Lanier 81" Cap 232
05-10-2008, 10:34 AM
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RE: Lanier 81" Cap 232
Skins are done. Here's a pic to show what was done:
Pretty simple...just tape em at the edges, trace around the patterns, and cut.
The only real "big" tip here is to remember to make tops and bottoms for each wing...that is to say, remember to make 2 facing each way, as it were. Tape should be on what will become the visible, or non-epoxied, side of the skin.
Bagging should happen tonight or tomorrow, depending on how various errands/duties work out for those involved. Will have pics when it does.
===========================
sscherin,
When you get settled somewhere and start building, I'll be happy to send my stab and wing templates your way, if you wish. Won't save you a WHOLE bunch of work, but might knock out a couple hours one evening. Just let me know.
Pretty simple...just tape em at the edges, trace around the patterns, and cut.
The only real "big" tip here is to remember to make tops and bottoms for each wing...that is to say, remember to make 2 facing each way, as it were. Tape should be on what will become the visible, or non-epoxied, side of the skin.
Bagging should happen tonight or tomorrow, depending on how various errands/duties work out for those involved. Will have pics when it does.
===========================
sscherin,
When you get settled somewhere and start building, I'll be happy to send my stab and wing templates your way, if you wish. Won't save you a WHOLE bunch of work, but might knock out a couple hours one evening.
Just let me know.
05-11-2008, 09:48 AM
#27
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RE: Lanier 81" Cap 232
Wings be bagged!
Ok, first of all, some info about the bagging equipment. This specific equipment came from Aerospace Composites http://www.acp-composites.com/ Though several years old, it is essentially their "EZ Vac Bagging Kit"
For those DIY-ers around, there's really no reason not to make your own system, to be honest. Glad ForceFlex garbage bags will work nicely as bags (It IS best to use polyethylene bags and ForceFlex are 100% polyethylene, and flexible enough to withstand the vacuum without tearing or stretching too much.). Some duct-tape can seal the ends, and a simple pipe - NPT adapter from lowes, a few rubber washers, and some 1/8" ID hose will handle the air exchange. Then all that's required is a pump.
The pump CAN be made from quite a few different "household" or "easily sourced" items. Up to you if you want to go to that hassle, however. What you're after 6-7" inches of pressure...definitely no more than 10"! I've seen some pretty amusing stories about VERY thin wings being produced with 127" or more. You'll also need to have some way to regulate it, as you'll want to leave these wings in the bag AT LEAST over night (more on that in a moment).
So, all things considered, it's PROBABLY easier to go ahead and spend $90 on an EZ-VAC from ACP, and know that you'll get just the right pressure, it'll last, and you don't have to muck about building anything.
========================
Having said all of that, our bagging saga begins.
First things first...we checked the bench from every angle to ensure that it was flat. This is CRITICAL. It doesn't have to be LEVEL, but it does need to be FLAT! And I mean FLAT! Even a slight bow or warp anywhere is going to result in your wings doing an excellent job of molding themselves into that bow/low spot. While 1/8" bow in the table doesn't look like much, a 1/8" bow in a wing is downright annoying. *heh* Given the pressures involved (I read somewhere that bagging wings like this is essentially equivalent to setting a small car on them), these wings WILL squeeze right along any un-even spot on the table.
Next, we laid down a big sheet of plastic. This too, oddly, is "essential". We're going to be working quickly, and spreading epoxy everywhere, and we don't want epoxy all over the bench. Here's everything laid out ready to go...note the plastic.
A quick note here...you may be able to tell in that picture that that is Great Planes Finishing Resin. That lasted for precisely one wing skin, and we changed over to Z-Poxy Finishing Resin. More on that in a minute. Worth noting here, however, finishing resin IS the best choice here...just not Great Planes.
Next, we arranged everything in the shop so we had a smooth "work flow". With two people, we were able to do both wings AND the stabs in one go...one of us spread epoxy, the other laid skins in shucks and taped things up.
Finally ready to go, epoxy was mixed. YES, as silly as it seems, I STRONGLY encourage that you mix the epoxy ON A SCALE. The BIGGEST benefit to this method is SAVING WEIGHT. How much weight can you save? Well, take a look at this:
That's all that's mixed per wing sheet. Yep. 1 oz. And if you spread well, there should be some waste that spreads off the wing skin, and is left in the roller.
Now, let's stop and think about this for a minute. If you simply used TWO ounces of epoxy here, spreading it out with, say, a bit of wood, and left the skin with a wet shiny look...VERY easy to do...you just added 4 ounces to your wings. Repeat that process on the tail, and guess what...we're talking about half a pound of extra weight...for glue that ISN'T DOING ANYTHING. Once epoxy binds to wood, anything left over does NOT increase the strength of the bond...it's COMPLETELY dead weight.
Next step, then, is to spread this stuff onto the wing:
Spread it out with a small paint roller just as THIN as you can get it. I mean, MASH DOWN, and REALLY spread it out. YES, a lousy OUNCE is MORE than enough. The epoxy will be SO thin, that you'll have to pick the sheet up and tilt it to the light to even see if there's any missed areas. it will NOT be shiny, it will NOT look wet. If you touch it with a finger, it will feel BARELY tacky...less so than masking tape even. Roll, Roll, Roll, and Roll some more, getting every last millimeter of wing skin. Tip it up to the light, as mentioned above, to check for missed/dry spots. just remember, you should HAVE to tip it up to the light to do so.
I know, I know...that simply can NOT be enough epoxy, right?
Yeah...it can. I won't drop names here, but let's just say that the fellow you see spreading epoxy in the background has built some awfully expensive sets of wings for some awfully well known guys. As a more personal example, I used this method for my pride and joy 1/3rd scale pits, and it ain't folded a wing DESPITE my best clumsy efforts. *heh*
Yes. It's enough.
