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Dwindling kit suppliers

Old 03-02-2007, 05:56 PM
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Default RE: Dwindling kit suppliers

I have had kits with die cutting, which was superb! Most of the recent kits I've built are a combination of laser cut, machined parts and die cut and I have no problem with this, if the quality is good. Great Planes used to have a very strong following of happy builders and satisfied customers. They were the first (in my memory) to use lots of photos and check-off list instruction booklets. What I think has happened is, they have started focusing on the ARF market as we R/Cers are telling them to!

Old 03-03-2007, 06:28 AM
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Default RE: Dwindling kit suppliers

I would also like to reiterate: The supposed success of a single manufacturer, when many others around them are failing, is still a single success story! The truth is I don't know and have seen nothing to support Balsa USA's success story, nor do I have any information to suggest anything to the contrary. I hope they truly are successful and I wish them nothing but continued prosperity!

It would be wonderful, if a poll could be taken of visitors to R/CU to see what the population of kit/scratch builders is to ARF folks (notice I didn't say ARF builders). However, because R/CU is divided up into so many topics and there does not appear to be a single go-to topic for general interests, I'm unsure where the poll could be placed to best advantage. Do you have any suggestions on where such a poll should be posted?
Old 03-03-2007, 11:00 AM
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Default RE: Dwindling kit suppliers

Mode One,
Why bother, any type poll such as that is meaningless. The poll has already been taken and the ARFs have won. People are voting with their dollars. The only real hope I see is from the poll in the ARF section where 1/3 of the respondents built both ARFs and kits.

For myself I'm scratch or plans building. Ton's of plans are out there.
John

Ed Cregger said it best -> http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=5502146
Old 03-03-2007, 11:13 AM
  #54  
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Default RE: Dwindling kit suppliers

ModeOne. I`ve been in that LHS a few times lately to browse the kits. Not much to pick thru. They did have several trainer kits from different manufactues, but not much else.
Sad to see the kits going to the way side.
Old 03-03-2007, 11:59 AM
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Default RE: Dwindling kit suppliers


ORIGINAL: JNorton

Mode One,
Why bother, any type poll such as that is meaningless. The poll has already been taken and the ARFs have won. People are voting with their dollars. The only real hope I see is from the poll in the ARF section where 1/3 of the respondents built both ARFs and kits.

For myself I'm scratch or plans building. Ton's of plans are out there.
John

Ed Cregger said it best -> http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=5502146

Maybe your right, maybe your wrong. I would still like to see actual numbers as opposed to just accepting the oft quoted cliché "People are voting with their dollars". It's what I'm interested in, if your not, don't respond to any such poll and if it's a waste of my time and meaningless, let me make the decision this is so and don't demean or belittle my interests!
Old 03-03-2007, 02:19 PM
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Default RE: Dwindling kit suppliers

It certainly wasted my intent to belittle you. I'm no happier about the lack of kits available now than you are. I can't help but have a logical mind. What use is this going to be? Who is it going to impress? How are you going to use it to get manufactures making more kits?

The oft quote of people voting with their dollars is just that. How many new kits have you seen in the last year, the last three years? Look at the catalogs. How many new ARFs? Again look in the catalogs. End of story. People are voting with their dollars because no manufacture makes what they cannot sell. I hate the fact that new kits are not being made. I hate the fact that more kit manufactures are going broke, but we live where people are buying frozen baked potatoes!!!! It takes 6 minutes in th microwave to make your own. Who would have thought those would sell. How about pre-cooked bacon or sausage?

Darn it man everyone body is on this instant gratification kick. I'm not against your poll but again I ask what is it going to accomplish?
John
Old 03-03-2007, 09:29 PM
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Default RE: Dwindling kit suppliers

JNorton, Your link to what Ed Cregger said is in a poll formulated about this very subject, by yourself! Am I to assume; Because you have already asked questions and created a poll about kit building vs ARFs, anything further stated about the subject is a waste of everyone's time? If so, give me a break!

