fallingleaf

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Today was the day for the flat spin Dave, and was going to try after my first flight of the day, but alas the below pics speak for themselves. My uncle was with me and was having a fly. Came in to land but was a little hot, so went up to try again but as he throttled up the engine quit, not enough height by that time and unfortunately couldn't quite make it back to the runway so the wheels caught the long grass and she nosed over pretty hard [&o] i was using some of his fuel, same nitro just synthetic as opposed to a castor blend, which was giving different performance (I should have listened to myself and stuck with my fuel as I had the engine running sweet on tuesday). I also should have landed it myself, only because I know how she behaves and her rate of decent. My uncle is a great pilot and the fact that there isn't more damage than there is, is testament to that!

It shouldn't be hard to fix, little recovering. Wings are intact apart from a few holes. One of the spats cracked and would be quite an effort to repair. There is also a little damage to the rudder which would have suffered in the flip. The biggest was the LG being torn out cleanly, and one side of the fuse obviously buckling under the pressure. This actually seems to be a very weak area and I would urge future builders to add some 3/32 or 1/16 ply doubling to the fuse sides (top to bottome) under the wing saddle. I will be putting some in.

Quite pissed actually, not at my uncle at all (if I was landing I would have done no better I am sure!) but just that it happened and the inconveniecne of repairs. He has offered to pay for the repairs which is very nice of him indeed (some new monokote and new spats).

yekots

My Feedback: (1)

Leaf, I am very sorry to see your awesome looking Ultimate in that shape, but I know you will get her back as good as new again soon. When the LG broke off did it go through the bottom wing at all? Do you think nylon bolts would have helped or just made it worse?

I remember years ago after the third flight of my Ultimate my ST 90 decided to quit. I got it back to the strip but they don't dead stick like other airplanes so about 7 feet off the ground it fell like a rock and the gear went through the bottom wing. I was trying to flair it in too much when I should have come in hotter and just put it down. After all the hours I put in it I was pretty upset at just about everything [:@].

Keep us posted on the repair.

fallingleaf

My Feedback: (1)

Thanks Yekots, I am sorry too. As i inspected tonight I saw quite a few of the formers are cracked so the damage structurally is quite significant and those parts will require doubling as a simple glue bond will never be as strong as the original.

The gear didn't rotate up into the wing so the wings came off swell...just 1 or 2 minor patches and the bottom wing will be sweet. The LG block just completely sheared out which I was happy with to be honest. If I had reinforced that area any more it possibly may have taken a whole lot of the fuse with it! having said that I thought the 3 nylon bolts would have given way...they must be quite strong therefore next time I would only use two bolts in the LG to assist with the bolts shearing on a hard landing as opposed to the whole ply retaining block. I will just epoxy it straight back in though so no biggie.

I just should have landed it myself but didn't even think. You become quite acustomed to how these particular bipes behave on approach at low idle (sink rate and stall envelope) and unfamiliarity may have played a small part. Either way its all lessons for next time. I'm just kicking myself as had I made different choices (which I thought about!) it could have been avoided. Grrrrr![:'(]

pandry

I have two Ultimates with damage to the bottom wing resulting from the landing gear rotating backwards after less than ideal landings. Both planes suffered significant damage to the ribs - which are difficult to repair/replace. I've observed that the gear wire (that comes with the kit planes) is very weak and bends easily - even with soft landings on grass. However, the fuselage in the kit planes is not designed to support aluminum gear. I have tried to come up with a design that will hold up using either aluminum or wire gear, but have yet to discover anything that will work. Does anyone have a source for a preformed replacement wire gear using better quality wire? If anyone has come up with a fix for mounting the aluminum gear, please take pictures and forward to me - I'd like to get these two birds flying again. Thanks! [email protected]

fallingleaf

My Feedback: (1)

I just made a 1/4" aircraft ply block to fit where the stock landing gear block would go and it worked a treat with 3 blind nut bolts. In hindsight larger tristock reinforcement would have been better.

I also noticed I was still haveing a few problems in the air with the engine, with a rather hesitant 1/2 - 3/4 throttle. may have been this inferior fuel we had...I just hope it wasn't lean run [] Incidentally how hot is too hot for the 120ax temp wise? The engine is hot to the touch after landing and you would certainly get burn't if you left you fingers there too long.

daveopam

My Feedback: (9)

Leaf, I am so sorry to see the Ult in that shape. I have crashed and repaired quite a few planes over the years. I may not help now, but the plane will go back together faster than you think. At least that is the way it's been for me everytime. As far as the landing. I have way more Ult time then you and I have done the same thing. Dead sticks on these almost always cost you the gear in one way or another. It's easy to tell someone how to dead stick an Ultimate. Making your thumbs do it is another story. Your instict is to try and glide one in or at least get close to the runway. It's just not going to happen unless your 500' up. If you have the large pieces of lite ply you punched out of the fuse during the build. These are great for patching the inside formers.

It could be that you are lean on the high end. However it sounds more like your low end is rich. Most of the time the factory low end setting are rich. While an engine can hesitate from a too lean setting on the low end. Most of the time it is more a stumble from being to rich. It could also be fuel related like you said. I just remember us talking about the hole on the cowl to adjust the low end.