Now...bit of a diversion here...one of the reasons for using finishing resin is it usually spreads a bit easier, and it won't go off for quite a while. Well, take a look at that picture of the epoxy being rolled above...see how thick and goopy it is? That's the Great Planes stuff. It spreads for crap, to be honest...makes it MUCH more difficult to get the whole sheet covered, meaning, of course, you'll use more. We used the full 1 oz on the skin we did with this stuff, no waste at all. Everything else, done with ZPoxy finishing resin, had rather large globs of epoxy left on the table around the edges of the skins...meaning, of course, lighter wings.
Once epoxy is spread, just start putting skins on wings and wings into shucks. It's ESSENTIAL to line the shucks/wings up as precisely as you can. Once everything's put together, tape it up (so you don't jostle things around sliding wings into bags), and move on to the next wing.
Finally, we did the stabs. There was another 1 oz of epoxy used for the ENTIRE tail...both horiz stabs, and vert stab. All in all, not bad...we probably introduced, after waste was scraped away, no more than 4 oz of weight to the airplane.
Having now said all of that...and ranted about how little epoxy is needed...here's WHY:
The wings in their bag, the air starting to come out.
As said above, it really does kind of "escape the mind" just how much pressure is on these things. Figure, though, that even just a couple more inches of pressure would, quite literally, COLLAPSE these wings into wafers, and it gives you an idea...you are, effectively, putting just about as MUCH weight on these things as they can take without being destroyed...certainly, a WHOLE BUNCH more weight than you'll manage with a few concrete blocks.
The other advantage is that the weight is evenly distributed....it HAS to be, by definition. Once the pump has pulled the bag down tight (this'll take as much as a half hour or so), the pressure throughout is a constant.
This means that there's no chance you'll have an edge that doesn't quite bond, or whatever. And you don't have to move weights around trying to get this edge to lay flat, that section to stick, etc etc.
Finally, since you'll be leaving the wings bagged at LEAST over night (an extra second night won't hurt), the epoxy will be well and truly cured.
When these guys come out of the bags, I'll show some more pictures, and weigh things so we can see how we came out.
=================================================
Last but not least, a couple of tricks that we DIDN'T use last night for one reason or another.
1) You can be even MORE obsessive, and save even MORE weight by spraying the wingskins with a light coat of hairspray before rolling the epoxy out. You'll find the epoxy a bit easier to spread, and thus use slightly less. We tried, but of all the luck, the hairspray can gave up the ghost. *sigh*
2) If you'll REALLY intense, there's another "layer". On larger wings, or if you're just completely anal about weight, you can put a layer of carbon fiber mat from ACP in between skin and foam. The "trick" here is that the SKIN doesn't get the epoxy, the CF MAT does. You lay IT out on the table, roll epoxy through it, and it, essentially, carries enough epoxy in the fibers to do the job. Had I wanted to spend the extra time, effort, and $ to go this route, we quite possibly could have done all the wings AND tail group in 2 oz or so. Probably not worth it for this "weekend flyer" Cap, but ABSOLUTELY worth it for high end FAI stuff, or what have you.
==================================
There you have it. Wing Bagging 101
This obviously isn't the only way to do things, but it's absolutely a known, proven, reliable way to produce strong, light wings. And that can't be a bad thing.
Ok, first of all, some info about the bagging equipment. This specific equipment came from Aerospace Composites http://www.acp-composites.com/ Though several years old, it is essentially their "EZ Vac Bagging Kit"
For those DIY-ers around, there's really no reason not to make your own system, to be honest. Glad ForceFlex garbage bags will work nicely as bags (It IS best to use polyethylene bags and ForceFlex are 100% polyethylene, and flexible enough to withstand the vacuum without tearing or stretching too much.). Some duct-tape can seal the ends, and a simple pipe - NPT adapter from lowes, a few rubber washers, and some 1/8" ID hose will handle the air exchange. Then all that's required is a pump.
The pump CAN be made from quite a few different "household" or "easily sourced" items. Up to you if you want to go to that hassle, however. What you're after 6-7" inches of pressure...definitely no more than 10"! I've seen some pretty amusing stories about VERY thin wings being produced with 127" or more. You'll also need to have some way to regulate it, as you'll want to leave these wings in the bag AT LEAST over night (more on that in a moment).
So, all things considered, it's PROBABLY easier to go ahead and spend $90 on an EZ-VAC from ACP, and know that you'll get just the right pressure, it'll last, and you don't have to muck about building anything.
========================
Having said all of that, our bagging saga begins.
First things first...we checked the bench from every angle to ensure that it was flat. This is CRITICAL. It doesn't have to be LEVEL, but it does need to be FLAT! And I mean FLAT! Even a slight bow or warp anywhere is going to result in your wings doing an excellent job of molding themselves into that bow/low spot. While 1/8" bow in the table doesn't look like much, a 1/8" bow in a wing is downright annoying. *heh* Given the pressures involved (I read somewhere that bagging wings like this is essentially equivalent to setting a small car on them), these wings WILL squeeze right along any un-even spot on the table.
Next, we laid down a big sheet of plastic. This too, oddly, is "essential". We're going to be working quickly, and spreading epoxy everywhere, and we don't want epoxy all over the bench. Here's everything laid out ready to go...note the plastic.
A quick note here...you may be able to tell in that picture that that is Great Planes Finishing Resin. That lasted for precisely one wing skin, and we changed over to Z-Poxy Finishing Resin. More on that in a minute. Worth noting here, however, finishing resin IS the best choice here...just not Great Planes.
