ATC4U

Hello everyone, I have returned to the hobby after a 3yr layoff due to military comitments. I am disturbed to say the least. Thought I would post my .02 cents worth for general comment.
FIrst, am I the only one who has noticed the Tower Hobbies catalog has shrunk? And the Adds in R/C modeller are Fewer, or carbon copies of one another?
Anyway, everything now seems to be going ARF. Now, I have seen the quality of these kits, and they have come a LONG WAY in quality, but what disturbs me most is this:
I realize the world is a busy place, dont get me wrong, and there are folks out there who just hate to build, or dont have time at the moment and want something to get in the air. Now that said:
If the current trend continues, who are we builders going to have left, Goldberg has been sold...kits just now making it back, Sig even has reduced its number of kits, and Great Planes has really cut their numbers down too. Just to name a few. It would seem that gone are the days of pride in building, and better yet, pride in seeing what you have built, fly for the first time. (Side note, the feeling of superglueing your fingers to balsa, and having to use sand paper to get the feeling back in your finger tips!) Take Pattern for instance...try finding a LA1, Phoenix 8, Jeykll etc. Its getting darn near impossible. I feel its a real shame, they were outstanding flyers. Now you have $800.00 Plus, ARF's out there that everyone competes with, using 1.40 plus nitro hogs that most of us couldnt afford to fuel. And to be competitive, most folks would have to take out a second mortgage! Let me pose this to the general populace also. If we lose all the kit manufactures out there producing such great kits, and we all revert to ARF's built in China and Taiwan, were are the next generation, like my son, going to come from. Where are they going to learn how to build, so that scratch building even becomes an option? After all, last time I checked, there werent any ARF's at the Scale Masters! I know my dad wasnt into R/C, so I grew up through the ranks, starting with a Goldberg Eagle 63, and working my paper route, and mowing lawns to earn money for that next kit I drooled over for months in the Tower catalog, waiting as my skills increased to even allow flight of that Pica Duelist, Or that Goldberg Super CHipmonk. I think we need to tell the manufactures out there to bring back more of the kits, and become less dependant on the ARF's. Otherwise Building model airplanes will become a lost art. After all, learning to fly on a ARF trainer, moving to an ARF low wing, is not going to teach someone to build that New Top Flight Sea Fury, or build from plans like Ziroli!.
Thanks for letting me express my feelings, and I welcome any Flames, or commentary you all might provede.

GrnBrt

My Feedback: (5)

I saw which way it was going some years back and here's what I have done. I started buying kits, trading and whatever was needed and now have around 35 kits sitting on the shelf waiting to be built, heck I just picked up 5 more in the 2 weeks. I don't think that kits will ever totally disappear but the selection will be a lot less, oh and BTW I have around 50 sets of plans so I set till I am 125!!!!!

MinnFlyer

My Feedback: (4)

You can call the MFG's till you're blue. To quote Ann Marie Cross, "The bottom line is... the bottom line." If you want them to make more kit, all we have to do is BUY more kits.

ATC4U

I know thats the way your MFG companies look at it. And its very unfortunate indeed. Thats the very reason i put this post out, under this forum. It was to get people knowing that this is happening, and they may not even recognise it. It is a real shame to loose such an important aspect to our hobby, and as a majority, we ought to let the MFG's hear our voice. I also buy kits every chance I get, and have started stocking up on no longer produced ones I always liked, or wanted. I also make templates and cover my plans in clear plastic so they will be preserved for future use for my boy's etc. I think its a real shame to let Sony Playstations take over our kids lives, and you cant get the same benifits out of it, as you can in building model planes. We as responsible adults love our hobby, and need to do what we have to, to preserve it for even more generations. Heck, I even collect R/C modeller magazine, and have several issues back to the fifties! Well before I was a twinkle in the old man's eyes. I think its really neat to look back and see just how far we have come, and then look at whats there today...and you start to see the trend I do, and I dont like it.

