lsburruss

I have been out of flying for a long time and am now getting back into it. What happened to the Andrews kit line (Trainer-Master, Aero-Master, Sports-Master, etc.)? Does anybody have any of these kits waiting to be completed?

LaCerne

My Feedback: (16)

Loved those Lou Andrews kits! Great planes took over and quit making all of them. If you see one in an auction it will go for a very high price, particularly the Aeromaster. I used to have the Big H-Ray on floats, and loved it. Good luck, but lots of good kits are falling by the wayside due to the high demand for ARFS!

Larsen

Herb Brown

My Feedback: (1)

The original Andrews kits manufacturing ceased when the producing plant was destroyed in a fire. The Great Planes kits were less than exact copies of the original kits. Maybe that is why they also disappeared from the market.

Bax

My Feedback: (11)

When Great Planes acquired the Andrews line of R/C aircraft, only the actual engineering of the kit was changed for production reasons. The outlines and airfoils did not change one bit. The Great Planes versions flew exactly like the Andrews versions.

The kits went out of production because people stopped buying them. If there was enough demand, they'd still be in production. Even kits like the Great Planes Super Sportsers and Ultra Sports had to go out of production because of low demand. The people who are spending the money are spending it on ARFs, which is why there are so many of them.

ckangaroo70

My Feedback: (51)

What never gets considered is all the little things that a kit builder or scratch builder buys throughout the year for his or her building projects. I would have a very hard time being convinced that an "ARF only" Flyer spends as much as a Kit or Scratch Builder each year. I also believe that kit and scratch builders will tend to stay within the hobby longer then the typical ARF flyer. So companies like Great Planes while scooping up the quick dollars during this ARF craze, will eventually cut there own throats by FORCING long time builders either into an ARF or out of the hobby due to lack of supply for builders. The best thing that could happen is that another large company other than Great Planes would step in and recognize the long term benefits builders could offer there business, and scoop up the business of the builders while Great Planes/Hobbico/Tower has there backs turned to builders. The problem is that Great Planes holds the plans to alot of Great kits that would better serve the hobby in someone elses hands, but that would be just bad business to them. No matter what, IMO it is never good to have a big co. like Hobbico hold all the cards like they do. They are in the position at the front of the bread line to decide who gets a piece of bread and who don't, and that is not good!

mainegold

My Feedback: (1)

ckangeroo70, I believe you are right on the money! Great Planes/Hobbico/Tower (ALL ONE COMPANY) seems to be running their company by the<temporary> numbers and NOT seeing the whole picture. They know Hanger9/Horizon-Hobbies (SAME COMPANY) do not make kits. But they (GP) are leaving the KIT market open to some smaller and probably better kit companies. The ARF craze will slow down, (believe me it will-I've been in retailing for thirty years) then they will find they have lost their following.

Great Planes used to be my most favorite kits. Now I can't get the kits I want to build and fly so I'm looking for NOS kits and plans to scratch from.

MadJack

ckangaroo70

My Feedback: (51)

Mad Jack

I know some people will say that us kit builders need to just except the fact that good kits are going away, but in my mind Flying is half of my Hobby, and building is the other half. So when you see great kits like the Ultra Sports, or Super Sportsters getting axed from production, I don't need someone to tell me that I should just except it. Last year alone I spent about $1800.00 at Tower, and this does not include other Companies I did business with. Of that $1800.00, about $200.00 was spent for a couple low priced small ARFS, and the rest all went towards Covering, Balsa, Tools, Tools, and more building tools and supplies for my Kit projects. I am starting to think my measley $2000.00 don't mean much to Tower/Great Planes/Hobbico, but to a small kit manufacturer/supplier $2000.00 would be very welcomed!

LaCerne

My Feedback: (16)

The reason GP/Hobbico stopped selling kits is not demand, it's markup! Profit margins on ARFs are much greater, I don't understand why they don't keep a small supply of classic kits around, except that the bean counters won't let them. They are a toy store, not a hobby shop! Oh well, lots of excellant cottage industry kit makers out there, and good old stuff. I still have several kits to build, before I run out.