Next, we arranged everything in the shop so we had a smooth "work flow". With two people, we were able to do both wings AND the stabs in one go...one of us spread epoxy, the other laid skins in shucks and taped things up.
Finally ready to go, epoxy was mixed. YES, as silly as it seems, I STRONGLY encourage that you mix the epoxy ON A SCALE. The BIGGEST benefit to this method is SAVING WEIGHT. How much weight can you save? Well, take a look at this:
That's all that's mixed per wing sheet. Yep. 1 oz. And if you spread well, there should be some waste that spreads off the wing skin, and is left in the roller.
Now, let's stop and think about this for a minute. If you simply used TWO ounces of epoxy here, spreading it out with, say, a bit of wood, and left the skin with a wet shiny look...VERY easy to do...you just added 4 ounces to your wings. Repeat that process on the tail, and guess what...we're talking about half a pound of extra weight...for glue that ISN'T DOING ANYTHING. Once epoxy binds to wood, anything left over does NOT increase the strength of the bond...it's COMPLETELY dead weight.
Next step, then, is to spread this stuff onto the wing:
Spread it out with a small paint roller just as THIN as you can get it. I mean, MASH DOWN, and REALLY spread it out. YES, a lousy OUNCE is MORE than enough. The epoxy will be SO thin, that you'll have to pick the sheet up and tilt it to the light to even see if there's any missed areas. it will NOT be shiny, it will NOT look wet. If you touch it with a finger, it will feel BARELY tacky...less so than masking tape even. Roll, Roll, Roll, and Roll some more, getting every last millimeter of wing skin. Tip it up to the light, as mentioned above, to check for missed/dry spots. just remember, you should HAVE to tip it up to the light to do so.
I know, I know...that simply can NOT be enough epoxy, right?
Yeah...it can. I won't drop names here, but let's just say that the fellow you see spreading epoxy in the background has built some awfully expensive sets of wings for some awfully well known guys.
As a more personal example, I used this method for my pride and joy 1/3rd scale pits, and it ain't folded a wing DESPITE my best clumsy efforts. *heh*Yes. It's enough.
Now...bit of a diversion here...one of the reasons for using finishing resin is it usually spreads a bit easier, and it won't go off for quite a while. Well, take a look at that picture of the epoxy being rolled above...see how thick and goopy it is? That's the Great Planes stuff. It spreads for crap, to be honest...makes it MUCH more difficult to get the whole sheet covered, meaning, of course, you'll use more. We used the full 1 oz on the skin we did with this stuff, no waste at all. Everything else, done with ZPoxy finishing resin, had rather large globs of epoxy left on the table around the edges of the skins...meaning, of course, lighter wings.
Once epoxy is spread, just start putting skins on wings and wings into shucks. It's ESSENTIAL to line the shucks/wings up as precisely as you can. Once everything's put together, tape it up (so you don't jostle things around sliding wings into bags), and move on to the next wing.
Finally, we did the stabs. There was another 1 oz of epoxy used for the ENTIRE tail...both horiz stabs, and vert stab. All in all, not bad...we probably introduced, after waste was scraped away, no more than 4 oz of weight to the airplane.
Having now said all of that...and ranted about how little epoxy is needed...here's WHY:
The wings in their bag, the air starting to come out.
As said above, it really does kind of "escape the mind" just how much pressure is on these things. Figure, though, that even just a couple more inches of pressure would, quite literally, COLLAPSE these wings into wafers, and it gives you an idea...you are, effectively, putting just about as MUCH weight on these things as they can take without being destroyed...certainly, a WHOLE BUNCH more weight than you'll manage with a few concrete blocks.
The other advantage is that the weight is evenly distributed....it HAS to be, by definition. Once the pump has pulled the bag down tight (this'll take as much as a half hour or so), the pressure throughout is a constant.
This means that there's no chance you'll have an edge that doesn't quite bond, or whatever. And you don't have to move weights around trying to get this edge to lay flat, that section to stick, etc etc.
Finally, since you'll be leaving the wings bagged at LEAST over night (an extra second night won't hurt), the epoxy will be well and truly cured.
When these guys come out of the bags, I'll show some more pictures, and weigh things so we can see how we came out.
=================================================
Last but not least, a couple of tricks that we DIDN'T use last night for one reason or another.
1) You can be even MORE obsessive, and save even MORE weight by spraying the wingskins with a light coat of hairspray before rolling the epoxy out. You'll find the epoxy a bit easier to spread, and thus use slightly less. We tried, but of all the luck, the hairspray can gave up the ghost. *sigh*
2) If you'll REALLY intense, there's another "layer". On larger wings, or if you're just completely anal about weight, you can put a layer of carbon fiber mat from ACP in between skin and foam. The "trick" here is that the SKIN doesn't get the epoxy, the CF MAT does. You lay IT out on the table, roll epoxy through it, and it, essentially, carries enough epoxy in the fibers to do the job. Had I wanted to spend the extra time, effort, and $ to go this route, we quite possibly could have done all the wings AND tail group in 2 oz or so. Probably not worth it for this "weekend flyer" Cap, but ABSOLUTELY worth it for high end FAI stuff, or what have you.
==================================
There you have it. Wing Bagging 101
This obviously isn't the only way to do things, but it's absolutely a known, proven, reliable way to produce strong, light wings. And that can't be a bad thing.
05-13-2008, 08:50 AM
#28
RE: Lanier 81" Cap 232
Lookin good so far. I've built two of these kits in the past and one is still not finished. Don't know if I'll ever get it done. If you build it stock, the 3W 55I is a great motor. This kit needs a 4 pound motor to ballance if you don't lighten up the tail a bit. And that is using a pull-pull on the rudder.