SigKavalier

I guess I think your first kit is like your first helicopter. A bad one can run you away from them forever, and a good one will have you permanently addicted. I think a lot of people are afraid of kits. they are either very enjoyable, and rewarding or a royal pain in the rear. Especially to someone who knows absolutely nothing about building. Why spend $80+building supplies to have something thats half crooked or for $150 get something I know is straight. Some people just can't build worth a flip. Ever seen two builds of the same kit fly the same? Hardly ever. 2 good builders will end up with 2 nice flying planes, but a bad builder ends up with a bad flying plane. Fact is a lot of people enjoy R/C, and simply have no interest in building. I personnaly enjoy building as much as flying them. Even when it's wrong it's my wrong, and there's a little pride, and respect that kits get that ARF's don't. That and it usually takes about 3 kits before you get the knack down. I had it easy though I got to watch, and help my father build kits. So now I get more confused on which way to mount a servo than I do sheeting a wing. Even though I still suck at covering with monocote although I'm getting better. Also another problem is a lot of kit prices are close to ARF prices. I mean why build a $100 kit if I can get the same ARF for $50 more? I can't build a kit for $50 thats for sure. Not all are like that, but quiet a few are. You have to be able to look at it both ways. Even still the first time you open a box full of wood it's intimidating. You look at the picture on the box, and then at the wood and go "un uh". Of course it's great when it all comes together into the picture on the box, but most people just don't get that far. Kit's end up sitting half build somewhere surrounded by ARF's.

Volfy

My Feedback: (23)

Unfortunately, buying up kits no longer produced doesn't do the manufacturers much good. It is purely a benefit for your own posterity.

Kit manufacturers are not non-profit organizations dedicated to the advancement and preservation of RC building skills. They are here to make money. Money talks and bull*** walks. So many kit-builders look down upon ARFers' supposedly crashing and buying one ARF after another. Well like it or not, that's the kind of buying power that TALKS. Nobody can blame the manufactuers for chasing after the buck. That's business. If you want their attention, BUILD FAST AND BUY FAST.

Then again, let's not paint the picture so grim for the kit market. Last I looked, Sig, arguably the best and most prodigious kit maker in the world, is still doing just fine and constantly introducing new and better kits. IMHO, I kinda wish they would let some of their old and not-so-brilliant kits they still produce die an honorable death. No car maker can survive by selling the same old clunkers year after year, however much sentimental value they might carry with some folks. RC airplane kits are no different.

WORNBOOTS

My Feedback: (33)

Me, I', just reading'

Great post's guy's, I like both sides of view

I build and have used arf to teach. Dan Z

JWN

My Feedback: (42)

No offense, but you're preaching to the choir. Do a search on Kits vs. ARFs or Demise of kits and you will find numerous threads hashing this out. In fact, I have witnessed several just in the past 6 months.

Kits will always be around, but don't expect the big companies to keep producing them. They are going to go back to the cottage industry, some will argued this is already taking place, where folks like you and I will box them up in our garages as a little side line business to try and offset some of our other hobby expenses. I personally am already looking at several small designs to produce out of balsa with some hot wired foam parts such as wings and turtle decks.

My advise to all kit builders: If you see something you think you would like to build some day, buy it now. That model won't be produced forever and if you pass it up now, you will more than likely pay a lot more for it later from someone trying to pass it off as a "collectible".

John

ATC4U

I thank You for the replies. I will clarify a issue though. I do buy kits produced today, but I also buy ones that are gone for good. I just think that we will eventually loose out all together though, and here is why: Arf's only need minimal hardware and supplies, like clevices, no Ca glue, off the shelf at the grocery store, or home depot epoxy, no push rods, no tires, no wheel collars....so you see where im going with this? No hobby Shops. More and more, Home Depot has shut down the mom and Pop hardware stores, Now Arfs, and such are going to really bite into our local hobby shops too. They dont make the money off the arf kits folks..they have to try and compete with Tower hobbies etc, and advertisements in RCM. They make their money off Fuel, CA glue, Monokote, etc where there is at least 50% mark up. So you see, LHS is going to really have to sell off those arfs to make up for it, and supply beats demand there.
Thanks again for the replies, just curious to how everyone else viewed the subject.
Bryan

Dsegal

As a great modeler, Joe Wagner once said. "Assembling an ARF is like buying a book of crossword puzzles with all of the hard words already filled in." I am a model BUILDER and proud of it, not a toy plane flier.

