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Converting My Losi LST2 To Electric - On The Cheap

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Old 01-18-2015, 08:09 AM
  #26  
Maj_Overdrive
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In my experience an 1800kv motor can feel a little lazy on 4s. If you geared an 1800kv and a 2200kv on 4s for the same top speed the 2200kv feels more peppy to me, especially from the midrange to top end. The 1800kv has plenty of power it just has a flat power curve that grunts through the gearing like a diesel. The purpose of lower kv is to allow higher voltages so peak rpm is more or less equal to a higher kv on a lower voltage. This gives more gearing options with those higher voltages so you might as well go for it. I personally like 5s for lots of applications, it adds some punch and pep while not getting too nutty. 5s also gives the esc a little headroom and motor temps aren't as sensitive to gearing as 6s can be. If you want a speed demon, to do multiple standing backflips or your truck is all aluminum then you probably want 6s.

Diff oil has a lot to do with preference and the surface being run on. Big tire MT's do need higher weight diff oil than say a truggy so I'm going to say at least 10k. I personally run 30k front with 20k rear in my LST XXL as I find a slightly lower weight in the rear helps the truck drift but you may like the same weight (or less difference between the) front and rear. I love throwing the truck sideways into a corner, then mashing the throttle throwing roost and steering the truck sideways out of the corner. My diff oils may be a bit on the thick side, I haven't tried any other weights in the truck as I'm pretty happy with it but I have wanted to try thinner oil front and rear to see what happens. I went this thick due to my 6.9" tall Trenchers and all the power I have from the Castle 1717 motor on 6s. On the now defunct LST forums most guys ran 20-30k, none lower than 10k though.
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Old 01-19-2015, 02:34 PM
  #27  
mattmatt001
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scowlingnewt we seem to be building the same LST and hitting the same questions! I am up to...

1800kv and 150a esc hobbywing
TDR mount
TDR single speed conversion
FOC tranny with GPM 64t Delrin Spur Gear
150x50 rcmonster tray

I am also now on oiling diffs and selecting batteries...

My question is what have you gone for battery wise? Im intrigued by the comment by maj_overdrive about 5 or 6s keeping the esc cooler.... I never knew this. I assumed a 6s battery would be harder on the motor and esc. So is 6s actually better and avoiding failure and keeping the esc cool ( I really cant afford to fry an esc!!)

also what pinion should I go with?
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Old 01-19-2015, 04:09 PM
  #28  
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@mattmatt001, let me clarify my statements about 5s and 6s as you seem to have misinterpreted them a bit. A 5s lipo gives a 6s rated esc a little headroom in the voltage department. A 6s pack is 25.2v fully charged while 6s rated esc internal components (capacitors, mosfets) are usually rated to 28v or less. At 21v fully charged a 5s pack isn't as close to the internal components limits. As for keeping things cooler, the answer is sometimes.

Motors draw power while the esc just decides how much to allow the motor to have. How much a power a motor draws is expressed in watts. The load placed on a motor determines how many watts it draws. Load is determined by everything from vehicle weight, gearing, aerodynamics to the surface being run on. Grass increases load over asphalt, as does higher speed gearing. Since watts is voltage multiplied by amps we can see that with a higher battery voltage the amp draw is lower. Amp draw is what causes the motor and esc to heat up so more voltage generally equals lower temps. This only works when the load stays the same and only the voltage goes up, in order to do that the gearing needs to change. So a vehicle on 4s geared for 40mph may have a higher amp draw than 5s geared for 40mph, but if you slap a 5s in with 4s gearing your top speed will be over 40mph increasing the load and amp draw.

Now for motor kv. Kv is simply how much rpm to expect a motor to spin (unloaded) per volt applied. For 1/8 scale where most were designed for nitro the available gearing is usually for motor rpm's between 30,000 and 40,000rpm. A 2200kv on 6s (22.2v nominal) is 49,000rpm which you can't gear for in a LST with some mounts. But a 1800kv on 6s (22.2v nominal) is 40,000rpm which you can hear for in most mounts for a LST. Btw I use nominal (3.7v per cell for lipos) instead of max pack voltage because voltage drops under load (when you apply throttle) so the motor will never see a 6s packs fully charged 25.2 volts. Nominal voltage is a good average to use instead.