05-13-2008, 09:03 AM
#29
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RE: Lanier 81" Cap 232
Going with the DL-50 myself. We'll see where the CG is as things come together. Between:
1) Not sheeting the bottom
2) Using CG balsa on the tail feathers
3) Pull-Pull rudder
4) Using the lightest sheeting in the kit for the turtledeck
I'm HOPING I've knocked at least a bit of weight out of this thing's butt.
Won't surprise me, however, if I wind up with some weight in the nose...we'll see.
==============================================
Quick update on the wings:
Rather...I guess...no update. They're still in bags. *heh* No need to have kept them there this long, but life keeps happening to both me and my expert...so haven't gotten over there to get them yet. HOPEFULLY I'll lay hands on them today.
1) Not sheeting the bottom
2) Using CG balsa on the tail feathers
3) Pull-Pull rudder
4) Using the lightest sheeting in the kit for the turtledeck
I'm HOPING I've knocked at least a bit of weight out of this thing's butt.
Won't surprise me, however, if I wind up with some weight in the nose...we'll see.
==============================================
Quick update on the wings:
Rather...I guess...no update. They're still in bags. *heh* No need to have kept them there this long, but life keeps happening to both me and my expert...so haven't gotten over there to get them yet. HOPEFULLY I'll lay hands on them today.
05-13-2008, 01:21 PM
#30
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RE: Lanier 81" Cap 232
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand....WE HAVE WINGS!
Picked up the wings and stabs today, fresh out of the bags.
First, an idea of JUST how pretty the stuff from National Balsa is:
And now, of course, the important part...WHAT DO THEY WEIGH?!?!? Inquiring minds want to know:
Yep. 30.9 oz...less than 2 lbs...for the entire set, wings and stabs.
With that number, toss in:
35oz fuse
55o DL-50
Roughly a pound each for radio, covering, remaining "stock" (LE, TE, etc)
10 1/2 lbs.
Obviously, that doesn't include tank, or gear, or wing tube, cowl...etc...but this plane seems VERY doable in the 14 lb range now.
Sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeet.
Picked up the wings and stabs today, fresh out of the bags.
First, an idea of JUST how pretty the stuff from National Balsa is:
And now, of course, the important part...WHAT DO THEY WEIGH?!?!? Inquiring minds want to know:
Yep. 30.9 oz...less than 2 lbs...for the entire set, wings and stabs.
With that number, toss in:
35oz fuse
55o DL-50
Roughly a pound each for radio, covering, remaining "stock" (LE, TE, etc)
10 1/2 lbs.
Obviously, that doesn't include tank, or gear, or wing tube, cowl...etc...but this plane seems VERY doable in the 14 lb range now.
Sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeet.
05-13-2008, 08:20 PM
#32
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RE: Lanier 81" Cap 232
ORIGINAL: Nogyro
You can bag for me anyday!!
You can bag for me anyday!!
Seriously, been tellin' ya man...faster, easier, lighter, and stronger than built-up wings. Figure the templates took me an hour maybe, making the skins another 2-3, and then an hour from mixing epoxy to bagged...so, what...4-5 hours, then wait a couple nights? Beats the **** out of jigs and tabs and squares and such ANY day.
05-17-2008, 08:57 PM
#34
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RE: Lanier 81" Cap 232
Very productive couple of days....
Decided to go with a 2-piece cowl, using a lap joint. Should be able to leave the bottom on and just remove the top if access is needed to the engine. So, yesterday, got the lap joint engineered (pictures available on request), and everything seems to fit well. Shot the whole thing with some primer last night as well, and got the paint done today.
Canopy is "nearly" finished...just some trimming to do on the frame, and it should be done.
Also picked up the CF landing gear (Bolly F3A Long) at the LHS, and got them primed and painted.
The biggest bulk of the progress, however, came on the wings. Left wing is DONE, save for aileron linkage. All edges/caps on/ribs on, covered, servo mounted, aileron hinged, hinges curing as I type. All that's left is to obtain and install the aileron linkage, and drill/tap the bolt holes, which I won't do until i have the tail feathers on and can set the incidence.
The right wing has seen some progress as well. It's finish sanded, and the leading edge is installed and sanded to shape. Should be able to get it to the same state as the left wing tomorrow, and MAY even get to some tail feathers.
*whew* Pizza and a cold beverage await.
Decided to go with a 2-piece cowl, using a lap joint. Should be able to leave the bottom on and just remove the top if access is needed to the engine. So, yesterday, got the lap joint engineered (pictures available on request), and everything seems to fit well. Shot the whole thing with some primer last night as well, and got the paint done today.
Canopy is "nearly" finished...just some trimming to do on the frame, and it should be done.
Also picked up the CF landing gear (Bolly F3A Long) at the LHS, and got them primed and painted.
The biggest bulk of the progress, however, came on the wings. Left wing is DONE, save for aileron linkage. All edges/caps on/ribs on, covered, servo mounted, aileron hinged, hinges curing as I type. All that's left is to obtain and install the aileron linkage, and drill/tap the bolt holes, which I won't do until i have the tail feathers on and can set the incidence.
The right wing has seen some progress as well. It's finish sanded, and the leading edge is installed and sanded to shape. Should be able to get it to the same state as the left wing tomorrow, and MAY even get to some tail feathers.
*whew* Pizza and a cold beverage await.