Larsen

dmcmike

My Feedback: (14)

Aero-master, Sport-master, yep.. now those were real kits! I agree that sooner of later, (hopefully sooner) the ARF's will become much less desirable. Hopefully, those 'modelers' who have built only arfs will discover that there is a complete hobby within a hobby when they discover building, and how rewarding it is. Hopefully, the 'Towers' of the world will once again start at least making small runs of kits in the near future. I'd think that with modern technology the way it is, and the ability to laser cut a kit as opposed to die-crunching one, someone with a nice stack of balsa, some programming, and a laser machine could almost produce kits on an as-needed basis.

Scott G

I think you are fooling yourselves about ARF's slowing down with respect to kit sales. I would say: As goes the ARF sales, so goes the RC hobby sales. ARFs are what the market is demanding and I suspect that if the demand for ARF's decreases, it's not because of a resurgence of demand for kits; it's because the whole hobby is in a slump. I just look at the field every weekend and see that 90-100% of the planes are ARFs, those of us that like to build ([link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_3322308/tm.htm]me included[/link]) are out numbered by folks who just like to fly and have no interest in building.

I don't subscribe to the half the hobby mentality either. Building is a hobby in itself and many folks just don't have the interest/skills/time to participate. It's great that they are no longer forced to slog through month(s) of building to gain access to the flying hobby. Unfortunately, this means some companies may discontinue some kits that we like to build.

I don't think I'll be holding my breath for Great Planes to go under or “cut their own throats�, if they did it won't be due to their sale of ARF's, it'll be because the whole hobby has gone into the crapper. That would be bad for all of us; the builders and the flyers.

My .02,
Scott.

ckangaroo70

My Feedback: (51)

[quote]ORIGINAL: Scott G
Tower Hobbies was in business before the ARF boom!

Some of the market is still demanding kits as well. From what I see it is your kit or scratch builders who will spend money within this hobby for a lifetime. We have not had one single builder join our club and quit after one season. ARF flyers seem to come and go. I'm not saying nothing bad about about the ARF flyers, its just that IMO the builders are consistant spenders throughout the years, compared to the quick and maybe a few big purchases made by (NOT ALL), but alot of ARF flyers. Some ARF flyers will remain in the hobby forever, but I think the "stick with it" percentages are higher with the builder.

Subscriptions are voluntary, and you are always free to subscribe to whatever you like.

Who said that they needed to quit selling ARF's? I could care less about them selling ARF's, and I hope they are making a ton of money off of there imported Planes. My gripe is " Please quit discontinuing good kits"! Even though we may be the minority, there are still plenty who would like to build, and there are also many smaller Companys that still count on the builders money that buys tools, covering, glues, wood,etc. etc. etc.

My .02 as well!
Ray

lsburruss

KITS vs ARFs: You can vote!

The Editor-in-Chief of Fly RC, Tom Atwood ([email protected]) has asked for your preferences. On page 10 of the December (2005) issue of "Fly RC" Tom writes in part: "Kits vs. ARFs - ... Despite the great popularity of ARFs today, kits remain a hobby mainstay for many. This raises the question whether you, our reader, would like to see more kit reviews in Fly RC in future issues. This is your magazine, so email us your opinions on "kits vs. ARFs" at [email protected]."

This opens a great opportunity to be heard, so let it be known how you feel and what you think. We have been given a soap-box to stand on and the audience to hear.

Scott G

Yes that is true, but the response does not address my assertion that ARF sales will not go down in respect to kit sales. Tower Hobbies was in business when the closest thing to an ARF were the crappy Lanier plastic and foam monstrosities (My first plane was a Lanier Slo-Comet). By your argument I could show that IBM should still be able to run a large business that sold typewriters simply because they used to. This is obviously false; the market changed and IBM changed to match. If they hadn't they wouldn't be around anymore...

Yes, this was poorly written by me. It should have read:

I don't think I'll be holding my breath for Great Planes to go under or “cut their own throats�, if they did it won't be due to the dicontinuation of kits; it'll be because the whole hobby has gone into the crapper. That would be bad for all of us; the builders and the flyers.

I guess I'm up to .04
Scott

kdheath

FWIW, these folks advertise short kits of the Trainermaster and A-Ray:
http://lazer-works.com/main.html

HighPlains

My Feedback: (1)

Bax,

Has GP ever considered selling the Andrews line? I have flown multiple Trainermasters over the past 30 years and consider it one of the best all around sport models ever. Wasn't the GP Sportster series really a repackaged (and simplified) Andrews derivative? I was thinking that Lou worked for GP briefly.

