AA5BY

Following reading an old thread about the comparison, some thought came on the subject during my recent kit build. Unhappy with some of the wood of the kit it was replaced for several dollars. A spinner... more than several dollars. Some of the kit hardware wasn't suitable.... more dollars. Covering... wow...major money. Tail wheel bracket... the good ones ain't cheap.

C'mon guys... who among us kit builders keep a log of every dime we spend on an airplane... I suspect few wish to face that reality.

And... the hours, days, weeks, months and sometimes years of building a kit. And... when we're done, it's usually heavier than we'd like.

And... while there are a few out there who really do a great job of covering and making a model look super... many of us end up with a mediocre at best color scheme and finish.

So... why continue to kit build? Is it simply because life is a journey and kit building adds interest to the travel?

deckerv

My Feedback: (21)

Agree.. today's ARF's are hard to touch both price wise and quality of build. Kits give the builder much more individuality in what the end product looks like. That way you go to an airshow, and not see 10 GP Pitts with red/white…. 10 Christen Eagles all dressed exactly the same.. etc…

The problem for kit builders now (not to mention kit suppliers are dwindling) is that it costs more to build a kit, than it does to buy an ARF.

Example…
Goldberg Sukhoi ARF…$299 ... comes with everything.. fiberglass cowl and bellypan.

Goldberg Sukhoi kit….$189
Covering $32 - $50ish (multiple colors)
Glue $20 ish
Fiberglass cowl $40 ish
Fiberglass belly pan $30 ish
Not counting wheels, tank, other hardware, paint, we’re already up over $311 ish

Airplanes are slowly becoming more disposable. I have a Goldberg Sukhoi kit that I built years back. Needs to be recovered, new canopy, repair the LG, new cowl and belly pan… It’s cheaper for me to buy the ARF…lol I'm tossed.. wether to throw it away even though there is minimal damage to it.. or get one part at a time and repair it.

If suppliers could bring the costs of the accessories back down a bit, I bet kit building would be a bit more popular again. I don’t think it’ll happen though.

Remember back in the day, a kit was MUCH cheaper to build and finish. The ARF’s of the day were made by EZ, and cost an arm and a leg.. and were next to impossible to repair (foam covering).

Heck.. a GP Pitts ARF is $379.98
a GP Christen Eagle ready to cover is $379.99 ...lol Penny more for NO COVERING


The only other negative I can see with the modern ARF market is that a newcomer to the hobby may buy one, crash it, and not really know how to fix it since all they had to do was glue two wing panels together, and glue the tail on. Structurally they may not know how to patch it up without help from other flyers. May discourage some



Not knocking ARF's at all.. if you look at my models.. I have quite a few!! LOL.. just miss the good ole kit building days I guess.

Deadeye

I enjoy building. Building and flying are two SEPERATE aspects to this hobby, and should be treated as such. Some like to build, some like to fly, some like to build and fly. To each their own.

LesUyeda

Unfortunately, I find that the ARF breeds an entirely different type of flyer in the newcomer. There is a totally different attitude when one takes something that one has 30 plus hours of themselves into, versus something that one takes out of the box, and in 8 hours is ready to fly. I cannot argue about the price, but instant gratification comes to mind. Point!! the ARC (almost ready to cover) did not go over at all, although this would allow one to express his own individuality. People were not even willing to put in that much work.

Les

MinnFlyer

My Feedback: (4)

The way I see it is this:

This endevor is broken down into two aspects; A Hobby, and a Sport

Building is a Hobby, flying is a Sport

I remember when I was younger that there was one guy at our field who was a dentist. He made a lot of money, but didn't have much spare time to build - nor did he have the skills or desire, but he loved to fly. So he would go to the LHS and buy a plane off the ceiling and have a ball. If he crashed, he went back to the LHS and bought another one - and nobody ever gave him any grief about it.

I see no reason why anyone who enjoys the "sport" should be automatically required to join the "hobby" or looked down upon for not joining. True, some basic building skills should be learned, and the more "Hobby" aspect you learn, the better over-all understanding you will have. But not everyone has the time/skills/desire to do that.

I have heard arguements made that, "If they don't build, they don't know enough about etc. etc." But I have seen newbies that built a plane and tried to run the engine with a cracked Prop.

