KitBuilder

My brother purchased several magazines for me the other day which was a treat b/c I long ago stopped subscrsibing due to the lack of nuts and bolts type informative and how to articles. Of course I will quickly glance through newstand copies at times and realize again that they're just large advertising mediums these days. One thing jumped out at me..... Anyone irritated with the use of the term "build" when describing ARF assembly? The magazines are no help here as all they cover are ARFs and use the build term rather than something like "assemble". I freely admit that it's picky.. bordering if not full on anal of me to think about this but it's bothersome having started back when if you wanted to fly.. you "built" kits, which I still do.

Don't get me wrong... I fully see the advantages of ARFs and think they're great in terms of bringing new folks in, helping to lower costs in many other areas, ..reducing the obstaclesto getting started, etc, etc. I just get ruffled when you occassionally see coverage of say Top Gun... for instance Matt Chapmans Gorgeous Bipe that took 3 years to "build" or any other kit or scratch build and on the next page someone who "built" a Hangar 9 Cub ARF in 3 evenings complaining b/c he needed to widen the servo cutout 2mm or that pushrods didnt line up exactly. Yeah.... I know I'm living in the past but feel fortunate to have cut my teeth on RCM.

Ok.. I feel better now... apologize for the rant!

noveldoc

My Feedback: (2)

I bailed on ARFdom when I found some person in China had "built" my purchase with a hot glue gun.

Tom

Kaos Rulz

I'm with you Kitbuilding is where it's at!!

dhal22

posting an arf assembly as a 'build thread' annoys me too.

Clay Walters

I've "assembled" three ARF's now. All took a certain degree of "building" and would have been much more difficult if one had never built from kits or scratch before. But mostly, because I too started with kits and plans; I'm very impressed with the quality of workmanship they offer.

Far exceeds my own although I'm not certain regarding durability on all points.

Regards,

Clay

ARUP

I agree! Also, many magazines, month-in month-out, have covershots of arf's piloted by factory pilots wearing their sponsor's shirts emblazoned with their advertising when a kid with his home made airplane would surley suffice to send a mssg that the hobby IS accessible. These current covershots send a mssg that 'arfs' are where it's at'. Building from kits or scratch will never go away but the discovery of such will diminish as will the people 'doing' it due to this! I for one have sent letters to the editors to no avail. Any magazines currently subscribed will expire and not be renewed. The AMA magazine 'comes with the territory' and you cannot option out of it. I would prefer they not send mine to save paper or make it an 'e-magazine' for download at my discretion.

exnordel

I remember about 30 years ago when some of the first ARF's started appearing, I think it may have been a Lanier. The older gys back then talked about how it was going to be the end of kit building, and it kinda was. Today however the quality of ARF's has improved tremendously. I also had one that was obviously assembled with a hot glue gun though....thanks Sig.

We have been complaining about the magazines forever, at least as long as I can remember.

Vince

DavidAgar

My Feedback: (108)

I agree, you build a kit or build from plans, you assemble an ARF. Dave

cold_reboot

My Feedback: (20)

I've also made mention a few times around various posts how annoying an ARF assembly thread is when it's labeled a build. I must admit however, that I do have an ARF in the hangar, a Tower Trainer. I would have built a trainer from a kit (and will probably build a Sig LT at some point), but really didn't want to have to gather up the build from the table and find somewhere to store it's various parts out of harms way to build the trainer. Plus the Tower was $69 bucks. I enjoyed making a new rudder from left over kit material (1/4" Hard Balsa leading edge to give the hinges something to bite with the rest being 1/4" balsa plank left over from a Skyshark FW190) as the thin stock rudder didn't lend itself to accepting the Robart hinges and having sufficient material for the hinges to anchor in to. Had I never started kit building a few years ago I never would have had the confidence to make any kind of modifications or remake something more to my liking. I only wish I had started kit building when more kits were available and the industry wasn't shifting toward ARFs. Luckily we still have a few hold outs and some industrious hobbyists with lasers who take it upon themselves to provide us with the box of wood.

Bax

My Feedback: (11)

All of the ARF model's I've seen did not get manufactured with "hot glue". Yes, the glue came out of a hand-held "gun" or syringe of some sort, but it was not hot-melt glue. In many ARFs, it's a cold-mix glue that has two parts that mix at the nozzle. Other types of glues are RF or microwave cured. With that type of glue, the glued assembly is stuck into a large oven-like device that irradiates it with specific-frequency RF or microwaves. That cures the glue.

