slim_pkns

Howdy all!!

I'm a bit new to the forums and I was wondering if anyone could help me. I have a fondness for vintage stuff and I have a couple of kits that I want to build but seem a bit intimidating. I have a VK Cherokee Babe and an old Flair Legionaire (sport semi-scale Nieuport 17) I'm dying to start building.

I'm not an experienced builder. I started building models as a kid and helped my dad with some control line models in the 70's but I have't built anything since. There aren't real detailed documents with either kit. The plans look good but there isn't a manual with step-by-step instructions with the VK Cherokee Babe and the Flair Legionaire is about seven pages typed with limited details.

I"ve searched the web for build threads and details on both but there isn't much to go on. Anyone out there remember these kits? If so, any willing to answer some novice questions and give advice?

Thanks for any help you can provide.

Campy

My Feedback: (1)

Most of your vintage kits assumed some building knowledge. I suggest building a couple of kits from SIG, Great Planes and Goldberg first, then do your vintage kits. These manufacturers have well detailed instructions and youwill get the "hands on" knowledge you need (as well as varying styles/types ) of building knowledge you will need. The Flair kit is probably going to be harder to do than the VK kit.

TexasAirBoss

My Feedback: (22)

I too have fallen in love with old vintage kits, scale ones in particular. Like Campy said, they are more difficult to build, or at least they take much more time to build than modern kits. And the kits Campy mentioned are very good kits, at least Goldberg and Sig are, I haven't built a Great Planes kit myself.
I had been building about 25 years, before I got into the vintage stuff. And it was very different form the new stuff. There are some very "old shool" techniques employed that I had never seen or used before. So, in some ways, experience building modern kits helps and in some ways it doesn't. But , with every new technique you see and use, you add to your "bag of tricks".
I haven't built a VK or a Flair kit. So, I can't offer and specific help. I would second Campy's advise to get your feet wet on a modern kit. They have some with 40 page instruction books with pictures of every step.

Campgems

I've built a couple of the older kits and one thing pops to the surface with this thread. That is the tools needed. The old kits were not shy about providing a block of balsa and a note on the plan to carve this from balsa stock. My first two kits were never finished. I was completely blown away with that type of instructions. My pocket knife just wouldn't do the trick and at the time, I had the choice of it and a double edge razor blade. Today, with a band saw, scroll saw, belt and disk sander and a fordom flex shaft with a number of different cutting tools to fit, those task are not as overwhelming as they once were. There is little of that type work needed with the new kits. The four star 60's that I built only had the faring around the vertical stab to carve and the instructions even pointed out a neat trick to make the job easier. I just finished an older kit, not vintage by any means, but there was no lite ply parts, just thick balsa with a lot of sanding. I used the 4* trick on in vs the instructions to sheat in the faring. Some of the experience building the new kits will come in handy on the old stuff.

One other big difference besides tools is the choice of adheasives now. That alone makes building much easier and way faster than the old ambroid glues.

I'll third the motion, start in the future and work your way back. A kit like the four star is very hard to not build correctly as everything is laser cut and it is dificult to get it out of alignment. I would start with a kit like that, then go back to one of about 1980 vintage, then a 60s kit then to the old time stuff. I may be dating myself, but vintage to me is the 1940's and 50"s stuff.

A word of caution though, this model building gets under your skin and is more adictive than some drugs.

Don

Stickbuilder

Boy, does this hit home. This is what I have been preaching for a while now. Thankfully, some of you have begun to have an interest in building, rather than just flying what is available as an ARF. If you have a look in the Vintage and Antique forum, you will probably find a thread that will apply to one or more of the kits that you have. The builders there will be most happy to assist you with anything that you don't understand about what you are trying to build. No, the older builder's kits did not bore you with extraneous drivel about step by step building steps. It was pretty much a given that if you were building a VK, Flair or Pica kit, you had enough building experience to know what steps to perform in a logical manner. No one had a clue that building would fall out of favor. Welcome to our world. Join us and we'll help you find your way through the maze.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

FokkerAce

Ditto to building something that has better directions and less total value!

Sig Kadet? thing

Double check things as you are building, trim/sand things to fit, don't force things -- they break or shove something else out of alignment
[can always ask here]
Straight, square and plumb are important.

Ya might want to resist the urge to build with CA.....the leisurely pace that Titebond or others lets you enjoy the build, and keeps you from getting too many mistakes ahead of yourself.

My seven-year old says last nite....out of the blue...Dad, it feels really good to sit and build! [he's building his second Guillow's plane]

Stickbuilder.....keep preaching!

I introduce 12-20 kids through a kit plane project each year with my engineering design class.

FA[8D]

slim_pkns

Thanks Stickbuilder! I'll look for the Vintage and Antique forum. I really appreicate your input. I think it would be great to do a build thread since I see so many post about both models but no pics or real details. If I decide to work through this online, should I start a thread here or on the Vintage and Antique forum?

