EdwardB

My Feedback: (6)

Hello Vicar. The only picture I have of the LG during construction is in post #10 of this thread. The whole thing is made up of pretty normal materials -- music wire, brass and aluminum tubes, etc. You can see this in the picture. Flair sells the LG kit as an accessory. It's at:

http://www.flairmodels.co.uk/Accesso...raftframes.htm

Click on "Sprung UC legs" in the LH frame. There are places in the U.S. that sell Flair kits, but I don't know about accessories. I think you can order directly from their website, if you're interested.

Kevin R

Flair supply the Tiger Moth undercarriage as a seperate item, to install on your own model.

Kevin R

I have been flying the Flair Tiger Moth for around two years now' and I am rather surprised at all the mail generated by this very straighforward and simple kit. There is nothing difficult in the build, I built mine in just 8 weeks and it flies perfectly on an OS 120 fourstroke engine.
As reported by other builders, it is true that it requires a bit of lead "up front" and there seems no way of reducing this except for building the tail as light as possible.
However, be assured that the OS120 is perfectly adequate to fly the model, and any concerns about fitting the engine inverted are groundless (good adjective?!) I have had absolutely no problems with flying these engines inverted.
One small tip: the method of bolting the wings on to the fuselage makes for fitting a plug-and socket connexion for the ailerons a perfect solution to connecting them up to the Rx. thus simplifying rigging at the field. The plug/socket connexion can be fitted right next to the wing bolts, ensuring a good tight fit - no more fiddling with plugs and sockets, just attach the wings and fly!
One further small improvement to the "lead-in-the-nose" problem can be made by fitting the scale polished aluminium spinner nuts I manufacture, these are slightly heavier than the usual ordinary (non-scale!) nuts,and are fitted at the extreme forward position possible!

Cybertom

I think that this subject has received attention because there are many good members of RCUniverse who are willing to share their experience which often saves others time reinventing the wheel. After rereading the entire thread, it just looks like good information sharing to me.

This is one of the few places where you can share the fruits of your labor with others who really appreciate and understand the level of the accomplishment. For example, I cannot wait to see a link to a video clip of Edwards Tiger Moth flying. I just might make a road trip up to Michigan and video tape it myself! The only issue is that I'm an Ohio State fan. As long as I don't have to get to close to Ann Arbor I should be OK!

phoon

Cybertom,

Back earlier in this thread, you said that the instructions for the Flair Moth weren't as clearly written and set up as those for the Flair Stearman. Could you elaborate a bit on this? Were the instructions for the Flair Stearman broken down into more discrete steps with better pictures and explanations than those written for the Moth?

EdwardB and Cybertom,

Have built a Super Sportster, Astro Hog plus others, and have repaired/rebuilt numerous kits my son built and owned (Goldberg Texan, Morris Hobbies Bipe, Ag Wagon, Kadet, Goldberg Glider, Trainer 60, quarter scale Sig Cub, etc. since 1983). I'm not sure I fall into the "experienced, skilled" category EdwardB suggested was necessary to tackle a Flair Moth. Yet, I might be at the level required to succeed with a Flair Stearman.

Did look at the Flair instructions for the Moth a couple of years back, but it seemed the instructions were hard to follow ( e.g.,"Scarf the edge tangent to the circle along the infill..."). Maybe an Encarta Dictionary and some work at comprehension would get me over the rough spots....

Anyway, would be very interested in EdwardB's and Cybertom's comments regarding just how difficult you found it to follow the instructions for both the Flair Moth and Flair Stearman, and any comparisons between the two you can make.

Would like to talk in more detail. Here's my phone. If you call me, will immediately call you back on my nickel: 303-258-3196

Thanks in advance,

Peter

EdwardB

My Feedback: (6)

Hello Peter. I didn't find the Flair Tiger Moth instructions particularly hard to follow. But, they are definitely NOT of the Great Planes variety (and other newer generation kits) that have step-by-step "insert tab A into slot B" with a picture for each. There are a number of sheets that you follow in order, working your way through the diagrams and instructions on each sheet, and it works out OK. I'm also kind of guilty of not always building in the order described. I tend to have lots of subassemblies going at once. Plus I usually try to build so that matching surfaces can be checked and fitted as you go. I always have the fuse built before mounting the root ribs on the wings, for example, so that the all the angles match perfectly. That sort of thing. But that's just me...

