Gray Beard

My Feedback: (-1)

You should be seeing bad wood in A lot of kits today, not just CG.

bronicabill

My Feedback: (30)

Just to bring everyone up to speed on the latest developments, Mary Ann at Great Planes contacted me and offered to replace all of the bad parts and/or defective wood for free. Since I had already do so myself and was past that point, she offered up some other options which I have taken her up on.

To the credit of Great Planes, it appears that their generally great customer service is going to help out buyers of CG kits until they can get the kit and wood problems resolved! Let's hope so anyway, since the CG models are some of the best flying planes out there.

ChuckW

Great Planes customer service is nothing short of amazing. Not only have they helped me out with the rare issues that I've had with their products, they have gone above and beyond what most people would expect of them. Maybe they'll get the Goldberg stuff back on track. I really want to build a Chipmunk one of these days.

My experience with Horizon Hobby has been similar.

Then there is Sig... I just received a brand-new Hog Bipe kit. I opened the box to check the contents and guess what I saw???? Fiberglass wheel pants! Not two cheesy plastic halves that don't fit together right but actual fiberglass pants that just need some painting and mounting. That means I won't have to order the pants separately now. I am very pleased.

Gray Beard

My Feedback: (-1)

I have only used Tower/ Great Planes service twice and both times if I said it sucked I would be being kind. I haven't used Tower/GP for anything in years for anything for myself. I did send my students there quite A bit when they were first starting out because they had A great stock of beginners supplys all in one spot. Today I use one of my LHS mostly but he is A GP dealer too and matches Towers price.
Maybe things have changed for the better over the years?? Today the cost of shipping keeps me from trying them again.

jship

My Feedback: (4)

I’m sorry, I just find no excuse for bad wood in a kit. If You got bad wood, put it in a ARF were You can hide it (and I won‘t buy it). Just don’t put it in My kit.

I have never had even poor quality wood in a Sig kit.

john

alfredbmor

I have had built only one kit from CG, I bought from Tower, when I opened the box I did an inventory foundind that there were some missing pieces, I contacted Carl Goldber and they sent the parts, in the building process I found that some pieces just did not fit and the four leading edges of the wings came drastically warped so I had to put them aside with water and amonia to straighten to an acceptable position. After many fixings I ended with a great performer Ultimate. The planes are well designed but the materials are of a very low quality.

ChuckW

You must have gotten the wrong person on the phone or they've really come a long way. When I had a covering problem on my Skybolt ARF one phone call had a new airframe on my doorstep. Then, I sent them the tail section off of my Cherokee ARF that had separated during flight. My personal opinion is that the design is a little flawed but who am I to say? They could have easily told me that I screwed up and made a good case for it. What did they do? They sent me a brand new ARF free of charge. I wasn't expecting anything except maybe a discount on another purchase or something at the most.

As for shipping, Tower is always offering free shipping deals. If you are a member of their super save club, the deals are even better. Best part is that they have a distribution center in Reno. Most stuff can be to your area or mine in one day if the order is placed early enough. I'd really like to support the LHS but they don't show a lot of interest in supporting local flyers so that leaves little alternative.

I sent the Spektrum receiver out of that Cherokee to Horizon Hobby explaining that the receiver had not caused the crash but I wanted to check it out for damage. I asked them to send me a repair estimate. A couple weeks later I got my receiver back with an invoice showing check out and repairs for $0. They did not have to do that. I was the one who crashed the thing. of course I did tell everyone at the field and now I'm telling the story on here so maybe that freebie will pay off for them.

I wish companies in other industries treated customers that well.

I probably should have called them on the Tiger-2 kit but I got such a good deal on it I figured it wasn't a huge loss to just toss it out. I did keep a lot of the good wood, landing gear and other good hardware.

bipeguy03

I'm am getting sick of hearing the same old thing, its like a broken record any more, KITS ARE KITS, WOOD IS WOOD! arf quality isnt any better its just diffrent, I have a GP 1/4 scale RV-4 and the covering fell off the first time I ran the engine, My 2 CG ARFs, and my GP Sportser look like they were glued togeather with hot glue, and all the chineese crap that comes over here is just that.

If you want to bash kit quality and praise how great barfs are do it on the ARF forum not in the kit building forum. If you don't have the time to build I understand that, but don't bash kits becuase you need to take time to make it right, thats just called building! Putting an arf togeather is'nt BUILDING it called BOLTING.

Sorry if I upset anyone but thats just the way I feel!