Now we know higher voltage lowers the amp draw increasing runtime. But if you compare a brushless motor with a kv that equals 35,000rpm on 4s to a lower kv that equals 35,000 on 5s generally you'll find the lower kv and higher voltage to be more efficient. More efficient at converting power to motion, drawing less wattage, lowering temps and increasing runtime. This lower kv/higher voltage efficiency is separate from the amp draw thing and has been tested by motor manufacturers.

Now for the exception with 6s. Changes in gearing have a more dramatic effect on speed and temps than on lower voltages. This has been true to varying degrees with all the 1/8 1600-2200kv motors I've tried. Example, a 1 tooth change in pinion may have been a 10f change in temp on 5s near the 45mph limit of the motor but on 6s 1 tooth equals 20f change near the same 45mph motor limit. I'm just throwing out numbers to prove a point but every motor has a max speed it can be geared for in a particular vehicle. This is because on 6s a 1 tooth pinion change changes the top speed more than it would on 5s resulting in a greater temp difference. The same relationship is true when it comes to kv, a 1 tooth pinion change has less effect on top speed with lower kv motors than with higher kv motor so temps change less on lower kv motors.


Btw, for a typical 4 pole 4074 1/8 motor in a LST that limit is somewhere around 45mph, plus or minus a few mph depending on motor quality, the voltage and things like tire weight can vary quite a bit.

Last edited by Maj_Overdrive; 01-19-2015 at 04:38 PM.
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Old 01-20-2015, 12:26 PM
  #29  
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Wow that is some serious info, thank you for taking the time to write that up, That has really helped! Think I'll go 6s and play with gearing. Just had a sudden revelation... my esc come with a series cable set up... can I just tape two 3s batteries together or will this cause heat issues? Is it easy to swap it out to a single cable? Thank you again for that write up!
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Old 01-20-2015, 08:34 PM
  #30  
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You can use two 3s packs or change to a single connector on the esc, there's no difference. If you have a soldering iron it shouldn't be hard to change the connector, your lhs can do it for you too. I prefer a single pack for vehicles that can accept them. But if you have another vehicle that can accept a 3s or two 3s then it doesn't hurt to go with two 3s packs. If you do use a 3s separately then try to alternate between the two packs so they get even use, it'll help them stay more in balance with each other.
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Old 01-28-2015, 11:58 AM
  #31  
mattmatt001
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Please Remove **

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Old 02-11-2015, 02:57 PM
  #32  
grafster
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I'm looking into converting my LST 2 too - there must be something in the air... Anyway, my Motor mount and battery tray arrive from RC Monster today, so the next thing on my mind is the electric stuff. With the Turnigy combo mentioned up the thread (http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store...Truck_ESC.html) would this battery be suitable http://hobbyking.co.uk/hobbyking/sto...ehouse%5F.html ? It seems suspiciously cheaper than the other options suggested in this thread, so I thought I ought to check.
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Old 02-12-2015, 01:54 AM
  #33  
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That is a 20c battery, it barely meets the minimum 100amps that's generally recommended for 1/8 stuff. You'll get better performance and stress the pack less with a 30c or higher pack. My current packs are Turnigy 30c and they've done well in my LST but 20c is too low.
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Old 02-12-2015, 03:40 PM
  #34  
grafster
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Aha - I thought there'd be a catch... I know what to look out for now, thanks.
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Old 09-25-2015, 11:43 AM
  #35  
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Losi makes a conversion kit now

http://www.horizonhobby.com/electric...-2-p-los348000

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Old 10-02-2015, 05:13 AM
  #36  
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When doing the conversion, is anyone running the stock steel spur gear? Or must this be changed out?
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Old 12-05-2015, 08:51 AM
  #37  
fastfreddie
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Hopefully this thread isn't dead...I didn't want to start a new one just to ask "What should I do?"

I'm thinkin' electric is the way to go for me. I'm a bit over the tuning, fuel, start-up, etc. for my nitro LST. Short of buying Losi's conversion kit, a good motor, batteries and charger to make the swap to electric, I'm torn between selling my LST outright and just buying the XXL2E or going for the LST conversion.
Let's say money isn't the deciding factor. That being said, I figure I might recoup some money from the nitro package but there's no way I'll get back even half of what I've invested...and you know a $600 truck costs $1000 after you start buying upgrade stuff and accessories. No way anyone wants to give me anywhere near $500 for what I have.

So, nitro to electric conversion, or dedicated electric purchase...what would you do?

