LMH Helicopter Discussion of all LMH helicopters both electric and glow.

cv 12 mounted on lmh 117

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Old 11-02-2003, 09:29 PM
  #1
notasme
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Default cv 12 mounted on lmh 117

Well I finished mounting a OS cv12 on my lmh 117. it started out 3 years ago as a 110 (v6). Two years ago I upgraded to v7. Now I installed an OS cv12. It was to wet to fly today but maybe later this week.
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Old 11-02-2003, 09:34 PM
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Default RE: cv 12 mounted on lmh 117

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Old 11-02-2003, 09:41 PM
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Default RE: cv 12 mounted on lmh 117

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 11-02-2003, 10:25 PM
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Default RE: cv 12 mounted on lmh 117

GREAT job I wonder if you will develope enough rotor rpm's with the bigger tooth bell. Also have you run it on the crutch yet ?? I notice only 2 bolts ,, is it real solid ? I too was thinking of mounting mine from the rear. Alan
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Old 11-02-2003, 11:00 PM
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Default RE: cv 12 mounted on lmh 117

Nice work!

How about some details?

Clutch and bell source, part numbers, teeth.
Starter cone.
Motor mount.
Main Rotor Shaft Length.
Throttle Setup.
All up weight.
CG location.

And video! We demand video!
No pressure now or anything

Great job,
Spiro
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Old 11-02-2003, 11:23 PM
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Default RE: cv 12 mounted on lmh 117

I have a .12cvr thanx to lyk2fly which developes 31,000 at wide open and the norvel puts out 25,000 so a bigger clutch bell like you have looks like a winner I would just like to know if you have enough rpm's to lift off and at what throttle setting. I plan to get the rest of the stuff I need to complete my converstion with a spair crutch . I am still waiting on a newv-7 and I hope it holds together LOL Alan
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Old 11-03-2003, 12:22 AM
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Default RE: cv 12 mounted on lmh 117

Notasme!

I am not a fan of those oil slingers, but I recognize a clever dude when I see innovative work like you are doing!! AND ... if it all comes together, you will have become the saviour of a lot of unhappy campers out there who are getting pretty disgusted with those foolish Norvel engines.

Keep up the good work and I hope you achieve success!!

Russ
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Old 11-03-2003, 08:53 AM
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Default RE: cv 12 mounted on lmh 117

All,

All of the parts where machined by me. I have the equipment to prototype this type of hardware.

The starter cone was turned from 3/4" aluminium stock.
The clutch was turned and ground form 5/8 440 stainless
The engine is mounted to the U block with 4- 4-40- 1/2" hardened screws
The U-mountind is bolted to the frame with 2 - 6-32 1 3/4 Hardened screws (and yes it is more then enough to hold the engine to the frame)
Mounts to the same holes as the v7.
The rotor RPMs will be higher then with a v7 with more power.
THe frame was made by me by using the wood frame as a template (2 years ago and has been flown with a v6 and a v7).
I put in a high amphr receiver Bat., which off-sets the additional weight of the engine.
I lengthened the rear landing gear mount so that the front and rear are the same.

My choices of mufflers was limited, I know there are some smaller ones out there but I wanted to get this started. I will be looking for a replacement.

If the weather gets better here I will take some pics of it flying.
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Old 11-03-2003, 09:04 AM
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Default RE: cv 12 mounted on lmh 117

All,

PS. I have a old schluter 60ed size and the engine is mounted to the frame with two blots in the same fashion. This has held up since 1987.

Them main shaft is 5/32 music wire from the LHS (been using this stuff for the main shaft for 3 years works great, I replaced the original one with this and have not had to replace it up until now because I need the shaft to be 1/4" longer.

Now all I have left for the winter is to mount the CP mod I have sitting completed on my bench.
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Old 11-03-2003, 12:21 PM
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Default RE: cv 12 mounted on lmh 117

Great work notasme

Your engine installation looks "the business" and is something along the lines of what I too intend doing over the coming winter months. I (and many more here) will be very interested to read how this engine performs for you, so please keep us posted on it's ability to provide the LMH's motive power

If all goes well with your flight tests - can I be the first to place an order for your "modification kit" . Well, such a kit would make this kind of mod much easier for people like me with no lathe to hand - can I tempt you to produce it?