James

Gray Beard

My Feedback: (-1)

Dang James, don't hold back, tell us how you really feel. I'm still looking for that scratch build!! I look every couple of days. ARFs are one of the reasons for the lack of good wood, if you have never gotten any bad wood in A SIG kit then you haven't built enough of them. I replace A lot of wood from SIG kits. There is now A high demand for Balsa and you are going to find bad wood in any makers kits these days, stop *****ing and buy some bulk wood like most builders do, your going to need it.
Chuck, my problems with Tower/GP was about 8 years ago. First problem was over an OS 70FS I sent in for service, I decided maybe they hired the brain dead at that time. Then I sent in my Hobbico Accu-Cycle that didn't discharge from day one to be checked out, that's when they removed all doubt from my mind and I started going to better places for service and haven't gone back to TH sense. With all the good people to work with why bother fooling around with the terminally stupid. Like I said, this was about 8 years ago so things may have changed but they lost me forever. I used to spend A lot of money there too. I have gone over to Horizon when I needed new chargers and what not and had great service. I also sent back some 2.4 stuff for one of my students and Horizon sent me back all new stuff, no questions asked. Good folks to work with!! Well, other then those MDS engines, I still have A couple of those I'm stuck with.

NM2K

My Feedback: (14)

There are probably a few people on RCU who seem to get along with MDS engines and would take them off your hands, were you so disposed. I have their .48, bought it on an already built Four Star 40, but I haven't gotten around to running it as yet. With any luck, I'll sell the whole set up and get my money back. I'm into larger models now that I'm saddled with aging vision.

Oddly enough, after dealing with the Tower conglomerate since its beginnings, when all you received from them was a photo copied type written listing of prices (remember those days?), I haven't had to deal with their service departments at all. Like you, I spend a lot of money in the hobby. That's not to say that you didn't have problems with them. I'm usually picky when it comes to electronics and engines. I seldom buy any house brand electronics from anyone. I've only had one engine problem with OS (peeling liner in an OS32F ABC (their name, not mine). The engine was running so good that I just continued to use it as it was for several years.

I haven't had any problems with Horizon either. Good folks to deal with. That's easy to say when all of the stuff you have bought from them met or exceeded my expectations. Ditto Tower.

Some of the ARFs out there today are garbage. Most ARFs today are much better than ARFs were just a short time back. I pick and choose. Sometimes I return ARFs that I feel that don't measure up. Sometimes I sell them off and once in a while I'll find one worthy of flying.

Building has become an enjoyable part of the hobby for me, once again. I'd build R/C models even if I didn't fly them any longer. That is a big change for me. I used to build mostly because I wanted to fly and no one built the models to my specs when hired. Now it is fun.

To just go out and bang around, flying willy-nilly to relieve stress, the ARFs are a good investment. However, to enjoy flying something you designed/constructed, scratch building is still the best way to go, as everyone on this forum knows. The only kits that I have been somewhat satisfied with were the original Bridi kits, the early GP kits (haven't built one since 1992), the Svenson kits, some Ben Buckle kits and a few of the later Sterling kits. The latest Sig kits are good (I couldn't stand the earlier ink printed kits).

I have managed to collect quite a few of the Bridi and GP versions of Bridi kits. I'm going to make templates from them and then duplicate the plans (for personal use - of course). That should keep me busy until the reaper comes knocking at the door.


Ed Cregger

bipeguy03

Gene, I agree! BUY WOOD IN BULK! any plane you build is going to need some somwere, and even a barf is going to need a repair sooner or later.

as for the cusomer service of greatplanes. I cannot disagree more with some of the folks on here, I pretty much got called a liar when the cheapkote came off my RV, it took a week of BSing on the phone just to get a few rolles of monokote from them, and now look, I gotta recover a barf. and my other 3 break every time I fly them.

I have presonally built 4 CG kits, 4 GP kits, and 2 sig kits and they are all the same, they are kits. I've scratch built 3 and right now I'm in a toss up of building either a Lanier Cap or scratch building a Mark Fallandy Starduser. and still its all the same.

The biggest reason kits are alittle down in qaulity anymore is the popularity of barfs. And lets face it in the market world, no one cares any more, its all about:

How cheap can we make it
How fast can we make it
How many can we sell
Who will buy it
and How much can we overcharge for it.

as for the plastic. it doesnt matter how makes it, your pretty much going to have to buy new anyway, even the ARFs, they may be Fiberglass but they are still too thin and brittle. and if you scratch you have 2 choices, buy one or make your own.

what this all boils down to is two things, time and laziness. IF you don't have time to build the cool, but if ya just don't whant to do things right don't blame anyone but yourself.