05-18-2008, 08:50 PM
#35
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RE: Lanier 81" Cap 232
I built and flew a Lanier CAP 6-7 years ago. Like most CAP's, the Lanier CAP tends to build tail heavy. I built my CAP completely stock, according to the plans, but it came in at 17lbs, which was about 1 to 1.5lb too heavy. Here's a couple of thoughts for you: (a) the Lanier plans showed 2 rudder servo's in the tail (push-push arrangement)-switch to a single rudder servo mounted under the canopy and use a pull/pull arrangement; (b) eliminate all balsa sheeting on the bottom of the fuse, aft of the wing-leave the aft fuse bottom unsheeted and simply Monocote over the open bottom; (c) reduce the number of stringers used in the aft turtledeck. You really only need the top stringer and 1 on each side; (d) don't use the supplied balsa sheeting for the aft turtledeck. Instead, go buy some 1/64th light ply and use it instead-much lighter and much easier to bend to the turtledeck shape; (e) take a router and slightly increase the size of the lightening holes in the fuse, aft of the wing. You can easily take another 1/8" off all around the full edge of the lightening holes. Buy a lightweight tailwheel-carbon fiber is probably the way to go.
Also, while you are at it, you should use a Forstner bit and put lightening holes in all fuse formers. All the fuse formers are very beefy and lightening holes won't hurt structural integrity one bit. Even with these mods, you will probably have to put your batteries as far forward as possibleand you might well have to add noseweight. At 17lbs, my plane still flew well at cruising speeds-slow speed characteristics were problematic. I met guys who were very disciplined about weight with their Lanier CAPs and their planes came in around 14lbs-but these were exceptional builders. Most people using a 50cc engine came in around 15-16lbs. At 15lbs, the Lanier CAP is a real joy.
The "plan" CG is right in the middle of wing tube. For most people, this is too far aft. I found that moving the CG about 1/2" FORWARD of the wing tube gave me the best flying characteristics. If your CAP "porpoises" while in level flight, this is a sure sign your CG is too far aft and you are tail heavy. Move weight forward in small increments until the "porpoising" disappears. With respect to control throws, start with the "plan" throws-and be especially mindful of the elevator. The elevator on this plane is very large and elevator authority is immense. You don't need much throw, I found the plan throws to be about right-I'd also start with 35% expo to smooth it out. Be careful using elevator on your landing approaches-the elevator here has so much authority it can easily "balloon" your landing approaches. Speaking of landing, I replaced the supplied aluminum landing gear with a fiberglass LG from TNT. The fiberglass gear is heavier than the supplied aluminum gear, but since the LG is forward of the CG, the extra weight will help you get the CG moved forward.
The Lanier CAP can be a really nice plane. It will take some practice on slow flight characteristics-especially landing approaches. Basic aerobatics are just terrificloops, spins, and knive edges are just great. Have fun,.....WarpedWing.
Also, while you are at it, you should use a Forstner bit and put lightening holes in all fuse formers. All the fuse formers are very beefy and lightening holes won't hurt structural integrity one bit. Even with these mods, you will probably have to put your batteries as far forward as possibleand you might well have to add noseweight. At 17lbs, my plane still flew well at cruising speeds-slow speed characteristics were problematic. I met guys who were very disciplined about weight with their Lanier CAPs and their planes came in around 14lbs-but these were exceptional builders. Most people using a 50cc engine came in around 15-16lbs. At 15lbs, the Lanier CAP is a real joy.
The "plan" CG is right in the middle of wing tube. For most people, this is too far aft. I found that moving the CG about 1/2" FORWARD of the wing tube gave me the best flying characteristics. If your CAP "porpoises" while in level flight, this is a sure sign your CG is too far aft and you are tail heavy. Move weight forward in small increments until the "porpoising" disappears. With respect to control throws, start with the "plan" throws-and be especially mindful of the elevator. The elevator on this plane is very large and elevator authority is immense. You don't need much throw, I found the plan throws to be about right-I'd also start with 35% expo to smooth it out. Be careful using elevator on your landing approaches-the elevator here has so much authority it can easily "balloon" your landing approaches. Speaking of landing, I replaced the supplied aluminum landing gear with a fiberglass LG from TNT. The fiberglass gear is heavier than the supplied aluminum gear, but since the LG is forward of the CG, the extra weight will help you get the CG moved forward.
The Lanier CAP can be a really nice plane. It will take some practice on slow flight characteristics-especially landing approaches. Basic aerobatics are just terrificloops, spins, and knive edges are just great. Have fun,.....WarpedWing.
05-19-2008, 06:25 AM
#36
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RE: Lanier 81" Cap 232
WW,
I SWEAR I've seen that exact post from you SOMEWHERE.
(Mostly because I've done roughly half those things BECAUSE I read that post *heh*)
In either event, I'm shooting for the 14 lbs range, which looks quite doable...so, even if I'm a full POUND over that, I still ouoght to be in the "at 15 lbs it flies great!" range.
I SWEAR I've seen that exact post from you SOMEWHERE.
(Mostly because I've done roughly half those things BECAUSE I read that post *heh*)
In either event, I'm shooting for the 14 lbs range, which looks quite doable...so, even if I'm a full POUND over that, I still ouoght to be in the "at 15 lbs it flies great!" range.
05-20-2008, 01:26 PM
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RE: Lanier 81" Cap 232
More progress
Picked up the electrical system components yesterday...batt, regulator, switches, etc...tested everything, ready to go.
Got the LE/TE/Caps on the right wing, got the aileron cut. Have started covering today.
Also piced up aileron linkage components today
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand
Fred X brought the DL-50 today.
Picked up the electrical system components yesterday...batt, regulator, switches, etc...tested everything, ready to go.
Got the LE/TE/Caps on the right wing, got the aileron cut. Have started covering today.
Also piced up aileron linkage components today
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand
Fred X brought the DL-50 today.
05-20-2008, 06:39 PM
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RE: Lanier 81" Cap 232
Another quick update:
Both wings covered, aileron linkage installed. As soon as the wing bolt holes are drilled and tapped (which won't happen until after the stabs are installed), then the wings will be flight ready.