CrateCruncher

My Feedback: (1)

I am currently building a GP Super Aeromaster I bought on fleabay. I think it's better than the original Andrews kit because it includes bolt-on wings, cowl and pants and firewall provision for a 4-stroke yet retains all the basic design features that made the kit so popular in it's heyday. However, this kit is still a PITA to build and interplane struts are not included. When I totaled up all the supplies purchased to finish this plane I was amazed! $340 and still climbing and that doesn't count engine or radio equipment. Compare this to a GP 1/3 scale Pitts Special ARF for around $320 which includes polished aluminum spinner, wheels, fuel tank and 5 pounds of hardware and you quickly see the calculus for a permanent ARF trend. BTW, the Pitts wheelpants are painted in three colors then clearcoated and are beautiful! The Aeromaster is still resting patiently on it's hand-soldered landing gear and the pants are just non-descript half bubbles on a sheet of 1/8" plastic.

Those first ARF's were a sad joke. Huge fuselage seams and paper stickers only added to the insultingly high prices. But today ARF's are one of the few instances where the consumer has come out ahead of the producer/distributor in terms of VALUE and occasionally even quality. The real losers in the ARF onslaught are the independent hobby shops that survived on the markup of all those little bottles of glue and monokote for years. They are mostly gone now and the only folks left are volume sellers like the TOWER's, HobbyTown's, etc.

I also appreciate all those Sunday fliers out there who buy an armload of RC stuff and leave the hobby after 6 months. It means more throughput at the factories and lower prices for me. Greater "access" (meaning: a beginner with little in the way of mechanical skill or flying ability has a more reasonable chance at success now) also means the R/C hobby will continue in one form or another. Yet I still notice the average age at the club field continues to climb every year. Sure, I'll still build the interesting stuff like the Proctor's and Royal/Marutakas but frankly I have no urge to build another Sig Kadet or GP Sportster clone. To me, they all build up pretty much the same. I used to build because I had to, now I build because I want to.

One bizarre trend no one I've heard mention is the effect ARF's are having on the WORLD R/C community! All those planes being built in China and Thailand are sowing the seeds for a firm R/C market in those same countries! This, IMO, will help insure continuing innovation and fresh new products in the future.

I hope I haven't offended anyone, it's just one man's take on our hobby.

CrateCruncher

My Feedback: (1)

Capt. Bill

I built a Trainermaster about 20 yrs ago and loved it. I just managed to find one on Ebay and managed to win it tonight. Despite having trainer in the name it was a sweet flying airplane

lsburruss

Bill I saw that on eBay for the Trainer Master and the selling price has got me interested. I have two kits in my basement and I think it is the sweetest kit one can get. I'm glad you got it, too bad you didn't get one from me. But, then again I don't know if I would want to get rid of them. Will be building one shortly....

Stan

ma_mulcahy

I truly believe that ARFs have been a boon to the RC hobby in that they have brought in people who do not have the time to build. That influx has ensured that we have new technology like computer/spread spectrum radios as well as a significant choices in engines and hardware. Unfortunately, the builder segment of the market has shrunk to a smaller slice of the pie meaning that we just don't carry the economic clout we used to. The kit manufacturing that Great Planes has shut down is no longer a significant source of revenue. What is no longer a significant source of revenue for Great Planes could be a significant source of revenue for a smaller company. It makes me wonder of Great Planes would consider selling off the rights and tooling to manufacture their kits. Hmm, Bill Baxter, do you know if this has been considered? Who is the right contact to approach at Great Planes to see if this is even feasible?

Thoughts anyone?

Mike

Capt. Bill

I wondered if the $208.50 I paid was too high but I wasn't sure of the value and wanted the kit. To build and fly, not collect. The kit was being sold by Isoldit and while they shipped in a couple days, I had to call to pay and find out if it had been shipped. For some reason they are bad about replying. I have bought some Bridi kits from Sheldon on Ebay but figure what I paid was not much different than the retail price a few years ago. Another one came up from another seller just after that and it wound up going for $207.50 so I guess they worth that. Pic is my old Trainermaster built back in 1980, sweet flying airplane.