Agian sorry if this upsets anyone, but its just my opinion.

bronicabill

My Feedback: (30)

And with an attitude like yours I hope you get crap wood from now on in all of your kits. My original post had nothing to with ARFs; it was about the poor quality of the wood and parts fit in my kit. If I'd wanted to scratch build like I've practically had to do in several areas of this airplane I would have bought plans and my own wood. I didn't. I bought a kit. A kit is supposed to be decent enough quality wood and parts fit that can be taken out of the box and assembled with minimal fussing with the fit. If you disagree with that; tough cr@p! It's what I paid for, and what I didn't get! And it's what I, and most others expect from a kit!

May all of your wood be rock-hard or rotten and full of worm holes. That way you get to make it work anyway just like you like it!

</rant mode off now>

JPMacG

My Feedback: (2)

I built a Tiger 2 and Eagle 2 around 2000 / 2001. They went together nicely without any significant problems and they are both great flying planes. I'm sorry to hear that Goldberg has gone down hill (and this is not the first time I've hear it). I was thinking of building the Chippy. I would build a Sig kit but Sig doesn't have anything that interests me right now.

ChuckW

When did the discussion of ARF quality come into play? The thread is about recent negative experiences with Goldberg kits.

Perhaps I missed something in the thread but I see nobody at all praising the quality of ARF's. Maybe you have the threads confused.

Since this is the KIT BUILDING forum I would think that everyone participating does indeed find time to build. Where do did you see anything said to the contrary? Yes, I agree that assembling an ARF is not the same as building a kit. I think everyone is intelligent enough to figure that out on their own.

Are you sure you are posting your response in the correct thread?

As for my comments about Great Planes customer service I am just stating the facts. They treated me well. The instances cited may have involved ARF's but that does not mean I or anyone else is promoting an ARF over a kit. The statements were simply a discussion in response to Graybeard that perhaps service has improved since his negative experiences. Admittedly it is probably a little off topic but not nearly as off topic as bringing up an ARF vs. kit debate that isn't even present in the thread.

No worries. You can feel however you want and free to express it. Everyone is. I just think you might have misinterpreted the discussion a little. Truth is, I'm actually in somewhat agreement with some what you are saying and probably in disagreement with a little too. So what? We all have fun at this hobby in the end.

bipeguy03

The discussion turned to arfs when it was said that someone was going back to arfs after this build.

As for the Gp service, same as you, Its just the facts, I got treated veary poorly, maybe I just got the wrong guy on the phone but it kinda toasted me on greatplanes.

And again I'm not trying to have an attatude, but it seems any more people are complaining about the norm for kitbuilding, wood can get warped, can have diffrent hardness or grain structure, every CG kit GP kit and Sig kit I've built has had these problums, but its not that hard to make it work, and with the comments on this page it just seems like no one wants to do it anymore.

I do agree that qaulity defanitly should be better, but we have to work with what we have. And if you don't want to deal with it don't build kits. But scratch building can be the same problum, you pay good money for wood, but unless you go to the LHS and select every peice of wood yourself its the same problem.

As I can see I am severly out numberd in my feelings, and some felt it was nessicary be be rude and try to curse me for my feelings so I will leave this thread alone, I've said my peace, so I'll just go back to building my kit.

James

bronicabill

My Feedback: (30)

For the record, if you'd ever built a kit from Yoshioka, Pilot, or MK, you'd know exactly what I was complaining about in my original post that started this thread! I NEVER had bad wood, warped wood, or wood that was the wrong density for its intended use from any of those kit makers, and all the parts fit with minimal use of sandpaper! In addition, if I had been able to make the wood work that came from my kit it wouldn't have been a big deal, but when I already paid over $150.00 for a kit (that I could have easily gotten a similar model from GP for $50.00 less), THEN have to spend almost $40.00 more to replace all of the bad, completely UNUSABLE wood, that is a problem! On top of that you come along with the attitude of "that's just the way it is, so deal with it"... well, that ISN'T just the way it is! At least it shouldn't be! And modelers who pay good money for these things should demand at least a reasonable amount of quality from them, and not settle for trash like you seem to suggest I do!

