit company who uses dies who is as consistent as the Japanese. I would much rather buy American.

John

wrongwaywayne

What about the charred edges of the laser kit? Doesn't this have to be remoaved before glueing. I've heard of failures where the chared edges were not removed.

Does anyone have experience with this?

JWN

My Feedback: (42)

I didn't sand the charred edges off of either my Sig S.E. or my Pilot DJ-1. The parts in both of those models are just as stuck together as if the charred edges did not exist. I personally believe the non laser cutters are making a big deal out of something that isn't a big deal. I did a couple of tests with thin, medium and thick CA on scraps from the laser cut pieces. In every test, the wood broke outside the charred (joint) area. That was enough to convince me that you don't have to sand them. Now, this could be different if the manuf used too much power and didn't move the laser fast enough resulting in a thick charred surface. But in the case of Sig and Pilot, this has not been the case.

John

wrongwaywayne

John, you mentioned the Japanese being better. I dont mean to be dumb but I dont think I know of any Japanese kits other than Royal?? and I thought they burnt to the ground. I didnt know it was possible to die cut with out some damage/crushing of the balsa.

JWN

My Feedback: (42)

Royal kits were made by Marutaka and are still available through Hobby Barn. That factory never burned as far as I'm aware. Pilot OTOH did in fact burn and all designs and tooling which were in that building were lost in the fire. Thankfully, they have rebuilt and are offering new kits. This is also why the EZ line of ARF's disapeared for a few years. OK owns Pilot and EZ so both were affected by the fire. Other Japanese kits I can think of off the top of my head are Kyosho, Tettra, MK, IM, Yoshioka, Hirobo and Musashino. Most are available only from overseas mail order from shops such as http://www.singahobby.com

I've built kits from most of these companies and not a single one ever had a single piece of die-crushed wood. All have been very nicely cut to the point that they fall out of the sheet if you don't handle them carefully.

John

Muffinman

Hotlanding. I happen to have all three of these kits. The 4Star-40 is crisply lasered, no problems at all. The Rapture, which I just bought, is die-cut but, since it is a fairly new kit, all of the die-cutting is very good, no crunching at all. I haven't looked at the Tiger II lately, don't recall. but I was working on both a Falcon III and Eagle II from Goldberg. I stopped because the laser cut parts on the Falcon III did not match the plans at all. So I am putting off working on them until I decude what to do with the funny parts. If I were to choose again, I would do either the 4-Star or the Rapture depending on how much the difference in the cost of the kits make to you.

Navy18

My Feedback: (4)

For what it is worth, I have built the Sig4star in 40 and 60 sizes.... the 60 is a better flier by a long shot; don't rule that out if you haven't already bought a 40 size engine. That 60 is lazer cut and one nice flying plane. Good luck and enjoy.

FHHuber

First kit.. Lazer cut. you have far fewer headaches building and it will go MUCH faster.

I'd highly recommend the four-Star 40. a simple kit to build with excellent instructions. The standing joke is... open box, pour in glue, shake well.. pour out completed aircraft. I built one in my hands, no building board, and it was perfectly straight. (but I have over 30 years of building experience...)

You also can't find a plane that is more versatile and enjoyable to fly than the Four Star. It will do well as a trainer. It will do well for Fun-Flys. It will do well for learning precision aerobatics. Stick your .40 to .46 out of your trainer on it and put on a 11X4 to 12.25X3.75 prop. (a 10X6 or 10X7 won't let you slow down enough for landing with the engine running)

***

The chared edges... brush them off a little. Thick pieces may have enough chared deposits on them to interfere with a glue joint, but the excess char will wipe off with a rag. You can LIGHTLY sand if you want.

You may want to sand the char off any place that covering will adhere to. The char can show through the covering. (I had brown rib stripes on my 4*40's white covering. Looked like I had meant to do it though.)