As a bit of a "stand back and admire" moment, the Cap was 'wings on" this evening for the first time. Many smiles and Tim Allen-esque grunts of satisfaction ensued.
Both wings covered, aileron linkage installed. As soon as the wing bolt holes are drilled and tapped (which won't happen until after the stabs are installed), then the wings will be flight ready.
As a bit of a "stand back and admire" moment, the Cap was 'wings on" this evening for the first time. Many smiles and Tim Allen-esque grunts of satisfaction ensued.
05-20-2008, 07:26 PM
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RE: Lanier 81" Cap 232
Guys,
I just picked up this thread and wanted to give you my experiences. I built this kit when it first came out several years ago. Please listen to Warped Wing! The CG is definitely tail heavy! I built mine exactly per the plan's CG and could not get it on the ground, first flight. I moved the CG forward 1/2 inch and it's still a handful. He's right about the slow speed flight. It will tip stall easily.
Don't know about the new kit, but here's some advice. Mine showed no right engine thrust. With 50 years in the hobby, I should have known better, but... It must have at least 2-3 degrees. Even with that, I had to mix rudder to throttle to get it to stay straight, especially during landing.
My stab was only glued to the top of the fuselage. It won't stay on! I was very lucky to find mine loose just in time. Re-gluing did not help. I finally used flying wires under the stab and it stayed on.
I lost my canopy twice during early flights. The wooden mounts will split. I finlly used alum. L brackets threaded to recieve the mounting bolts and it never came loose.
Use dams and cooling baffles in the cowling. I used a Brison 2.4 and had over heat problems. Plugged one inlet and it worked. My buddy just bought and is flying the DL-50. Awesome engine! You'll love it!
I used multiple radio mixing and minimum elevator throws to get it tamed. But, it finally became a nice flying airplane. It does not fly like an Extra, so be very careful until you get it all mixed and trimmed.
Paul
I just picked up this thread and wanted to give you my experiences. I built this kit when it first came out several years ago. Please listen to Warped Wing! The CG is definitely tail heavy! I built mine exactly per the plan's CG and could not get it on the ground, first flight. I moved the CG forward 1/2 inch and it's still a handful. He's right about the slow speed flight. It will tip stall easily.
Don't know about the new kit, but here's some advice. Mine showed no right engine thrust. With 50 years in the hobby, I should have known better, but... It must have at least 2-3 degrees. Even with that, I had to mix rudder to throttle to get it to stay straight, especially during landing.
My stab was only glued to the top of the fuselage. It won't stay on! I was very lucky to find mine loose just in time. Re-gluing did not help. I finally used flying wires under the stab and it stayed on.
I lost my canopy twice during early flights. The wooden mounts will split. I finlly used alum. L brackets threaded to recieve the mounting bolts and it never came loose.
Use dams and cooling baffles in the cowling. I used a Brison 2.4 and had over heat problems. Plugged one inlet and it worked. My buddy just bought and is flying the DL-50. Awesome engine! You'll love it!
I used multiple radio mixing and minimum elevator throws to get it tamed. But, it finally became a nice flying airplane. It does not fly like an Extra, so be very careful until you get it all mixed and trimmed.
Paul
05-20-2008, 07:41 PM
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RE: Lanier 81" Cap 232
Thanks for the input, Paul!
I've seen enough folks talk about the CG issue that I'm already planning on STARTING 1//2" or so in front of the plans' suggestion.
As for the slow speed flight, eh...Caps aren't notorious for liking slow speeds ANYWAY, though the light weight should help with that a bit.
I abhor right thrust in ANY airplane...just absolutely despise it. So, while I appreciate the insight, I'm going to go against the grain on this one. *heh*
Must admit, I haven't dug deeply yet to see how it'll attach, precisely. I THINK there's a "retainer" now in the kit of some sort. I'll definitely keep eyes peeled here though. Thanks.
Yeah, wasn't real happy with the engineering there. I doubled up on the wooden tabs, and triangle stocked them. Nice to know my concern was probably justified.
This one to me has almost always been a case of "how much do you feel like hacking up a cowl?" vs "how much air do you want?" Experience suggests that this one probably has enough inlet, but will need a LOT of outlet to make it effective...resulting in a pretty seriously hacked up cowl. Obviously, your solution of ducting and baffles would work as well...just going to have to see what I get out of this DL-50, and how much cutting vs ducting there'll be to do.
Good heads-up...I'll keep it in mind.
=================================
Thanks again for the insights, Paul. Hope you'll forgive me if I don't take ALL of them to heart...each pilot's different, I guess, and we all like/dislike different behaviour and traits in our airplanes. *heh* Just know it's not "disrespect", just decision to risk going "against the grain" in some cases, and willingness to eat crow if I'm wrong. *heh*
ORIGINAL: pmw
I just picked up this thread and wanted to give you my experiences. I built this kit when it first came out several years ago. Please listen to Warped Wing! The CG is definitely tail heavy! I built mine exactly per the plan's CG and could not get it on the ground, first flight. I moved the CG forward 1/2 inch and it's still a handful. He's right about the slow speed flight. It will tip stall easily.
I just picked up this thread and wanted to give you my experiences. I built this kit when it first came out several years ago. Please listen to Warped Wing! The CG is definitely tail heavy! I built mine exactly per the plan's CG and could not get it on the ground, first flight. I moved the CG forward 1/2 inch and it's still a handful. He's right about the slow speed flight. It will tip stall easily.
As for the slow speed flight, eh...Caps aren't notorious for liking slow speeds ANYWAY, though the light weight should help with that a bit.