Judging by the kits you've built, nothing is going to be new in the Tiger Moth. Read back through all the posts in this thread. Key points: Lots of parts (I counted over 900, including most of the hardware bits), basic metal fabrication, and a certain amount of detail with the rigging and getting all the incidences lined up. You will also need a metric ruler, and know port from starboard (!). I can't comment or compare to the Stearman. I haven't seen the kit.

I read a post the other day from a guy that was complaining about the amount of work he had to do on a particular ARF because the control horns weren't pre-mounted. Suffice to say he would not be a candidate for the Flair Tiger Moth. Our hobby is definitely changing, but that's a different discussion.

Cybertom

Don't even think you can't do this. You absolutely can.

Let me say that if I gave anyone the impression that the Flair Tiger Moth kit is not a top notch kit I have done you a great disservice. It is an excellent kit! But if I had to give the nod to one kit or the other it's going to be the Stearman kit. If you look at Flair's website they also say that the Stearman kit is their finest kit.

Yes the Stearman manual is real manual with a binder and lots of photos. The Tiger Moth manual is composed of 11-1/2 x 16-1/2 sheets of paper in a stack.

Let's just say that after I get through building the Flair Tiger Moth kit I will be hurting because I doubt if I can find another kit that even come close to the quality of either of these Flair kits.

Phlip

When you shrink a scale subject by a linear factor such as 4, or 1/4 scale, I think you get close to target weights and power by shrinking them by a factor of 4 cubed, or 1/64.

For example, I'm figuring your empty weight of 862.5 pounds means that the empty weight of the full scale plane is 3450 lb. If you divide by 64 (4 each of lenght, width and height) you get 54 lb., not bad for an 8 ft. biplane, I think. By the same calculation, you'd need 13 HP. I don't know how that figures for a large scale engine. Probably do-able.

Good luck,

Phil

Cybertom

Not a bad conversion but I'm hoping to stay around 32lbs. I don't want the wing loading to be really high. I'm already looking at other airfoils than the scale RAF 28 because I want to get more lift at low speeds. Ideally I will be able calculate just when she will lift off, maximum speed, and all that good stuff in a very scale maner.

Full Scale
Wing Loading=222 oz/sq ft
Maximum Speed=253 mph
Crusing Speed (14,500 ft)=225 mph
Takeoff run=125 yrd
Landing run=250 yrd
Stall speed=54 mph

1/4th Scale
Wing Loading=55.5 oz/sq ft
Maximum Speed=63.25 mph
Crusing Speed (50ft)=56.25 mph
Takeoff run=93.75 ft
Landing run=187 ft
Stall speed=13.5 mph

HarryJ

My Feedback: (98)

Tom,
The Genesis YMF-5 Waco is probably the best kit I've seen or built. Lots of pieces and they all fit together like a jigsaw puzzle. I found that by sorting all parts first and reading the manual from front to back (112 pages) before beginning sure helps. The manual is very straight forward with lots of photos & drawings.

Harry

Cybertom

You have the kit? Are you Done? Lets see pictures or video.

HarryJ

My Feedback: (98)

Tom,
I am just getting started. I have the kit and have all parts seperated and in zip-lock bags. As soon as I get a few parts together I'll start posting photos.

Harry

Dai Phan

My Feedback: (2)

Hello,

I know that this is not a built up kit but I want to show you what I have done with an ARF as we are in Tiger Moth mode... I recover the whole bird in UC and go to town on painting. In fact painting almost required the same amount of time to build this from a kit. I hope you like it... Dai

Cybertom

You have GOT to send these pictures to Great Planes. They will put this on their website for sure!

You might try to make some scale looking landing gear as I have for my Tiger Moth. You can see the difference in the way they look side by side.