Keep up the good work,

Tony
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Old 11-03-2003, 02:23 PM
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Default RE: cv 12 mounted on lmh 117

T.W.

At the present time I am not going to sell kits. But, if someone wanted drawings of the parts I would send CAD drawings to them.
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Old 11-04-2003, 11:58 PM
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Default RE: cv 12 mounted on lmh 117

I'd love to see the results to this.Something I'd try as my vmax 6 is troublesome and the 7 seems to have its share of problems as well.Curious why you went electric start insted of PS?Also is it possible to use a normal car clutch and pinion?I don't have access to alot of machining equipment.

Joey
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Old 11-05-2003, 03:53 AM
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Default RE: cv 12 mounted on lmh 117

Notasme: As Spiro said: "No pressure now or anything" . . . . but . . . . have you had the engine running yet? How did your clutch perform (did it grab too quickly for instance - I hope not). Is your gearing about right? Does the engine/gearing/rotor-size allow flight, bearing in mind the extra weight?

Please update us, and again quoting Spiro: ". . . . video! We demand video!"

There's already quite a lot of interest in this kind of LMH powerplant transplant, and if your system is a success I can guarantee you will have many imitators, me included

Tony
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Old 11-05-2003, 10:18 AM
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Default RE: cv 12 mounted on lmh 117

T.W.

The weather here (chicago) has not been conducive to flying. Plus by the time I get home it is dark so any flight testing is going to wait until the weekend.
I did talk to Paul at LM and his comment was that I would have enough power to ripe the rotor blades off (at full power) He thinks that with the power and RPM rating it will be off the ground a just above ideal. SO, most likely I will be running rich and do some EPA to allow for full stick deflection.
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Old 11-05-2003, 11:36 AM
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Default RE: cv 12 mounted on lmh 117

Understood about your weather situation. But you just can't imagine how interested I am in your modification. I've got my fingers crossed for you to get the chance to do some flight-tests this weekend

Tony
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Old 11-05-2003, 02:16 PM
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Default RE: cv 12 mounted on lmh 117

I'm crossing my toes....I may have to stay in this heli hobby after all...

Joey
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Old 11-06-2003, 06:12 PM
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Default RE: cv 12 mounted on lmh 117

Well today I got home while the sun was still out grabbed the bird and went to the backyard. After some adjusting of the needle valve (as normal for the first start) it is time to try it. Set it rich, throttled up and down to be sure of smooth transition, set it down and throttled up.
And, up it went!! Put it into a hover (3-4 feet) and all is. Transmitter is beeping because of low battery (no time to charge).
Hovered around for just about two minutes (can't push the transmitter much more, and dark is coming). Set it down nice and smooth.

All went very well the clutch works great, plenty of power and stable. The only thing is it is 46 degrees out side so no way to do a long duration run to test out heating.

I took a vacation day for Friday with any luck the weather will cooperate and I will see if I can get my wife to do a short vid.
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Old 11-06-2003, 06:18 PM
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Default RE: cv 12 mounted on lmh 117

One more thing, IT IS NOT as loud as the v7.
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Old 11-06-2003, 06:58 PM
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Default RE: cv 12 mounted on lmh 117

I'm very impressed! It works! Well done notasme, you're a star! I look forward to hearing how you get on tomorrow, when you'll hopefully get the chance to fly some more - and we can get to see your video too

Great stuff,

Tony
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Old 11-06-2003, 07:00 PM
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Default RE: cv 12 mounted on lmh 117

That's goooood news. I know you have to test about the cooling situation but I don't see any way for that to be an issue. On behalf of all of us nitro guys I say thank you! You've proved what I thought was possible. Now if only you would sell upgrade kits. BTW is your engine a cv or a cvr? Did you use an Associated clutch or Losi?........ I still can't believe this is true, thanks again. This is awesome news!
Mark
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Old 11-06-2003, 09:16 PM
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Default RE: cv 12 mounted on lmh 117

Mark,

The OS is a CV the CVR is a rear exhaust. I get the engine used from ebay and it has an Associated clutch (came with it).
I got a good price for it which is why I thought that this was well worth the try. (a new os 12CV is about $100.00 I payed $36.00 with the clutch) the engine is in great shape. I took it apart and checked over everything to be sure.