I hope you will post the repair and rebuild pics in this forum. Your thread has a lot of readers that would like to see the Ult back in it's glory.

David

fallingleaf

My Feedback: (1)

Thanks Dave! You are always very constructive and helpful [8D] Anything related to my Ultimate I post here so will definately be posting the repair pics as I go. I want to finish my Ultrasport 60 restoration first (going to look wicked!), and then I will get onto this. Having said that I am sure I will work on both at the same time.

What bugs me is 'patches' in the covering [:@] I notice the details on the ground and patchwork gets me annoyed. FOr that reason I will recover the entire fuse side (the other side is intact). I will also recover the rudder as I will need to pull some covering off to structurally repair it. I will grin and bear the little holes on the wing...my sweet beautiful wing [:'(] Haha!

I had leaned the low end out about a 1/2 turn approx, perhaps I will go a little further when she is all patched up and the 17x6 APC is on there. Its a real shame top flight don't make their props in 17x6 as they look sweet. I have a 16x6 but I feel that would be too little prop and result in too many revs. Regardless, I have learnt some valuable lessons....1) just stick to the fuel you use, it saves time fiddling and ensures reliability 2) land your own planes, then if you crash its your fault and not someone elses 3) no engine thrust = brick with wings (not quite that bad but close!)

alfredbmor

Fallingleaf:
I am sorry to see your Ultimate like that but I am with the others, thinking that it will be fine soon.
When I built mine I considered changing the original wire landing gear for a more durable aluminum one, after a few words with a friend of mine (a great kit builder) I decided to go with the original wire landing gear Why? It was a simple answer, the plane was designed to go with the wire, and if I would go with the aluminum, then I would have to beef the fuse sides to hold a new designed piece of hardwood to accept the aluminum landing gear.
I was aware that the wire is easily bendable and as an old kit, it is designed to fly with less heavier engines (it was designed to fly with a .60) hence in my thoughts, the wire will bend in a few landings (because I am using a considerably larger engine). My friend told me how to reinforce the wire in the case that I would need to do it some day, but he replicated me that it was not necessary at this time, well there are a few differences here, I fly at a paved field, and there is less stress at the landing gear than when you are flying from grass. Secondly, as you said, this plane lands like a brick if you do not have power, therefore even the best landing gear could not handle this situation. Sometimes my plane is landed by a friend of mine (Carlos) which is a great pilot and he use to teach me many tricks and how to bring many kinds of planes easy to land. Carlos is by far a more experienced pilot than I am, but I still feel that my knees shake when ever I am flying my Ultimate, that is the reason why Carlos when is present and able uses to land my Ultimate like a feather. (I wish I could do it the same).
If you ever want to try the original wire landing gear and reinforce it, then this should be a good way to reinforce it:

daveopam

My Feedback: (9)

Alfed, that is a nice set up. In the past I have seen guys take the ULT gear and solder a spring between the two legs as a reinforcement. This helps but the problem with this gear is two fold. It not only flexes up but back. So holding the legs of the gear together wont stop it from flexing back. Another thing when doing this. The gear will try and slide together and when it does it will come out of the slot that holds it pointing down. So if someone tries this, they need to add a forth side to the slot the wire slides into. This will keep the gear from sliding inward.
Leaf when you have it back together try setting the low end with your hot shot(glow driver). Let it idle for about 10 seconds and then put the hot shot on. If the low end is rich, adding the hotshot will increase the idle speed. If you have it lean the RPM will stay constant but slamming the throttle will make it stumble. If it's just right than the idle will not change and it will not stumble advancing the throttle fast. Also keep in mind your engine is not fully broken in. Your settings may change a little after the first gallon of fuel goes through it. After your hard landing also check the clunk in the tank. Whenever I did this to my Ult the clunk would flip to the front of the tank.

David

alfredbmor

Thanks David, I brought those pictures from the 1.60 Great Planes Ultimate forums, it looks like they have a problem with the stiffness of the landing gear, I brought it because I wanted to make a comparison when using the original wire landing gear instead the aluminum one.

fallingleaf

My Feedback: (1)

Thanks guys, I think the engine must be broken in Dave as I have used a gallon of fuel through it now. I did notice the hot shoe method works quite well as I saw another dude tuning his engine in that manner, so I will remeber this when I get round to it.

Crash Campbell

Hi Mark, Dave et al,

My Ultimate is no more![&o] I have lived up to my avatar!!. No one to blame but myself. In a cross wind landing I drifted too far to the right, (our strip has six strands of barb wire fence each side to keep the cattle and horses out as it is a "full scale field" and the owner has both cattle, horses and full size turbo prop toys), I went to full power and instead or turning left I turned right. The wheels caught the top strand and the rest of the story and the bipe are history. You would have thought with six strands there would be six pieces. There are ten, all packages of splinters held together with the remains of the moneycoat. Still at least the motor, servos and Rx survived.