Don't know about the new kit, but here's some advice. Mine showed no right engine thrust. With 50 years in the hobby, I should have known better, but... It must have at least 2-3 degrees. Even with that, I had to mix rudder to throttle to get it to stay straight, especially during landing.
My stab was only glued to the top of the fuselage. It won't stay on! I was very lucky to find mine loose just in time. Re-gluing did not help. I finally used flying wires under the stab and it stayed on.
I lost my canopy twice during early flights. The wooden mounts will split. I finlly used alum. L brackets threaded to recieve the mounting bolts and it never came loose.
Use dams and cooling baffles in the cowling. I used a Brison 2.4 and had over heat problems. Plugged one inlet and it worked. My buddy just bought and is flying the DL-50. Awesome engine! You'll love it!
I used multiple radio mixing and minimum elevator throws to get it tamed. But, it finally became a nice flying airplane. It does not fly like an Extra, so be very careful until you get it all mixed and trimmed.
=================================
Thanks again for the insights, Paul. Hope you'll forgive me if I don't take ALL of them to heart...each pilot's different, I guess, and we all like/dislike different behaviour and traits in our airplanes. *heh* Just know it's not "disrespect", just decision to risk going "against the grain" in some cases, and willingness to eat crow if I'm wrong. *heh*
05-20-2008, 09:00 PM
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RE: Lanier 81" Cap 232
ORIGINAL: gboulton
Thanks for the input, Paul!
Just know it's not "disrespect", just decision to risk going "against the grain" in some cases, and willingness to eat crow if I'm wrong. *heh*
Thanks for the input, Paul!
Just know it's not "disrespect", just decision to risk going "against the grain" in some cases, and willingness to eat crow if I'm wrong. *heh*
05-20-2008, 11:59 PM
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RE: Lanier 81" Cap 232
ORIGINAL: Nogyro
Eating crow?????????????????? Hummmmmmmmmm, I think we were discussing that this afternoon weren't we? [sm=lol.gif][sm=lol.gif]
Eating crow?????????????????? Hummmmmmmmmm, I think we were discussing that this afternoon weren't we? [sm=lol.gif][sm=lol.gif]
05-22-2008, 07:23 PM
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RE: Lanier 81" Cap 232
Have been working on the h. stab and elevators this afternoon...in the process, have determined that some work will, indeed need to be done to the area where the stab joins the fuse.
The FIRST issue is a rather crazy one...there's not ONE WORD in the instructions about attaching ANY of the tail feathers to the airplane! There's a few pages on BUILDING them...sheeting the stabs, cutting out the elevators/rudder, addings caps and LE/TE strips, etc...and then it says, helpfully, to set the e;evator/rudder aside for sanding and finishing. The instructions then go quite happily on to other aspects of the airplane...and end with some tips on painting and/or covering...there's NOTHING about attaching the tail feathers.
[X(][X(]
I mean, the instructions haven't been "stunning" by any means...but they have, at least, discussed each step of construction. I haven't always agreed with their methods, or order of doing things, but at least each subject is covered. Not this time, however.
So...left with only the plans and some scratch-building experience, I've done some examining/plotting/engineering on the tail section...and, best I can tell, Paul's right...they want you to simply glue the stab right to the top of the fuse sides.
Now, there IS a "stab cover" ABS thing...but it looks like that's going to be more aesthetic...extending the turtledeck back, and "molding" around the vert stab....than structural. Since the vert stab doesn't lock into the horiz stab...in fact, it looks like it's held there by nothing more than gluing it to some 3/32 sheeting [X(]...it looks like the only thing holding the horiz stab on is, as Paul said, being glued to the top of the fuse sides.
SO...haven't really decided what's going to happen back there yet, but it's sure not going to be done per the instructions (well, kinda by definition, since there AREN'T any) or plans...as I come up with a workable solution, I'll be sure to detail it pretty extensively with photos, for others' reference.
The FIRST issue is a rather crazy one...there's not ONE WORD in the instructions about attaching ANY of the tail feathers to the airplane! There's a few pages on BUILDING them...sheeting the stabs, cutting out the elevators/rudder, addings caps and LE/TE strips, etc...and then it says, helpfully, to set the e;evator/rudder aside for sanding and finishing. The instructions then go quite happily on to other aspects of the airplane...and end with some tips on painting and/or covering...there's NOTHING about attaching the tail feathers.
[X(][X(]
I mean, the instructions haven't been "stunning" by any means...but they have, at least, discussed each step of construction. I haven't always agreed with their methods, or order of doing things, but at least each subject is covered. Not this time, however.
So...left with only the plans and some scratch-building experience, I've done some examining/plotting/engineering on the tail section...and, best I can tell, Paul's right...they want you to simply glue the stab right to the top of the fuse sides.
Now, there IS a "stab cover" ABS thing...but it looks like that's going to be more aesthetic...extending the turtledeck back, and "molding" around the vert stab....than structural. Since the vert stab doesn't lock into the horiz stab...in fact, it looks like it's held there by nothing more than gluing it to some 3/32 sheeting [X(]...it looks like the only thing holding the horiz stab on is, as Paul said, being glued to the top of the fuse sides.
SO...haven't really decided what's going to happen back there yet, but it's sure not going to be done per the instructions (well, kinda by definition, since there AREN'T any) or plans...as I come up with a workable solution, I'll be sure to detail it pretty extensively with photos, for others' reference.
05-23-2008, 06:14 AM
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RE: Lanier 81" Cap 232
Gordon,
Don't know if these will help, but here's a few pics off the tail bracing on my old Lanier Giant Stinger that I had. The tail feathers sound like they are fastened to the fuse just like your Cap"s. I used 2-56 wire and bolts. Dubro metal clevis with one side cut off, hole drilled out for bolt. I'm sure you could use CF rod to lighten it a bit. This was back in the old days before CF was used very much.