So it's not just ARF fliers who make rookie mistakes - ROOKIES make rookie mistakes.

mmattockx

I disagree on the quality issue, if I EVER build a plane as crappy as a lot of the ARFs seem to be put together, I want someone to punch me. I actually take the time to put glue on EVERY joint. My covering will not have wrinkles galore and seams pulling up in 3 flights or less. My wings will be straight, etc. I agree, not everyone can build to a high level of quality, but the only way to correct that is to TRY. The first planes I built weren't that hot, but they got better over time... That seems to be a major victim of the instant gratification mentality - nobody wants to work at learning something that isn't a video game.

Cost can be an issue. Personally, I'll pay more to build it myself. I love the building aspect of it, but not everybody feels that way and I understand that. Each his own, I don't play video games myself.

The individuality part is a major appeal to me, I don't think I have ever built a plane exactly as per the kit (or plans, for that matter). I always change something, even if it's a minor item like servo mounting or control set up. And has anyone else noticed that most of the ARFers at the field are almost in awe of someone who actually BUILDS their own aircraft? You get your instant gratification with the people shaking their heads and muttering "I could never do that". Of course they can, but their attitude stops them in their tracks and makes a kit or plans built model something unusual and special. I've got to be honest, I enjoy that reaction. It's not why I build, but it is still another small plus in being different than the hordes.


Mark

deckerv

My Feedback: (21)

Yupperdoodle... know what you mean. I have had really good luck with the GP arf's..but not so much with the less expensive ones from GSP for example.

I like kit building myself, but hard to do on a short budget Ah well.

I keep eyeing a Ziroli Mustang or Zero down the road In the end I get a LOT more satisfaction out of a kit/plans as well so I know what you mean. The best thing in the world is someone coming up to you and saying "what ARF is that??" and you can tell them that you built and covered it from a kit/plan

Robbidos

My Feedback: (20)

I love the challenge of building. I have built a number of kits. My next challenge is building from plans, mebby even a foam wing. I also fly ARFs. MY current favorite fun fly is my H9 Ultra Stick 40. Its a blast to dive full speed. Hit the airbrake, and land within 20 feet.

2slow2matter

My Feedback: (1)

Most of the hardware that comes with ARF's isn't worth having either--although I usually end up using it anyway. I have both. The advantage of building a kit is knowing that it's done right. The advantage of an arf, obviously, is price and time. I like building--a lot, but I don't like building in the summer. That time is reserved for rebuilding

huggins

Your last line says it all. For most people that build kits (or scratch) it is not about the time or the money, making the argument a mute point. For me, it is not where I'm going, but how I get there that counts.

Mike

JimO

My Feedback: (7)

Both have there place in model aviation today. I have both and enjoy the build of a kit and the assembly of an ARF, end result get it in the air and enjoy. One difference though is not all Aircraft are available in an ARF.

Try tp find a crop duster in an ARF. Kyosho had one for a while and now it is gone, you can find short kits to build and if you are into this type of plane, the ony choice is to build it.

GrantK

My Feedback: (15)

Oh, not anouther one of these discussions. I've seen several of these here, in the arf forum, scale, warbird, giant. And none of them ever got anywhere. If you enjoy building, build. If you don't, then don't. And neither side should knock the other for there practices.

zachmccool

I'm working on my first kit now (SSE) and I love the fact that it is relaxing and can be done regardless of weather or time of night.

Airspur63

Hi guys,I dont mean to barge in on this topic ,but I think that we are all in this for the fun and segragation is not the answere.If anything for the people who have not built from a kit or plans,you should not feel like you are a outsider,for us who prefer to build(I myself,who is teaching my youngest nephew) should maybe take a person under our wing and show them how much fun it is and what you can gain just by learning something new,thats what its all about.After all,if you build,assemble or fly,we all have the same goal,and that is to have fun.

Life is to short,enjoy it!!!

alfredbmor

I agree with many of you and do not agree with some, and that’s exactly what this thread mean, there are many people that just love to build (I did build the 70% of my entire fleet), and I have bought a bunch of ARFs, many of them great fliers and others not so good, I really like to fly any Kit or ARF but to be honest I feel better flying my Kits. The building spirit is to me a very special thing, I have to recognize that I am a heart builder, I build and repair toys for my kids, I have built a doll house for my daughter and I have 4 kits in home waiting to be built and I am planning to buy some more. Meanwhile I could order a few ARFs and fly them. For sure I will continue my days building kits and buying ARFs and having fun flying, building, assembling, crashing, repairing and so.
This is a Hobby you can take it the ways it better suits you.
Have fun.