Good luck with the rebuild Mark. I don't think I will go through the drama of trying to find another CG kit and will probably resort to the World Models ARF to keep an Ultimate in the hanger. I'm still working on the Ultrasports 1000 Kit and a couple of other unfinished projects.

Cheers,

Crash Campbell aka Colin

Mark PS Thanks for the NZ ski info.

fallingleaf

My Feedback: (1)

Ah sorry to hear that Colin, least a dingo didn't run off with the engine after the crash That is a real shame. You could order one from tower hobbies but I imagine it would be expensive with current exchange rates. I would likely eye up a GP Ultimate 1.60 ARF if the same thing happended to me. Expensive though Nitro models do a really nice ultimate of similar size to the CG.
I hope the ski trip goes well...should be a great season this year as its starting to cool off already! Post a some pics of the US1000 when done or near completion, I am recovering my US60, really planes those whatever the size.

yekots

My Feedback: (1)

Hey leaf hows it going? Well I got my aerobat out a few times over the past few weeks and realize that I am still able to fly , I forgot just how wicked that little thing could be. Now I have the bug back big time so I decided to start tearing into my Ultimate to check it out and change a few things from original build back in 93. I also took my ST 90 apart to check it all out and it looks almost brand new. I don't like the linkage on elevators since it was the original push rod configuration, my question to you is how did you set yours up?

Oh, and by the way, the measurements that you and Daveopam gave me on the landing gear were exact. I made one up at work with some scrap 1/8" aluminum and it fits perfectly. Thanks Leaf and Dave!

Anyone out there who has this kit and would like to give or sell their plans I am interested. I can't seem to find mine, but of course that was 16 years ago [X(].

daveopam

My Feedback: (9)

I think I have an extra set. Let me look and see if I can find them this weekend. If I can, a little postage would be all the payment needed.

David

fallingleaf

My Feedback: (1)

Cheers Yetoks, no problems glad to help. Mine is still in its previously crashed state. Just have to find time to get off my butt and fix it...its winter here now so not much motivation flying wise to get her done, but I will get there!

yekots

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If you find them Dave just send me an email with your address and I will send down a pre paid large envelope for it.

Thanks a lot Dave!

yekots

My Feedback: (1)

Leaf I read back through your thread here and you said that you put servos in the tail for the elevators. Can you go into some detail on how you did it? Did you use standard servos or smaller?

fallingleaf

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I use the elevator slot which are cut into the fuse sides as a gauge and enlarged them downwards to accept some standard sized servos. Others have used hi torque mini servos as well with no problem. Just make sure they have some torque!! In my case I also added some basswood vertical stingers where the servos screws go through. This was to get more 'bite' with the screws but also to increse torsional stiffness in the tailplane (to compensate for have a large hole in the fuse side for the servos). Im pretty sure there are some pics there if you lok through the thread.

yekots

My Feedback: (1)

Yep, you are right, posts #118 and #119, guess I should have looked closer, thanks. I am still undecided as to how I want to set it up, I like your setup but not sure I want that much stuff sticking out back there. I am noticing that the years of hanging on the wall have taken it's toll on certain areas of the plane so I am having to dig into it a little further than I expected. When I am done though I will have piece of mind launching it.

I was talking with my brother in law tonight and he has been out of flying for a few years and is getting rid of his stuff. He is trying to talk me into his Space Walker and I am almost thinking about taking it on. Only problem, I don't think it will fit into my pickup very easy [].

Thanks for the help Leaf.

fallingleaf

My Feedback: (1)

No worries, the servos sticking that far out is due to them being the standard size. You could move them towards the nose more, or go the mini servo way. To be honest though, when flying I barely notice them and if you do a good clean install they look no different/

NM2K

My Feedback: (14)

Or, one could use Hitec's shallow depth aileron servos for the elevator and rudder functions in the CGM Ultimate Biplane. I've had great service from mine. I "think" those were HS-77 servos. Been a while since I've looked at them, so I may have the number wrong. I'm not sure that they would have the torque necessary for 3D flying with the huge surface excursions necessary for that mode of flying, but normal aerobatic flying should be easily accomplished.


Ed Cregger

Cyberfyn

Got to love the Goldberg plans. I blew mine up to 1/3 scale and with 3W 60cc gas power. And it builds and flys just as well! Was really sad to sell it on earlier this year, but I'm looking to build an 80" warbird (P51, Spit or 109)





Ian F.

yekots

My Feedback: (1)

Sweet bird Cyberfyn! I hope you got quite a bit for it when you sold it cause it looks to be worth it. I would love to have that bird, the smoke is awesome! What smoke system did you have on it?

Worked on mine for a few hours today and still noticing areas that need a little work. I can't believe that when I built this thing 16 years ago that I did some of the things I did. Bad glue joints, linkages and just all around workmanship. I need to go back in time and kick myself in the butt for some of this .

Cyberfyn

Yeah, I know what you mean. I repaired one of my old birds recently and couldn't believe the mess it was. Still flying though

I used a Tindel EvoII smoke system. Great little self contained unit that is proportional to the throttle. I did get a great price for it, But you do get attached don't you

Ian F.