I was a bit harsh on wishing you bad wood from now on, and for that I apologize. Just don't tell me and others to put our money into garbage and then accept it as "the way it is"! That's why companies put out garbage now... because people put up with it instead of demanding a reasonable level of quality. I would have happily paid $50.00 more for this kit to have avoided all of the frustrations and trips to the LHS for more wood! If the kit mfgs can't provide decent quality materials for the current price, then raise the price enough to cover good materials and avoid all of this mess!

I'm done now.

ChuckW

That's the problem sometimes with this form of communication. It is hard to get across intent or emotion. Things often get taken in a different manner than they were meant to be. I know that's why they have those little smiley face things and stuff but I feel kind of silly using them myself.

Hmmm.... I have one on the board right now too. Sounds like a relaxing idea.

alfredbmor

I agree 100% with bronicabill.
I just do not want to see in the future a new boxed kit that contains a couple of plans and some blasa seeds.

JRO

I have put together many kits and have enjoyed doing it. Last winter I put together a Goldberg Tiger 2. The kit was horrible especially the ribs, I couldn't pin them down without them splitting. I drilled them out and put the wing together on a GP Wing Jig. Also I was missing sheeting for the wings, which Tower Hobbies replaced. Actually the replaced sheeting was nice balsa. I also had a friend of mine build the Goldberg Tiger he also complained about the quality. Once together both the Tiger 2 and the Tiger flew well. I notice that the price of the Tiger 2 has gone from $79.95 to $99.95. I think $79,95 was plenty for the quality of the kit. I still enjoy putting together kits.

8178

My Feedback: (17)

I built a Goldberg Skylark kit in 1966 and as I recall the kit was pretty good.

aerowoof

I have built many goldberg kits,falcon 56,skylark,jr falcon,j-3 cub,gentle lady,electra,eagle and quality nad fit was always good but that was when goldberg was goldberg,you must remmember that they were bought byn lanier and the great planes so no doubt there could be issues from the new owners quality control

bronicabill

My Feedback: (30)

Personally I think that the purchase by GP could be one of the best things to happen to CG kits! First off, they contacted me quickly after I e-mailed them and offered some possible solutions, including the free replacement of all bad wood and parts. I've built a few GP kits in the past, and while they were not the same level of quality as MK, Yoshioka, and Pilot, they were pretty darned good, and with good wood quality and very good to excellent parts fit! Hopefully, given time, they will turn around CG kits and make them good again. Time will tell though...

TexasAirBoss

My Feedback: (22)

Not trying to make excuses, but the demand for balsa wood is bigger than ever now. We are competeing with various industries around the world for balsa, almost exclusively grown in Costa Rica. The cost has gone up and the dollar has fallen 60% in the last 8 years. Some manufacturers might use cheaper grades. Some might charge more. Some may be using reserves. Its only going to get worse. This doesn't explain away defective parts in a kit. But its a problem the kit manufacturers are forced to deal with. And it might cause some one inspecting a kit to give a passing mark and allow it out the door when it really failed.

NM2K

My Feedback: (14)

I had one (out of three) Falcon 56 kits that had really bad wood for the machined leading edges. Remember them? One piece could have been used for beating a bull into submission. It was so bad that I called Goldberg and I had them laughing in no time with my description (those from the Sixties remember the term ugly stick - no, not the model). They couldn't believe that such a piece of wood was in one of their kits, so they asked me to send them back. Meanwhile, they sent two perfect leading edges before I shipped mine back. I'll bet they got one heck of a laugh out of the pieces that I sent back.

I've built Falcon/Skylark 56 models, Senior Falcon (my first "multi" model), their Jr. Falcons and their Anniversary Cub models over the years. They were just fine except for the leading edge pieces mentioned earlier. All flew fantastically. I've always been a Goldberg model fan.

I have to agree with another poster that if Great Planes redoes the kits, they will be improved significantly, based upon past experiences.


Ed Cregger

ericguevara

I am sorry that you had such a bad experiance with your Goldberg Extra 300 bronicabill. It sounds like you managed to get a hold of a "transition" kit. From what I understand sombody tried to phase in the laser cut parts right around the time Goldberg's future was uncertain. I built a Goldberg 300 a little over three years ago, and I would say it was a good kit that went together reasonably well. The real treat though was how it flew. At first I had a O.S. 61FX up front which belive it or not flew it very well, it was a well seasoned 61FX to boot. When I bolted a Evolution 100 up front it was ridiculous! I know several guys who have nothing but good things to say about Goldberg kits. I think that the "empire" buy out of Goldberg will be a good thing if they choose to continue to manufacture the kit. The quality and support should be second to none.