To top this all off, as in: Just in, from the foolish department, we have two like minded people disagreeing, simply for the reason of disagreement!
Old 03-04-2007, 07:58 AM
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Default RE: Dwindling kit suppliers

Mode One,
Hey I'm sorry to get you in a tither. Do your poll. I've nothing against it. I just don't see what you are going to do with the results. In reality I suppose it doesn't make any difference if you don't do anything with it except satisfy your own curiosity. Again I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.

JNorton, Your link to what Ed Cregger said is in a poll formulated about this very subject, by yourself!
I did not make up the poll, I did not start it. I only commented in it saying if you only built ARFs try building kits. I was hoping that if I responded to a poll in the ARF section about the joys of kit building it might give some of the ARF only crowd an idea. I build both.
John
Old 03-04-2007, 08:29 AM
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Default RE: Dwindling kit suppliers

I need to appologize about stating you started this poll. Your post was at the top of the page under the results and I assumed therefore you started it. I didn't notice that this was page three of this thread.

Old 03-04-2007, 08:53 AM
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Default RE: Dwindling kit suppliers


ORIGINAL: Kelsey_B

I'm also disappointed that all of my favorite kits are gone, but this fact has turned me towards a different part of the hobby. I take a kit I have stored, or try to get one on ebay, and then create a drawing to reproduce that kit in autocad. I have done this with a royal corsair, and just starting the same process for my favorite sport plane - the great planes ultra sport 60. Here is what some of the preliminary work looks like. No templates for me. I just print out what I want to make and glue it to the wood and cut it out. I find it quite gratifying to make parts from my drawings. Its as exciting to me as flying. When I get the drawings done, I plan to do a thread to show everyone they can still have gp version of this plane.
I don't want to take the fun away from you, but the Ultra Sport 60 plan is available from RCM:

[link=http://www.rcmmagazine.com/store/store-plans-catalog-tem.html?item=plans:PL-1048&sid=0001BDPGHB2AXWUYOo4O3D2]Ultra sport 60 plan[/link]

/Red B.
Old 03-04-2007, 09:55 AM
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Default RE: Dwindling kit suppliers


ORIGINAL: Mode One

I need to appologize about stating you started this poll. Your post was at the top of the page under the results and I assumed therefore you started it. I didn't notice that this was page three of this thread.

I'm in no tither! I'm only protecting my right to an opinion! Since you obviously have an aggressive and opinionated nature, no good can come from further dialog.
I will say it once again. I deeply apologize for offending you.
John
Old 03-04-2007, 02:44 PM
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Default RE: Dwindling kit suppliers


ORIGINAL: JNorton


ORIGINAL: Mode One

I need to appologize about stating you started this poll. Your post was at the top of the page under the results and I assumed therefore you started it. I didn't notice that this was page three of this thread.

I'm in no tither! I'm only protecting my right to an opinion! Since you obviously have an aggressive and opinionated nature, no good can come from further dialog.
I will say it once again. I deeply apologize for offending you.
John

Not offended, either. Again, just asserting my right to an opinion. We're good now!
Old 03-05-2007, 08:28 AM
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Default RE: Dwindling kit suppliers

ORIGINAL: Red B.


ORIGINAL: Kelsey_B

I'm also disappointed that all of my favorite kits are gone, but this fact has turned me towards a different part of the hobby. I take a kit I have stored, or try to get one on ebay, and then create a drawing to reproduce that kit in autocad. I have done this with a royal corsair, and just starting the same process for my favorite sport plane - the great planes ultra sport 60. Here is what some of the preliminary work looks like. No templates for me. I just print out what I want to make and glue it to the wood and cut it out. I find it quite gratifying to make parts from my drawings. Its as exciting to me as flying. When I get the drawings done, I plan to do a thread to show everyone they can still have gp version of this plane.
I don't want to take the fun away from you, but the Ultra Sport 60 plan is available from RCM:

[link=http://www.rcmmagazine.com/store/store-plans-catalog-tem.html?item=plans:PL-1048&sid=0001BDPGHB2AXWUYOo4O3D2]Ultra sport 60 plan[/link]

/Red B.