D-LOCO

I started with an ARF (LT-40). Crunched the wing badly towards the end of the flying season []

I bought a new wing for my LT-40 because I didn't know how (or if) I could repair it.

Over the winter I built 2 kits. A 4*60 and an LT-25. The 4* cost as much as the ARF version after I bought covering, etc.

I "scrounged" enough covering to cover the LT-25 so it didn't cost much.

I loved building. Its just in me (engineer by profession) but you can't justify it based on money.

Thanks to the experience of building, the next time I crunch a wing, I'll just bring it home and fix it!

So, fly the ARFs but build if you can (at least one plane). You'll learn alot.

My $.02

Dave
AMA 847123

ps: my building skills (especially covering) are not great but if I ever build again it'll probably be better.

boxbeam

My Feedback: (188)

If I could just add a suggestion on this thread, I would like to encourage those who have never built a kit but enjoying flying ARF's to try one. Pick up lets say an inexpensive Goldberg Falcon 56 III kit which is fairly easy to assemble and a fun flier. Learning how to construct one from beginning to end is very self rewarding and your knowledge of the actual plane itself and how they are constructed will be an asset in seasons to come, especially when times of repair are necessary. [] Spend those rainy days you can't be at the field at home hovering over your building board applying your skills building and learning like those who have spent hundreds of hours in doing the same thing, designing both the kit and the ARF. You will have a much deeper appreciation for the sport/hobby that we all enjoy!

Ron

overbored77

My Feedback: (11)

I have worked for or helped at Many LHS for many years and Kit vs Arf is a debate I have heard many times. , I heard many times one of the more experienced guys say that if you didn't build it, it's not as fun to fly. This being said that same gentlemen had spent countless hours building a super chipmunk. it was a gorgeuos plane and I remember it was the first time I said if I could fly something like that I would get into flying. Well as I remember this beuatiful plane met it's demise very early and this poor guy was crushed. when he came into the shop with the remains I felt horrible for him, I remember him saying alot of offensive words and walking out with a rather large box containing an ARF chipmunk and another kit.

I think that some people do want that instant gratification, also with the schedules some people work, raising children and all the other
things that make life fun, some of us just want to go out to the field and enjoy without the hassles of building, others that I have met
believe they don't posess the necassary skills to build a plane and some just can't be bothered with building. Others just want something inexpensive to tool around with while they finish their pride and joy.

I personally built my PT-40 trainer and felt like a proud father when my instructor maidened it, and I was amazed it actually flew.
the PT-40 cost me 160.00 no engine or radio, I didn't worry about the cost it was a great experience, I am also building my second
kit Tiger 60 I am up over 140 with glue and different hardware, estimated price is 250 less radio and motor. I don't feel bad that I could have had the ARF for 199.00. it's winter. But I also have my eye on the GP reactor, and H9 funtana I expect to own both by mid summer.

Well I guess my long winded story is summed up as, if you fly ARF I hope to fly with you and shoot the breeze about assembling and flying . If you build kits I hope to fly with you and steal some of your knowledge for my future endeavors. And I hope we can all get to fly and enjoy this hobby regardless of who built our planes.

fokker20planes

Plain (plane) and simple. I build because I can. It is the best therapy I know. You won't build cheaper than an ARF that is true. But build just one kit and watch it fly and no matter how imperfect it is compared to the cookie cutter ARFs on the market, you will be hooked. Before you know it, all you will do is build!

Stickbuilder

When did this hobby/sport become about money? It has never been an inexpensive pasttime. Even the ols dime Comet kits required my spending a dime, and then another quarter for the Bannana liquid, or the dope to finish it. thirty five cents was a lot of money back then. If I had wanted, I could have watched other people flying the rubber powered free flights, and it would have cost me nothing.