Just because an adhesive has a certain "look" to it, you cannot assume it's one kind or another. I've seen epoxy glues that cured to a rubbery consistency that could be mistaken for hot-melt glue. Glue formulations vary widely, depending upon the desired performance. Believe it or not, but some hot-melt adhesives are super strong. They are "melt once, apply, and cure". Once cured, they won't re-melt, and cure to a super-strong bond.

tjones1

I had a early 90's Sig Senior kit with a wood slab cowl with filled-in pieces of wood top/bottom. I modified it by adding ailerons, changed to a tail dragger, changed the wingspan from 78 inches to 81-1/2 inches, added extra front half ribs on leading edge of wings (between each full rib) for more strength, reduced dihedral to 2-1/2 inches, installed wing hold-down boltspush/pull system on enlarged rudder and installed a .82 4-cycle engine. Much of the listed modifications you can not do wit a ARF.

KitBuilder

I'm not complaining about the quality of arfs... and agree.. the quality is very good... more often than not better than I can do myself in terms of covering but I will say I'm a pretty good builder. But I do love showing up with a "build" or ktibash that took a few months to breathe life into and that no one else has. Often I'm the only one with a kit built plane it seems at the field. Heck.. I even built my flight box.... prebuilt was something like $30 and the kit was $25 and I needed to paint and seal it... people said i was crazy. Then again.. they're the same ones who crash their ARFs back into sticks and throw away perfectly good pieces in the trash can. I have a good supply of horns, pushrods, clevises, nuts, bolts, etc. Crazy what people will leave behind! Then again I mowed lawns for a summer to get my first Kraft KP-4A radio back in 77!

Remember when you encountered a problem how you needed to figure a way out of it rather than plunk down some $ to find a manufactured part for that specific issue. Hatch holddowns come to mind ,etc. I loved the hints and tips sections and cunninghams articles on design back then in the mags.

Gray Beard

My Feedback: (-1)

After RCM closed it's doors there were still monthly builds articles in MAN, very basic but they were still there. Problem happened when MAN became a front for nothing but ARFs and you never saw anything said bad about them, it's like that advertising money owned the magazine. I gave MAN the big drop and haven't bought one sense. Not to worry, I still had RC Report. There also became fewer and fewer kit builds but as Gordon said, there were fewer and fewer kits being designed and cut so they have what they have, ARFs. At least RCR told you when they discovered JUNK. Today they are an on line magazine. My neck doesn't allow me to sit at a computer and read a lot though so I don't subscribe. Terms like BUILD when talking about an ARF really does bother me to no end, you assemble an ARF. Today they are even calling ARFs kits?? That bothers me even more. How about this for a pisser, opening up the readers photos in MAN and seeing some smiling fool with his ARF next to a photo of someone that spent the time building his new plane. Or someone that added some decals to there ARF thinking they just did something wonderful and the magazine printed that photo?? That bothers me more then saying Building or Kit when speaking of an ARF. These terms are being forced down peoples throats and younger people are excepting these terms A build isn't an assemble and a kit is a box of wood not a completed plane you just install your gear into. I do assemble ARFs for people and like most of them, I don't have any myself but they are OK for what they are. Magazines are just selling a product these days and collecting advertising dollars. I subscribe to none these days.

KitBuilder

I can see in the future being reduced to plans building which is fine with mine though I haven't "cut" a kit before. There is a DH-2 in RCM plans that has my eye though. I won't have to worry about another showing up at the airstrip from Hangar 9 because of all those "pesky wires". Might be to much of a "build" - at the field that is, for the ARFers.

Augie11

I get annoyed at the misuse of terms as well but i just keep my mouth shut. Just because I ENJOY building doesn't mean everyone else needs to. Still, it's nice to get some acknowledgement on a job nicely done. For the most part this only comes from the (few) other builders still around.
One problem with kitbuilding is the expense. Case in point.... I built a Top Flite AT-6 from the (discontinued) kit I've had lying around for a few years. I think I paid about $150 for the kit. Throw in about $80 worth of covering, paint, adhesives and $300 for a set of Robarts and I've got close to $550 in the airframe. Forget the 300+ hours. When TF came out with the ARF I bought one as a 'practise' T-6. Got the whole thing with retracts for about $275. OK, the gear isn't pneumatic but it works. The ARF weighs 1.5 pounds less than my creation and it flys just about as well. I'm not emotionally attached to it like I am the original but what the heck, if it crashes I just call 1-800-ARF and I'm back on the fliteline with less than 3 nights of slapping in servos and joining 3 wing panels invested! You really can't blame folks for taking the easy way out. Still, it can never be the same as when you roll your 'heart and soul' out to the fliteline for the maiden. You know exactly what I mean.
I have to get back to the shop. I'm extending the nose on this Flair Bipe I'm building in order to use the nice spun aluminum cowl that came with the kit while shoe-horning in a .72 four stroke. Simply can't have the prop sticking out an extra 7/16" from the cowl and recessing that baby into the firewall is a nightmare. Now THIS is what it's all about : )

carrellh

I'll never understand why saying "build" versus "assemble" bothers people so much.

Anyone who is in the hobby knows the amount of time and effort it takes to build a kit as well as what it takes for a typical ARF.