Great Planes Tiger Moths at the C.M.A.C Field this past Sunday:

Dai Phan

My Feedback: (2)

Cybertom,

Thank you for allowing to share my ARF pictures on your thread. I will no doubt send the pictures to GP after I am done detailing it. Last nite, I applied the serial numbers on the tail. Tonight I will do the same on the wing. How did you enhance your gear? Did you solder in the X bracing to the main? I am thinking about adding a V shape to the main then strap rubberbands to the both ends to make gear functional. Dai Phan

Cybertom

I made all new gear that has the correct lean forward and cross members. If you fly the GP Tiger Moth with the landing gear in the current position you will find out that she noses over a whole lot. The slightest amount of resistance rolling forward and over she goes. A few degree forward angle makes it closer to scale and stops the airplane from tipping over because the wheels will be about 1 inch forward of their current position. The way Great Planes made them come straight down at 90 degrees from the fuselage is totally wrong.

HarryJ

My Feedback: (98)

Tom,
I have a Tiger Moth from Arizona Model Aircrafters. The landing gear is close to scale (according to AMA). If I knew how to post pictures I would send some close ups of it. You can see the plane on their website at; http://arizonamodels.com/eBay/tigermothqtrscalearf.htm.

Harry

HarryJ

My Feedback: (98)

Perhaps this link will work better. http://arizonamodels.com/ Also check out their engine models.

Cybertom

A little forward now straight down and not nearly as wide. Also you can see the cross members. Don't forget Flairs Tiger Moth of which this thread is the subject is extremely scale:

[link=http://www.flairmodels.co.uk/Aircraft/Classic_scale/Classicscaleframes.htm]Flair Tiger Moth[/link]

Here are some good full scale shots:

HarryJ

My Feedback: (98)

A few pics of the Arizona Model Aircrafters Tiger Moth ARF.

Harry

Square Nozzle

My Feedback: (1)

Cybertom and Ed,
My Flair 'Tiggie' should be in transit from Third Coast as I construct this post. I get so excited when I think about it that I have to be careful not to wet myself. Well anyway, I have been researching power for the plane and I had pretty much decided I was going with a Laser 150. I 'E' Mailed Laser inquiring about the best method to pay for the 150 and they told me they now have a 180 single. That brings about an interesting dilema. The 180 is about 3/4# heavier than the 150 and slightly larger in height and width. Reading your comments about your planes, I note that you need nose weight to balance. Using a 180 will help solve the balance issue but will the larger size prevent installation without having to cut into the scale cowl? Here are the differences:

Weight - 150, 835 grams (1.84#); 180, 1200 grams (2.64#)
Height, valve cover to crankshaft - 101mm vs 114mm
Width at mount rails - 45mm vs 57.15mm

My thoughts were that the 180 will turn an 18 - 8 prop and give me more power in the event I need it, due to some dumb thumb maneuver I make and it will cruise at a lower RPM giving me a nicer scale sound. But will it fit in the cowl.
That's where you guys go in. Will the 180 fit in the cowl?

I've settled on the Mount Cook Flightseeing color scheme. Reg # ZK-BRC

www.kiwiaircraftimages.com. Click on an airplane image, click the "Aircraft" button, search the list for "DH82A".

Thank for your help!

EdwardB

My Feedback: (6)

Hello John. I looked at my Flair Tiger Moth, with the Laser 150, and my guess is that the 180 would fit, with one possible concern. The weight is certainly not a problem. I added more than that difference to mine in lead. The height difference won't be a problem. There is about 1-3/4 inches of clearance between the top of the Laser 150 and the inside of the bottom cowl. The width also shouldn't be a problem. I had to cut about 1/8 inch from inside each of the provided hardwood beams to fit the 1.50. You will just have to cut more, and there will be plenty left. My only caution is toward the back of the engine. There is only about 1/4 inch of clearance between the firewall and the muffler (on one side) and the carb venturi (on the other side). I don't think they should be any closer. It would be major surgery to move the firewall back, and I wouldn't consider it. If the 180 is longer, then the difference would have to be to the front. The cowl could be positioned further forward pretty easily. A small amount shouldn't be noticeable. You might have to move the top cowl mounting block forward, but that would be simple.