If I went with the conversion, all the above questions in this thread would be in my mind, particularly, gearing. Also, I like my 2 speed, dual range transmission w/ reverse. Would I lose that converting to electric?
I used to enjoy crawling in low range and really had no use for outright topend, unless I was looking to replace parts damaged in out-of-control mishaps. But I'm not solely interested in crawling...I want speed capability, too. 45mph seems plenty as that's about what the nitro LST pulls in high range.

I realize conversions can be done on the cheap, but it seems I'd really have to know the ins and outs to keep the components in balance with each other. Am I being naive to think high dollar, high power, dedicated conversion packages will take the guess work out of the equation and offer long term reliability? At my low level of e-knowledge, I'm thinking I would be better served by buying an e-truck...but I really like my original LST. I can't have both and I don't want to deal with nitro anymore.
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Old 12-06-2015, 12:52 PM
  #38  
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You really don't need to have tons of "e-knowledge" as you put it. Enough people have converted these trucks that the knowledge is out there and you can have a setup just as reliable as a new XXL2e. The only things you'll have to consider is cost and how much wrenching you can do on your own.

As for cost. A 1/8 brushless esc and motor combo is $200-300 bucks new depending on the brand you pick, sales, coupons, etc. A conversion kit (or piecing together conversion parts) is going to run about $100-125. Then you'll need batteries and a charger which the XXL2e doesn't come with either.

Now for a few other details. You also won't need the auto shifting 2 speed, which on the LST trucks is outside the transmission and inside the spur gears. The hi-lo internal 2 speed can stay but there's a rub. Electrics don't need the reverse gears in the transmission as the motor reverses rotation. The problem is I tried to keep the reverse gears in a LST conversion and the trans would pop out of forward. I removed the servo and just tied the reverse selector arm with wire to keep it in forward and it would pop out. If you put a forward only conversion in the trans it also gets rid of the hi-lo gears. I made my own forward only conversion by removing the reverse gears (and the bi-lo since I didn't want them) and then using JB weld to keep the forward gears in the correct position on the shafts. You'd need to do this to just the reverse gears but I warn that the hi-low gears may pop out of position just as the reverse gears did for me.
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Old 12-06-2015, 01:58 PM
  #39  
fastfreddie
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Ha! Thanks for the reply. I expected this to go unseen.

I have enough mechanical inclination...LST has been apart - every single nut, bolt, gear, etc., and returned to running ordered.

So, roughly, $300-$425 gets me an electric, single speed, *no reverse needed, LST...add batteries and charger. The money isn't so much a factor as getting a seamless package.
*(I hadn't considered the reverse polarity thing...part of my unfamiliarity, not that I wouldn't have eventually realized it, it's just not on my active radar).

The 45mph that the LST was capable of is plenty fast enough for the terrain I'll be visiting...sloped, undulating back yard dirt, loam, grass. It's the slow stuff that concerns me, log/rock crawlin'.
I'm sure the e-motors have the torque, but won't that build a lot of heat running at low rpm AND asking for heavy loads? What does that do to the batteries?

At any rate, how do I keep from burning up an all-around package with desired long run-times of fast and/or slow? You touched on being able to keep running temps under control and I'll have to revisit that.
Would there be any other considerations given the type of use I intend?

Thanks, again, for your awesomeness.
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Old 12-06-2015, 07:47 PM
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Well let's tackle your goals then we'll talk about the conversion itself. Now there are sensored and sensorless systems. Sensored have sensors in the motor to tell the esc the motor's position for very smooth startup and low speed running. Sensorless on the other hand the motor has to spin to certain rpm for the esc to be able to read EMF signals coming back through the wires. Sensorless can have a bit of an abrupt startup as the esc uses an algorithm to get the motor spinning to that rpm. A typical 2200kv sensorless motor on 4s geared for 45mph as a single speed does have some slow speed capability but can't spin as slow as sensored and is a little more jerky.

As far as temps go, you really only have to worry about your overall gearing. The typical 2000-2200kv motor on 4s is good to about 45mph in a truck like the LST. Crawling over obstacles does place a decent load on the motor but it's not really enough to cause excessive heat in this combination.

Now to improve slow speed crawling having 2 speeds definitely helps. As for the internal Hi-Low, it's possible that it might pop out, but I'm really not sure if it will or not. Reverse popping out was a problem on my conversion and I didn't need Hi-Low so I just used JB Weld to lock the gears in place to make it a single speed. As I said the reverse gears would need to be removed leaving the Hi-Low gears, there's no kit that keeps one or the other so only drilling new holes in the shafts (very hard to do) or JB Welding the gears in place on the shafts will work.