People who are not in the hobby cannot see any difference between a kit and an ARF, and they do not care.

We were at a family function a few years ago and had three planes in the truck. Two kits and an ARF
Sig Hog Bipe (fabric and dope finish) It won the "beauty contest" portion of our club's kit contest.
GP Super Sportster 60 (fabric and paint finish)
World Models Sky Raider (dirt cheap high wing ARF trainer). This was the one with the horrible light blue checkered fuselage side/top covering that looks like kitchen curtains, beige on bottom, and the red/blue printed pattern on top of the wings.

The one the relatives thought looked "cool" was the WM ARF, probably because of the colorful printed design on the wings. They don't care that it went together in a few hours and the other two took months.

dragonov3

My Feedback: (3)

I have assembled several arfs and built more kits then I can remember. I am currently finishing up a CG Super Chipmunk and will begin building a BT Flying King next week. I prefer kit building over arf assembling, and yes there is a difference. Building takes a considerable amount of time and skill as opposed to assembling an arf. I prefer kit building because it relaxes me and I can do it my way as long as structural integrity is maintained. My kit built airplane may be a little heavier then an arf, but I feel it is stronger and is easier to repair. It also does not look like every other airplane at the field. It only bothers me a little when people say they have built an arf. What bothers me is when they arf a kit that I have built, like the sig something extra. I kit built one and about a week later they arfed it. People asked me why i changed the covering on my arf.

Buzzed

There's a Hangar 9 Extra 260 for sale in the Market Place that the seller claims was built by a Pro Builder..Would that be the person in China that built the plane???..

carrellh

He builds and gets paid so he is a pro. The H9 was probably built by a team of pros.....................

Buzzed

I always wondered what the criteria was to be considered or to be able to announce yourself as a Pro builder, Thanks for answering that...

Michel

Hi

Well ,........................ this is something that has been bitting at me for some time . The term " BUILD " is way out of perportion in this hobby . I did this assemby some time ago and marked it as such , http://www.rccanada.ca/rccforum/showthread.php?t=75885 .

And when I see a post or thread , that says something like : I built an AeroWorks 540 Edge , I shy away very quickly , because I don,t want to start a rant . I,m not in the hobby for that . It,s just better to shut up .

Rant over

Michel

Gray Beard

My Feedback: (-1)

The rant is what terms we now see in magazines in the articles writen by what are supposed to be RC pros/writers. No one cares if you are flying an ARF or not. I'm pretty much one of the only builders in the group I fly with. No one really cares, we are all having fun. That's a non issue. The issue for me is having a writer using terms like kit and building when reviewing an ARF. On the same token I have seen this brought up when someone is using the term scratch building when someone is talking about plans and kit building. Scratch is drawing and designing your own plane/plans. I try to keep this straight myself because I build from plans and kits, been a lot of years sense I designed and drew my own plans for a plane. I try to always say plans instead of scratch but I do slip up once in a while or I will say scratch/plans. Doesn't mater to me a lot though because I gave up on todays magazines unless someone gives me a stack to read.

AndyW

My Feedback: (1)

My concern is the term "scratch built". What does that mean to anyone here? For me, it meant, started from scratch, the first line on a blank piece of paper. I've done a few of those, VERY early in the game, in the 70s. Simple, 1/2A types, .049s.

Now it seems to mean anything from built from a kit to plans built. Yeah, that's really getting anal but where's the pride in creativity these days ?

Having said that, it's been a long time since I did that and I do have a few Chinese built, "kits" still to be assembled.

I will say though, that this is the golden age in our hobby. You can do it any way you want. You can buy some really very fine products at insanely low prices. I bought my first Cannon, "micro" servos for 60, 1985 dollars. Factor in inflation and that would be some 100 of today's dollars. Now you can get truly micro servos for 5 dollars, like these. http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=11737&Product_Name=HobbyKing_Ultra_Micro_Servo_1.7g_for_ 3D_Flight_(Left) Yes, that's 1.7 grams.

The Cannon servos weighed something like 10 grams. But you know, they were designed and built in the good ole U.S.A. Ah, well.

lackeyma

My Feedback: (4)

You SELL your old mags to your own brother??? Geeeez.

RCFlyerDan

My Feedback: (54)

I have been building since I was 11, and now 50. So, yes, you "build" a kit, and "assemble" an ARF. I get annoyed too when it is said they built an ARF. I make sure that all of my students actually build a kit to teach them how they go together, so that when they break the ARF's, they know how to fix them, rather then come to me. I am guilty, though too of buying ARF's, but I mostly buy Comp-ARF's and you can't build them, unless you are really good at composites. I do have a couple builds in the works too. Right now, I am "building" an F-18 kit, but it was still molded in a mold. It is like building a ship in a bottle. I always correct my students or others at the field when I hear the term "built my ARF plane".