I think that most people could make the mount with a bandsaw. The tricky part is the shaft that you need for the clutch. This requires a lathe and a grinder that can be mounted to the lathe. I turned and ground the shaft to .0001 of the dimensions of the original shaft.

Because of the additional length of the main rotor shaft, and the size of the muffler the canopy needs a slight modification (just a few cuts and it fits. The only mod to the frame was to make a notch for the carb in the rear landing gear mount.
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Old 11-07-2003, 08:28 AM
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Default RE: cv 12 mounted on lmh 117

This is an intresting accomplishment. 1st Id like to offer my congrats to you, Notasme.

Thinking about your set up, Its a step toward us finding a better power source and you may hit apon it. Im wondering about the engine being mounted with the heat sink towards the rear of the Heli. With the helis aerodynamics that dont look like that will allow much cooling while flying. mabey the heat sink will displace much of the heat (keep us posted). The disappointing part of this setup is the "have to" machine our own parts. It would kinda be nice to find parts that are already available for that engine-Clutch for instance. Is it possible to mount the engine like the Vmax engines and just bellcrank the throttle linkage ? or is the reason you mounted the engine that way is because of the exhaust ? Im thinking about venturing into another power source but using whats available over the counter as much as possible. Another problem we may run into is a pinion problem. I do believe the pinion molded on the clutch bell is a 9t 32p pinion.

The whole Idea is a great replacement but most LMH heli pilots dont have the equipment to produce machined parts.
So, keep us posted and if you come up with any"over the counter" alternatives, keep us posted. Thanks.
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Old 11-07-2003, 01:11 PM
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Default RE: cv 12 mounted on lmh 117

Darth,

I mounted the engine that way for several reasons.
1. Balance. (having the weight sticking out sideway is not the best way to have weight distribution) Most Heli's have the engine mounted with the cylinder either forwards or backwards. Keeping the weight on the centerline as much as possible. Not sticking out the side.

2. Little to no modification to the frame.


I was not looking for a full off-the-shelf solution, just a reliable engine and clutch.

The gear on the clutch is a perfect pitch match. As for ratio this is all relative to effect engine power output and load created by the rotor. As well as max rotor RPM. To much load on the engine as well as two little is not conducive to good engine performance. This is much like matching a prop to an airplane engine. You size to power and performance. That is one reason my next step is to convert to collective pitch (again not looking for off-the-shelf solution). These engines produce HP with high RPMs so it is best to adjust the load for low to high with relation to RPM. This also helps to maintain rotor speed. This is much the same way the DC guys play with pinion gears to their DC motors.
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Old 11-07-2003, 03:03 PM
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Default RE: cv 12 mounted on lmh 117

I didnt think to much about the balance thing on the engine. Now that you mentioned a bit about CP, do you plan on doing your own CP mod or are you waiting for Choppahedz to come out with theirs. Also, can you tell me a little about what clutch you are using and pinion. The only thing you machined is the starter cone? This is interesting, you got the rusty cogs turning in my cranium . Feed us more info on your test flights as the info comes in.
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Old 11-07-2003, 06:12 PM
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Default RE: cv 12 mounted on lmh 117

Oy...the darn server is giving me problems and now I gotta type everything over again...I think a rear exhaust would be nice if mounting it the same as the vmax......give the ability to move the exhuast flow to the rear keeping things cleaner...The os cvr engines come with both rotary and slide carbs so theres no need for a linkage either way of mounting the engine.I assume the longer shaft was made only to make it possible to use a starter cone?If so then use of a flywheel for bump starting or a pull starter would eleminate the need for a new shaft to be made?Assuming normal car pinions will mate to the main gear on the heli?I may have to buy a sheet of aluminum and start making a crutch....wilst watching ebay for a motor.

Joey
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