I'm aware RCM has a plan, but I have built two of GP kits, so I very familiar with that kit, plus I like the fact that I wind up with a digital file. I can easily make any adjustments or modifications if I want to change how something was done.
Old 03-05-2007, 09:26 AM
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Default RE: Dwindling kit suppliers

I would much rather build than have a plane that looks like every other popular ARF at the moment.

I have assembled a few ARF's ( did not say build ) and all could do with some real plywood and good glue joints and not just thrown together to get it on the market.

I would like to see one of the manufacturers sell their ARF and also a Kit or short kit of the same plane and see which sells more.

Ron
Old 03-05-2007, 11:50 AM
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Default RE: Dwindling kit suppliers

ORIGINAL: ron9844

I would much rather build than have a plane that looks like every other popular ARF at the moment.

I have assembled a few ARF's ( did not say build ) and all could do with some real plywood and good glue joints and not just thrown together to get it on the market.

I would like to see one of the manufacturers sell their ARF and also a Kit or short kit of the same plane and see which sells more.

Ron
If anyone has any contacts at SIG they could tell us as they have both ARFs and kits of their Somethin' Extra and the 4 * 40. Carl Goldberg also has a kit and an ARF for their Tiger 2. Perhaps someone in the know will let us know.
John
Old 03-05-2007, 02:14 PM
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Default RE: Dwindling kit suppliers

When I thumb through the towwer catalog, I see a plane I think would be fun to own only to see it is only available as a ARF. Therefore, I just pass it up and keep looking for one like it in kit form. i just am not ready to put the tools down and buy arfs.

Very disappointing.
Old 03-05-2007, 03:16 PM
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Default RE: Dwindling kit suppliers

Ditto, we may be loosing kits. But there are a few 'cottage' kit makers still out there..
Buy & Stock kits for rainy days.

And it is sad that many are into ARFs for that very reason, up & in the air in no time. And if it does crash, well, no big attachement to it. A few $$ and another is ready the following week.

What we builders gain, is the slew of people who cannot repair thier minor dings & breaks! Ever charge $125 to fix a bit of cracked sheeting and covering?
Old 03-05-2007, 03:20 PM
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Default RE: Dwindling kit suppliers

I guess the good thing about arfs is it keeps the trash cans full of free parts we can scavange. I need to hang around the field more for some of those finds.

Do the arfers even take the radio gear out before trashing the planes?
Old 03-05-2007, 03:51 PM
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Default RE: Dwindling kit suppliers

You guys still whining The horse and buggy are pretty well gone too 125.00 to repair an ARF isn't bad for a little work.. I ususally charge twice the price of an ARF to build one for someone... I don't like doing it but if they are willing to pay the priccel, I find it hard to turn down...
Old 03-05-2007, 04:35 PM
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Default RE: Dwindling kit suppliers

I too have lamented the lack of kits in the LHS but I also understand it. Look at it this way. I would suspect that most successful clubs have membership from about 50-150. If those, how many are into building. An optimistice estimate is 30%. That is all of 16-50 people. Of those, how many kits would they build in a year? If every one build a kit in a year, that would be 16-50 all year. Not much of a sustainable business and that assumes that every one of those kits were stocked and purchased from that LHS.

But what about the kit manufacturers? Of all the R/C enthusiasts out there, there are still a lot of builders. It necessitates a national or even an international presence, not a local one. So I think that with the Internet, kits will be with us for a long time to come but I do think the kit industry is, and will continue to be, in a transition phase. This is all speculation by me but I think that the way kits are manufactured and distributed will continue to change.

For a kit manufacturer, I think the biggest advantage to laser cutting is not the quality of the cut but the flexibility of the equipment. Dies cut parts for a specific plane. It is a fixed capital investment. Setting up takes time so kits are most likely run in small batches and stocked.