Dave Segal

JWN

My Feedback: (42)

The influx of ARF's has been going on for far longer than the 3 years you have been out of the hobby. I worked at a hobby shop 9 years ago and we sold more ARF's than kits. In fact, the kit wall was generally looked at by most customers, but rarely did anything move from it. And yes, our prices were very comparable to Tower and the like. The money for hobby shops has always been in hardware, fuel and accessories. Also, the markup on small items is not 50% in most cases. It's 100%. News flash, there's just as little mark up in kits as there is in ARF's. The LHS is not going to disappear. In fact, if you really look around, I think you will find that within 2-3 years of an LHS closing, another will take it's place. Home Depot will not start carrying glow plugs, props, fuel, covering and irons to put it on with. I also seriously doubt they are going to start carrying starters, prop wrenches, canopy glue, pushrod accessories and everything else modelers buy with exceeding regularity.

The best way to make sure your LHS stays around is to shop there first. If the item you want is comparably priced (be reasonable and accept the fact that you are going to pay a little more for the convenience of taking that item home with you instead of waiting for it to show up in the mail) then buy it from them. Even if they have to order it for you. That, and only that, will keep your LHS in business.

John

pinball-RCU

So what? There are tons of lost arts out there. What about playing a musical instrument? In the "old days" every house had at least one person who could play well. Now, why spend years to learn, when for almost nothing you can buy the best music the world has ever produced? What about milking a cow? What about making your own clothes, or cooking a good meal? Lost arts every one, and nobody is shedding a tear.

Where you shed tears, I see joy in the fact that we are so affluent that we can pay people to cook our food. We can pay people to build our airplane models. We can pay people to play music for us. This is a GOOD thing, not a bad one. We can now, all of us, live in ways Kings only dreamed of a couple of centuries ago.

Don't get me wrong. I feel your loss, and I respect it. Take time to mourn properly. But don't get stuck in the denial phase and think that you're going to turn back time.

My children don't work on cars, which disappointed me. How could I share my skills and pleasures with them? The truth is the world changes, and they make their own life with their own pleasures and skills.

ATC4U

Wow, flames in deed. Not a problemo. Im glad to see all replies, even ones I may not see eye to eye with. I have 2 ARF kits built, and they do serve their purpose. And believe me, I am not crying over spilled milk here, nor forever stuck in the 80's, well ok, music aside (read: classic rock) Anyway, I too feel that modern times and change can be good. For instance: Lazer cut kits Vs the old kits that were sheets of balsa with a trace of the outline imprinted on it.(.some of you may have built a Sig Kit like it) and you had to do all the cutting yourself. It was a joy to get die-crunching. I remeber having to assemble a Heath Kit radio for controlling the blasted tempermental things, now we have computer radios under $300 that do everything except cook ya breakfast. So yeah, change is a good thing sometimes. It can also be not so good. Like big companies buying up little companies, and then basically becoming a Monopoly...insert name of companies here. THe mere point i have tried to make to all of the fellow kit builders out there is that something we love, and wanna pass on to the next generation, whether or not they are are's, or strangers, is the pleasure in building something that is otherwise nothing. Ninetindo, Playstation, and yes the computer we are all using..will never come close to mimicking that. As a lost art, well more a metaphore than anything else. Like loosing the corner barber shop, Local hobby shops are a great place to hang out, catch up on the greatest wiz bang spitfire 400 that comes out. Talking with the old guy who can fly the pants of anything he dares put a radio in, Bartering with the owner over that old Hot Canary kit in the corner. That is what is going the way of the Dinosaurs. Now is that a good thing? I dont see how it can be, and to think otherwise is pretty self centered and egotisticle if ya ask me.
Being the owner of a Hobby shop isnt a money issue, most stuggle to make ends meet, instead its a labor of love,of what one does for a living. I wish everyone could say they love what they do, most cannot. ARF's do have there place, but last I checked, this hobby is about building and flying Model Airplanes. Sorry, but there isnt an ARF made that can hold a candle to a well built, and detailed kit, or scratch built aircraft. Like I said at the begining, this is just my .02 cents worth. Not something to enrage the global economy.