Stickbuilder

I would think that the Vintage and Antique forum would be the place to do your thread, since it applies to a true Vintage kit. I have a small thread going there now on the WACO YMF. It is over 160 pages long with over 4000 posts, some with pictures. We have generated enough interest in the WACO that the AMA is offering the plans (original Pica) and we (the WACO Brotherhood) have supplied the AMA with the parts templates. Now the kit is alive and well, of course you have to cut it, but that was not a possibility before. Have a look. I never intended to start a thread that was that popular, but with 2 wings and a round engine, you can't go wrong.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

sledge_78

My Feedback: (24)

Slim,

I had been a kit builder in the 60's & 70's. One had to be in order to fly. A few years ago I got back into the R/C hobby and was surprised to learn of the many new building technologies. It took a while to test my skills with CA, monocote, and of course servo's.
My first trainer was an ARF (Avistar) which took a beating from my learning to fly. The beatings actaully let me use my past skills and the new technologies for the repairs. My first plane after the Avistar was a Top Flite Contender. Of course it was realatively eay to build and the manual is superb. It actually came out looking very good the monocote even looked great. Now I am into more sophisticated building and have several old vintage Scale kits also. In particular, is a F8F Bearcat kit designed by Ziroli and made back in the 70's. Also, the manual is limited to hand written directions on the plans, but I am very confident it will finish looking great even with the mods I included.

The moral to this story is basically : You have a great vintage kit that you are anxious to build. I'm sure you want it to look great when finished. Take your time, hone your skills on something simple for now. When you completely finish a modern simple kit take a step back and ask your self what would you have done differently or better if you had to build it again. You'll see things that next time around will be 100% better. Then consider the vintage kit. Look it over, see where new technology or techniques can be applied to strengthen, simplify, and improve performance. If you can do that you are ready to tackle it.

Good Luck,
Sledge_78

saramos

Slim,

There's lots of good advice. I also agree that it would be best to start with a kit from sig or goldberg, then move on to a more advanced build with good instructions like one of the TopFlite kits, then go for the vintage kits. This is the way I'm doing it.

Here's a website that I strongly suggest spending some time reading through. www.airfieldmodels.com by Paul Johnson (cafeenman) is an excelent site for any builder. You will find lots of information and how-tos on everything from tools to covering. It's a great resource. The only problem is, when visiting the site, it's real easy to loose track of time.

Scott

Roary m

My Feedback: (67)

However possible, take your time and enjoy the build. The maiden flight really makes the excitement (and nerves) build up as opposed to an arf since you really did build it. Building is fun all by itself.

Mode One

My first R/C airplane was a Sterling J-3 Cub, built in 1968. The second one started in 1969, was VK Cherokee! I only remember thinking how basic and much easier the Cherokee was to build, then the Sterling J-3. As far as instruction were concerned, I have to say I simply don't remember. For the Cherokee I would guess a few type written pages were all there were. I had built many free flight models previous, which must have been enough to make the Cherokee seem a pretty simple kit! I remember the structure of the Cherokee as very simple and in reality not much instructions were needed, as it was simply glue balsa block A to balsa plank B and sand or carve away anything that didn't look like a VK Cherokee. The Cherokee was designed for use with reed equiopment and had more dihedral then was needed, due to this. The Cherokee Babe came out later and may have been changed for use with propo equipment, check this out previous to building as you may want to reduce the dihedral.

This brings up an interesting question: Why would the VK Cherokee/Babe have been considered a beginners kit back in the 60s and early 70s; but, considered far beyond the realm of possibilities, now?

saramos

I don't think it's a matter of being far beyond the realm of possibilities. Being a vintage kit, replacement is difficult if any errors develop during construction. Better to hone onces builidng skills on kits that are readily avalable.

Mode One

So a dumb mistake was more easily correctable then, then it is now? However, I agree that a kit or two under the belt would be good practice.

Ralph78

I must totally agree with CAMPGEMS, start with a modern kit. The Sig Kits, such as the 4*60 are easy to build and give you a lot of experience in construction technique and have very good instructions. The 4*60 Kit is Laser cut so everything fits well. If you want to start with something simpler, a Kadet Sr. would be an excellent first kit. If you do build either of these kits, I would recommend beefing up the center sections of both kits. I would make a new DH brace from 1/8" aircraft ply and take it out two more bays in each wing half. Then make a second DH brace and put it at about 2/3 of the way back. I did both my Kadet Sr and 4*60 that way, and have never had to worry about the wing folding. What I am going to do on my next 4*60 is also sheet the leading edge back to the first spar top and bottom, using 1/16 sheet, and add sheer webs at least 2/3 out on each wing half.

After you have built one or more modern kit, look into some of the Partial or full kits that built by small kit builders that put out kits for SAM Radio Assist and "Old Timer FF" Some of the partial kits are Laser cut the parts fit very well, and make beautiful majestic slow flying aircraft.

Keep us up to date on how you do, and don't be afraid to ask questions.

Happy building,

Ralph