An NC laser system does not have that limitation. It's all in the computer. For this reason, a Mom-and-Pop operation could keep a general supply of stock and run kits off on a per order basis. ("Just In Time" for you supply chain folks.) That keeps costs down and responsiveness up. I think part of the transition process will be for manufacturers like BalsaUSA, Great Planes, Top Flite, etc. to move to this technology. It will greatl improve their margins and responsiveness to market changes.

But there is a down side. There is still the matter of plane-specific hardware like cowls, wheel pants, nacels, etc. If cutting moves to Mom-and-Pop operations then so could the vacuum formed and fiberglass parts. It already exists.

So here is my crystal ball prediction.....

1. Kits will be available for a long time to come.
2. The quality of kits will continue to improves as the transition is made to CAD designs and NC laser cutting. (ARFs will pay for that conversion!)
3. Kit manufacturers may sell what looks more like a short kit. (Wood stock and laser cut parts)
4. Non-wood parts and hardware may be purchased separately and possibly through a separate company.

Salute! and Happy Landings.

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Old 03-05-2007, 04:48 PM
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Default RE: Dwindling kit suppliers

"Do the arfers even take the radio gear out before trashing the planes? "
Uncalled for so ARF buyers are stupid?
"I just pass it up and keep looking for one like it in kit form. i just am not ready to put the tools down and buy arfs."
Do you still build your radio's too?
I kills me the way some treat a ARF buyer. As if we don't have enough problems with the hobby today. AMA membership is not skyrocketing nor is participation in our sport. At least a ARF gives the average guy who might want to give R/C a shot a chance at success. He might just get the bug and become a active member. If all you "builders" now turned "whiners" would have bought the kits these guys were producing maybe it would be different. Just my opinion which don't mean squat. By the way I build Kits, and from plans and even assemble ARF's (God Forbid)
Old 03-05-2007, 05:32 PM
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Default RE: Dwindling kit suppliers

Chevelle, that's one beautiful DR1. Is it plans-built or from a kit? Lee
Old 03-05-2007, 06:00 PM
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ORIGINAL: rcmiket

"Do the arfers even take the radio gear out before trashing the planes? "
Uncalled for so ARF buyers are stupid?
"I just pass it up and keep looking for one like it in kit form. i just am not ready to put the tools down and buy arfs."
Do you still build your radio's too?
I kills me the way some treat a ARF buyer. As if we don't have enough problems with the hobby today. AMA membership is not skyrocketing nor is participation in our sport. At least a ARF gives the average guy who might want to give R/C a shot a chance at success. He might just get the bug and become a active member. If all you "builders" now turned "whiners" would have bought the kits these guys were producing maybe it would be different. Just my opinion which don't mean squat. By the way I build Kits, and from plans and even assemble ARF's (God Forbid)
I thought the content of this thread was being fair to all, with very few shots from the hip. Most R/Cers will admit they do both Kits and ARFs, if they can be honest with themselves. What is up with your tirade, here? To have such animosity towards model airplane builders, when you state: you yourself, are a builder, doesn't make much sense to me!

Old 03-05-2007, 08:31 PM
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Default RE: Dwindling kit suppliers

Thanks R/C Lee. It is a BalsaUSA 1/4 scale kit. I have a build thread in this very section of the forums if you want to see the journey.

As for ARFs, I like them too. I originally got into the hobby in the late 70's. (Yes, I'm that old. No such thing a computer radios or ARFs or 3D anything back then.) I took a 25 year hiatus for marriage and raising a family. When I got back into it a few years ago, I immediately bought a kit and an ARF. It took me a year to build the Pup but I was flying the ARF in a week. I have nothing against an ARF or those that fly them but I must admit, and ARF will never give me that same enjoyment and pride and connection than I get with a kit. That is just something that those that only fly ARFs will miss out on.
Old 03-05-2007, 11:16 PM
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Default RE: Dwindling kit suppliers

"Do the arfers even take the radio gear out before trashing the planes? "
This is fair? Give me a break. Let the original poster defend this post. My point is simple this "builders are better" crap is gone by the wayside. Times change and so does the hobby.

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