POJack

Hello,
I'm new to this hobby (sport) and haven't even flown a plane yet, but I can comment on our society and the way it's going. I personally enjoy building and have built, so far, one kit and am in the process of another. Our society seems to be a "want it yesterday" society. Think about it. Most things in our society are instantly gratified such as what all of you people including myself are doing right now. Your on the computer. The computer is something of instant gratification. No longer are the days when you "have" to wait for a catalog or a letter in the mail or go to the store to buy something. You can simply go on the computer to look things up and get info in an instant. No longer do you have to wait for the bank to open after business hours to conduct bank business. All you have to do is go to the trusty ATM and be instantly gratified 24 hours a day 7 days a week. These are just a few examples of how our society is an instantly gratified one and there are many more examples of this. My point being, people want to be instantly gratified and ARF's are just a reflection of the way our society is.

Volfy

My Feedback: (23)

No need to apologize. You just haven't had the pleasure of seen some of the better ones available today. No doubt there are the 1% of RCers who are master builder that can turn a pile of balsa and 2000hrs into a work of art. For the 99% rest of us, a few hundred buck and 12hrs on an ARF is a lot more efficient use of our resources.

I keep hearing all this talk about kit built plane being so much nicer than ARFs, but the reality is that most of the kit-built planes I see at the fields are sorrier than ARFs. Either all the fields I visited are full of all-thumbs builders, or too many kit-builders have too high of an opinion of their end-products.

The doomsayers have been predicting the demise of kit-building, along with LHSs, ever since ARFs appeared on the market. Fact is, kits are still sold in good numbers. LHSs are doing fine selling ARFs and other stuff, or at least no worse than they were in the past.

As for the art of kit-building, c'mon it ain't that hard a skill to learn. The main ingredient of a well-built plane are TIME and PATIENCE, not craftsmanship. Plus, with internet and information technology so widely available today, an RC newbie is far better off today than any days of yore. Instead of lamenting the old, try to embrace the new.

There has never been a more wonderful time to be in RC than now. And it will only get better.

ilikeplanes

The only thing I lament is the loss of many of the kits some of us used to love. However, the current business model has really allowed the LHS to flourish not flounder. Still, I don't seem to get much pleasure from the ARF's (even though I realize they provide the best value for a flying model). I guess maybe I'm a builder after all.

Now what was that Ziroli link?

stuk_at_work

My Feedback: (111)

Wanting to get my son the "next plane up" from his Hobbico Avistar Trainer (still a great plane, by the way), I decided on the Great Planes Easy Sport (40 sized Shoulder wing) after seeing one fly at our club. It is available as an ARF and a kit. I believe at the time the kit was going for $80 and the ARF could be had for $124, a $44 dollar difference.

Considering that I had to add my own (2) rolls of covering (@$12/roll) and my own adhesives, the difference came to less than $20 and a whole lot more hours! I ultimately decided that I couldn't live with another "sticky paper" plane and bought the kit .. which is now almost finished and looks much better than the ARF (IMO). But how can you blame people for buying ARFs when the cost diiference between a kit and and ARF is so small, and the time difference to getting airbourne is so great? Are the kit prices artificially high to push more people into the ARFs, or is this another one of those supply and demand things?