For someone to say that they don't build because they can buy an ARF for less money does not wash with me. I see that statement as a cop-out. If (and a lot of us do) you play golf, do you buy the cheapest set of clubs, or if you are a boater, do you buy the cheapest inflatable dingy? I didn't think so. All of us have a hobby or sport in which we like to participate. We spend the majority of our discretionary income in that pursuit. So don't use the cost of building as an argument against it. Why not be honest? If you don't know how to do something, either figure it out, ar ask someone. Everyone is ignorant about some things (you can't have knowledge of everything) Learn to build. It will carry you through the times when you cannat fly, and you may just find that you like the outcome better than the cookie-cutters that you see at the field.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

dmcmike

My Feedback: (14)

nothing like beating a dead horse... but really, If you want to fly without spending the time to build, buy an arf. If you enjoy the creative process involved and can provide the craftsmanship required to match the finish of an arf (yeah, they're getting pretty good anymore), then by all means get a kit. If you want the challange of engineering solutions to problems as they present themselves, or want something a bit out of the ordinary, then get some plans, order the wood and build from them. If you REALLY have a good idea as to what's going on, then search the web for a 3-view or come up with your own configuration, draw your plans, order the wood, and scratch build everything... There's really nothing wrong with any of these approaches. Sort of like Blondes vs Redheads vs Brunettes. Myself, I've never owned an arf, but that will probably change, and I've been flying for almost 40 years! Personally, I really enjoy the satisfaction of a job well done and the accolades that come with the compliments when I break out a new model at the field. I've noticed, if it's an arf, everyone will pretty much disect it in the first 30 seconds, with various comments about how things could be improved here and there, If it's a kit or scratch build.. it's usually "wow" or "great job". It's those compliments, and always wanting to improve on what i've learned from my last build that keeps me coming back to the building board.

But i'm really saving the pennies right now for a wild hard edge...

mmattockx

Bill,

Very true. Same goes with the "I don't have time to build" excuse. Bunk. We find time and money for the things that matter to us. Period. If you don't want to build, so what? But don't whine about it and use lame excuses to justify your choices. I don't let my 6 year old do that, so why should grown adults get away with it?


Mark

ag4ever

If you want to build you will.

I like building, and given the choice between the field and the build, I will split my time. That is because the building is fun to me. I also don't rush the build. I want to build, and I want it to last so I can enjoy it.

I am fortunate that the money is not a big issue. I get things as they fit my budget, but I am not looking to see how cheap I can get a plane flying. This is a hobby to me, so it will never be cheap.

My biggest grip with the ARFs is that there are some people that are on the bubble as the whether they would build vs. get an ARF. With the cheap labor overseas, we are actually hurting the kit community by elimiating these fringe builders. Heck, there are some builders that might not even know they like building because they do see the cheap ARFs and figure why build.

Right now, I am toying with the idea of stocking up on kits for fear they might not be around when I want to build them.

mmattockx

Excellent idea. I have been on a stocking binge of kits, plans and engines for the last year or so. Especially plans. I have enough stuff socked away to build until I'm retired at least, maybe until I'm dead...


Mark

deckerv

My Feedback: (21)

Cop out or not... if you don't have the money, you don't have the money. I'm lucky enough to continue this hobby after my dad died, and if that means I have to build fewer kits to do so, then that's what you have to do. What little disposable income I do have though, I either fix the house, or put a few dollars here and there into my only hobby.

I love kit building, but you cannot tell me that it's less expensive. Unfortunately some of us don't have the disposable income that others do, and I see nothing really wrong with either side of the fence. ARF's are unfortunately cheaper now, and it's killing the kit building industry any way you look @ it.

For newcomers to the hobby, I still recommend buying and building a kit early on in your endeavor. The knowledge you will gain from seeing how things are built will only help you for the inevitable crash. Most things can be repaired, most inexpensively. Just weigh the cost of repair vs. new though. I too am going to slowly buy a kit here and there, just to have around.. even though I don't have the money to finish it right now

Sry.. Off my soapbox for good Just hate having fingers pointed @ me (since I'm the only one that brought up money as an issue, I'm gathering I was the one that stirred the pot) for valid points... All good fun though. Hey, if you can build and fly it, who the heck cares. Have fun either way and promote the hobby, don't shake your finger at others for whatever way they promote it though.

For what it's worth, I admire the work you've done on that Waco Stickbuilder... my dad built one years back.. beautiful on the ground and in the air.


p.s. For any of you that want to build a really nice kit as well, Adian Paige kits really are a work of art. I love how easy this GeeBee R2 went together.