My thoughts about the 1.50 (for what it's worth...). This is considered the most popular engine for this particular model, and many have been built and flown successfully. I don't know if you've been around a Laser when running, but even at full throttle the 1.50 has a pretty quiet, mild sound. It's not a "screamer" at all. I test flew mine in a quarter scale Super Cub quite a lot, and it has a very nice sound. Although the Cub is a few pounds lighter than the Moth, and not as much drag, the 1.50 pulled the Cub easily at half throttle or less, with a very nice sound. If you can get the 1.80 to fit without too many changes, it's probably OK. But I would suggest the 1.50 is pretty good too.

I'm hoping to maiden mine this weekend. It's ready to go, and the weather (and my schedule!) looks promising for Saturday morning. I guess I'll know more then.

Square Nozzle

My Feedback: (1)

[quote]ORIGINAL: EdwardB


My thoughts about the 1.50 (for what it's worth...).

Ed, your thoughts are very important to me. You have the airplane and I don't, yet. The 180, along with being larger and heavier is also about $50 more expensive. Making accomodations for the 180 doesn't bother me but if the 150 is a more than adequate powerplant for the Tiggie then why go the extra expense? I have lots of lead in my shop. My wife might tell you that I also have lots in my pants. Your points are well taken and I value your input. Thanks for your reply. A 150 it is!

EdwardB

My Feedback: (6)

Well, my Flair Tiggie with the Laser 1.50 had its first two flights yesterday morning. All was completely uneventful, which is exactly what I wanted! The weather couldn't have been better, and my fellow club members graciously let me have the field to myself for the first two flights. There's not much to say -- it flies like a big old trainer, and looks great in the air. I had a click here and there on the trim, but generally was pretty much right on. I used the CG and throws exactly per the instructions, and they couldn't have been better. I noticed a little bit of elevator trim change (very slight) depending on whether going upwind or downwind, but I think that's to be expected with a lightly loaded undercambered airfoil. On the first flight, the takeoff was completely normal, and after a few times around the field I slowed down to about half throttle, and then about quarter throttle to see how it handled at low speed. All good. I shot my first landing at about 6-7 minutes, and although one bounce, the landing was fine. The second flight was even more uneventful. I flew it relatively slowly most of the flight, doing figure eights around the field. The landing flaired nicely, and the functional gear stuck it on the ground. Post flight inspections showed nothing moved, loose, whatever. Perfect!

Other observations: The CG appears to be fine. Since I was adding nose weight, I was near the back of the recommended range to save weight, and it's fine. The differential aileron setting was perfect. It flew nicely coordinated turns without using the rudder -- although adding rudder is nice too. I am going to add more elevator throw for taxiing. On our grass field, it wanted to nose over unless I held full up elevator while taxiing. If I let up even a little, it would start coming over. I'm going to dial more up into high rate, taxi at high rate, and fly at low rate. The power of the Laser 1.50 was fine. It's not going to be confused as having 3-D capability, but it takes off just fine, and cruises very comfortably at half or less throttle. At full throttle, it's rock solid, but a little fast for scale. I could try different props (it's using an APC 16-8, as recommended by Laser) and probably slow it down a little at higher throttle settings, but it's fine the way it is. The sound at lower throttle is nice. Note the engine only has 15-20 flights, so is still breaking in. Plus I'm running a little on the rich side. It's leaving a pretty good smoke trail still. In summary, I couldn't be more pleased. This winter I'll get some vinyl cut, and get the markings and probably some other scale details done. I'm going to fly it at a scale fly-in in August. The only thing I didn't do was video the first flights. I had my camera, but was busy and concentrating on other things. I'll try to get some video of it at the fly-in.

Square Nozzle

My Feedback: (1)

Ed, Thanks for the review. Sounds like the plane is a joy to fly and it will certainly be an eye catcher. Our club has a group we call the Dawn Patrol because they are WWI buffs and typically fly early in the day. Few people are around at that time. I can hardly wait to get mine out the on the flight line for the people that show up in the late morning and afternoon to see. My kit arrived this past Saturday. Man!, what a box of goodies. Everything is in there but the kitchen sink. I'll be going at this one slowly. I've got a Maritaka P6E kit that I am about 50% through and I should finish that off first, but I won't. I'll probably get into the Tiger Moth soon.