GrnBrt

My Feedback: (5)

May I toot my own horn here???? Look at page #95 of the latest R/CReport and you will see the one that I did with some mods (?) It's a great flying plane but have yet to fly mine. I built one for a friend and from flying his I came to the mods that I did on mine. Enjoy yours as it's a fun one!!
(Don't know why the one aileron didn't come out yellow in the picture, but it did?)

WORNBOOTS

My Feedback: (33)

Good point 'sticky paper'

Hobbico and others see the benefits of teaming with Monokote (top Flite) and now provide a choice. Why?

My Mom had a health food store, early in the 70's The big food chains got in on the band wagon and Her business sufferd greatly

Don't think Home Depot or Lowes wont jump in, SPADS as example. It takes a cost anylist to decide where the buck comes from, And his tools are what sells and why. home dep. sells telephones not just the wire and jack's, also they sell trailers and candy.

I build its my intoxicant, ARF's will be SFF (from STORE to FEILD and FLY)
Dan Z

pinball-RCU

I probably haven't been in the hobby long enough. The 2003 catalog is 288 pages (course that includes some cars and boats). Was it a lot bigger before?

JimTrainor

Some one needs to design an affordable laser cutting machine that can sell for a few hunder bucks. Or - more realistic - a CNC machine for a Dremel. That could probably be produced for a few hundred (you supply the computer) Then you just "print" what ever kit you want. Crash the plane... no problem, just cut new parts.

The Joy of Build

David Cutler

I started the hobby many years ago when ARF was the sound a dog makes, and kits were less prominent than buying a plan and cutting out the ribs etc yourself.

I came back to the hobby only last year and was amazed at the changes that had happened, and all the new names that had arrived, and the old ones that had died, BUT, I have to say, it's better than it was.

Technology like laser cutting has vastly improved the hobby. If you don't believe me, try cutting 40 identical ribs and fitting them individually to spars and self-shaped leading and trailing edges, sticking it all together with PVA and see if you can avoid a little frustration!

'Constructing' ARFs is an entirely different pleasure from scratch building, and, even though they might have replaced one aspect of building, they could not replace all the aspects, and therefore probably won't.

Being afraid about what changes might do to the 'old way's is a bit like people being afraid that computers might replace them and they lose their jobs. How many systems engineers were around in the 50s and 60s when the fear of computers was at its height? All that happened was people had different jobs, and, if truth be told, better ones

Jets, 4 stroke engines, models capable of hovering and inverted snaps, reliable radios, flying fields with actual hard runways; the list seems endless, have all come in to improve a hobby that, frankly, wasn't as exciting as it is now. Who knows what else is coming soon? If we lose the pleasures of building, it will only be because we have found better things that give us more pleasure.

David C.

JWN

My Feedback: (42)

What do the current laser cutting machine cost? Who makes them? Anyone know of a web site which catalogs such a machine?

John

pinball-RCU

I sincerely apologize. I did not mean to flame you. Not all progress is good, and I too sometimes yearn for other times. But what gets me hot (and I admit it wasn't in your post), is the frequently expressed belief that 1) things are getting worse, and 2) it's because of a moral failure of "young folks". My point is only that we should have respect for people to make decisions that make sense to them, and not assume it's a moral failing when they make decisions different than we do. But I admit I got a little excited.

JimTrainor

JWN, I think laser cutters are pretty expensive. A web search will reveal several of the Dremel CNC variety... albeit homebrew type stuff.

[levity follows]

But as we speak there is probably a 14 year old out there who balks, in this day and age, at the inaccuracy of hand cut balsa wood but still want to build from scratch because kits are so darn hard to find.... so is writing software and assembling machinery for a CNC machine he/she can afford to buy with paper route money that he makes by getting out of bed at 5 in the morning after staying up late to do homework and writing his CNC software. Maybe he/she will be kind enough to sell a few.