Don't know if these will help, but here's a few pics off the tail bracing on my old Lanier Giant Stinger that I had. The tail feathers sound like they are fastened to the fuse just like your Cap"s. I used 2-56 wire and bolts. Dubro metal clevis with one side cut off, hole drilled out for bolt. I'm sure you could use CF rod to lighten it a bit. This was back in the old days before CF was used very much.
05-23-2008, 11:42 AM
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RE: Lanier 81" Cap 232
Don't blame ya. After three years of the tail wires on the GS, I swore I would NEVER have another plane with them. They're just a PITA no matter how you set them up. Long term, vibration always seem to get them. [
]
]
05-23-2008, 12:12 PM
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RE: Lanier 81" Cap 232
ORIGINAL: Nogyro
Don't blame ya. After three years of the tail wires on the GS, I swore I would NEVER have another plane with them. They're just a PITA no matter how you set them up. Long term, vibration always seem to get them. []
Don't blame ya. After three years of the tail wires on the GS, I swore I would NEVER have another plane with them. They're just a PITA no matter how you set them up. Long term, vibration always seem to get them. [
]
I sure as HECK ain't gonna fight those battles to put some on that AREN'T on the real plane. *heh*
05-24-2008, 01:57 PM
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RE: Lanier 81" Cap 232
Figures...realized today that I've left the camera in a bag at work.
Have come up with a bit of engineering that should be quite stable, however. Strengthened the 'floor" that the fin glues to, then keyed the fin into the TE of the stab. Fuse sides were then given a bit of extra material to make the saddle's roughly 5/8" wide where the stab sits. Finally, rather than the ABS "fairing" that was supposed to go over the top of the stab...which didn't lock the stab in OR look right anyway...some sheeting will be layered in, and sanded to the right contour, which should both look better AND lock things in nicely.
Things are moving along nicely. Tail feathers are all covered, surfaces hinged. Fin and stab are mounted (stab is curing s I type), and the bottom of the fuse, as well as the underlying red layer of the sides, are covered. Servo extensions and rudder cables are run as well, and the lines have been struck for the motor box/firewall to get the DL mounted up.
Given a bit of luck the next day or so, and with the holiday weekend, MIGHT just get this bird in the air Monday.
Have come up with a bit of engineering that should be quite stable, however. Strengthened the 'floor" that the fin glues to, then keyed the fin into the TE of the stab. Fuse sides were then given a bit of extra material to make the saddle's roughly 5/8" wide where the stab sits. Finally, rather than the ABS "fairing" that was supposed to go over the top of the stab...which didn't lock the stab in OR look right anyway...some sheeting will be layered in, and sanded to the right contour, which should both look better AND lock things in nicely.
Things are moving along nicely. Tail feathers are all covered, surfaces hinged. Fin and stab are mounted (stab is curing s I type), and the bottom of the fuse, as well as the underlying red layer of the sides, are covered. Servo extensions and rudder cables are run as well, and the lines have been struck for the motor box/firewall to get the DL mounted up.
Given a bit of luck the next day or so, and with the holiday weekend, MIGHT just get this bird in the air Monday.
05-24-2008, 08:28 PM
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RE: Lanier 81" Cap 232
Man, am I pleased. Just tickled pink.
Just weighed EVERYTHING I could think of. I mean, EVERYTHING. Save for the top half of fuselage covering, I can't think of a single bolt I missed...and I've been through the list a dozen times:
Fuselage, cowl, motor with ign. and muffler, tail wheel, main wheels, gear, wheelpants, throttle/choke/elevator/rudder servos, pull-pull linkage, elevator linkage, RX w/ batt & switches, wing tube, canopy, gas tank w/ plumbing, wings (rtf), control surfaces w/ hinges.
Final Tally?
13lb 15.2 oz
So, add the top covering, and a few incidentals I may have missed (perhaps a bit of glue here and there or something) and we will ABSOLUTELY be in the low 14's with this plane.
Just weighed EVERYTHING I could think of. I mean, EVERYTHING. Save for the top half of fuselage covering, I can't think of a single bolt I missed...and I've been through the list a dozen times:
Fuselage, cowl, motor with ign. and muffler, tail wheel, main wheels, gear, wheelpants, throttle/choke/elevator/rudder servos, pull-pull linkage, elevator linkage, RX w/ batt & switches, wing tube, canopy, gas tank w/ plumbing, wings (rtf), control surfaces w/ hinges.
Final Tally?
13lb 15.2 oz
So, add the top covering, and a few incidentals I may have missed (perhaps a bit of glue here and there or something) and we will ABSOLUTELY be in the low 14's with this plane.
05-25-2008, 09:17 PM
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RE: Lanier 81" Cap 232
Wellllll
Pretty good chance of flying her tomorrow, weather permitting.
All that remains (to make it flyable...there's some finish work like graphics and such remaining to call it "done") is:
Mount ignition
Mount Rx and Ign switches
Check/set wing incidence, and drill wing bolt holes.
Balance
Test run/tune engine
Normal pre-maiden double-checks...bolts, connectors, etc.
I figure there's maybe a couple more hours to go in the morning, and if the storms give us a break, LHS owner and I will be off to the field for the first flights.
Pretty good chance of flying her tomorrow, weather permitting.
All that remains (to make it flyable...there's some finish work like graphics and such remaining to call it "done") is:
Mount ignition
Mount Rx and Ign switches
Check/set wing incidence, and drill wing bolt holes.
Balance
Test run/tune engine
Normal pre-maiden double-checks...bolts, connectors, etc.
I figure there's maybe a couple more hours to go in the morning, and if the storms give us a break, LHS owner and I will be off to the field for the first flights.