Instead you could keep the external auto shifting 2 speed. The 2 speed would need to be adjusted and the truck may be prone to wheelies when it shifts into 2nd gear (under heavy acceleration) due to the power of brushless. There's also the issue of the one way bearing in the 2 speed so when the motor is reversed or braked it has no effect as the one way bearing only allows the motor to drive the trans input shaft in one direction. This means mechanical brakes and reverse in the transmission must be used, meaning the servos for reverse and brake also must be retained making battery tray mounting more of a pain. And lastly motor braking must be disabled in the esc which 90% of esc's can do.

Last edited by Maj_Overdrive; 12-06-2015 at 08:40 PM.
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Old 12-06-2015, 08:35 PM
  #41  
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Now as for conversion kits, there's quite a few options out there but only a couple actual "kits". LOS348000 Losi conversion kit I feel is about the best option. It's a complete kit, converts the truck to XXL length which I feel is a bit better for brushless power. The big limiting factor with this kit is that you will not be able to mount servos for reverse or brake with a lot of work so you're stuck with running a single speed transmission.

I'm a fan of RC-Monster parts, they're quality and work well. They don't have a kit but do have everything you need (even pinions) except for the single speed adapter so I posted the Losi one. The battery trays are machined from solid blocks of Delrin and come with straps. The "one piece" tray has a step on the bottom that goes over the LST chassis brace so it will easily fit on a standard short LST chassis where other trays are a tight fit.
http://www.rc-monster.com/proddetail...%2C_Aftershock
http://www.rc-monster.com/proddetail...ttery_Tray_Kit
Losb3408 Losi single speed adapter

This seller usually has titanium motor mounts and single speeds (and other parts) but doesn't have any listed at the moment. I've read about others using the parts and they seem to be high quality. Again no kit so you'll have to source some things like a battery tray and pinion from other sources.
http://m.ebay.com/sch/i.html?sid=rc_...&isRefine=true

I don't like even mentioning this one because the parts are actually a copy of others designs and I don't want to promote those who steal designs. The single speed is a blatant copy of The Dude's (TDR) and the motor mount has a strong resemblance to RC-Monster's. But it's a complete kit and I'll let your conscience decide.
http://m.ebay.com/itm/Losi-LST2-XXL2...188?nav=SEARCH

Lastly there's TDR or The Dude Racing. His motor mounts have about the most adjustability and the parts are top notch. Unfortunately he moved to another state and hasn't gotten his machines back up and running to produce more parts yet.
http://www.tdracingrc.com/TD%20Product%20Line.htm

Last edited by Maj_Overdrive; 12-06-2015 at 08:43 PM.
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Old 12-06-2015, 08:54 PM
  #42  
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Oh one more thing I forgot to mention. It almost didn't occur to me that your truck sounds like the original LST as I don't think the LST2 came with Hi-Low trans. If that's the case your LST uses the original suspension design which isn't as durable as the LST2 based suspension of the XXL2e.

Another consideration. Is the wheel hex size, the LST uses 14mm, whereas the LST2 based suspension uses 20mm hex adapters. I can tell you right now that the 14mm hex will round out and strip with brushless power. My first LST based conversion was an Aftershock (same 14mm wheels as LST) and they stripped out on the first run. I glued the hex into the wheel and then spun the drive pin inside the plastic hex within the next 5 minutes. Something to consider in the cost of upgrades vs a new XXL2e or other vehicle.
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Old 12-06-2015, 11:59 PM
  #43  
Tommygunn792
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Maj_Overdrive,
Great info thanks. The LST2 does have the manual, two speed gearbox.

Tom.
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Old 12-07-2015, 08:20 AM
  #44  
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Well, Major, you've provided plenty of info. I really appreciate that you took the time to provide such valuable input.
Beefing up the torque delivery on my first generation LST with an e-motor will likely demand various other driveline upgrades. That's a road I've gone down and it seems like a never ending stream of nickles and dimes. If I can break that stuff with the nitro engine, as I have, I will likely destroy it with an e-motor.

I'm gonna sell my LST and buy an e-truck, after a bit of research on the various brand's offerings. First thought is the XXL2-E, but ya never know...

Thank you, Sir. You are an asset to this community.
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Old 12-07-2015, 08:35 AM
  #45  
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No problem, that's what we're here for. The XXL2e is really just a longer LST2, the suspension and driveline are the same except for the diff cups which are HD on the XXL and XXL2e. I converted my XXL with a homemade mount and a big Castle 1717 (Traxxas XO1 motor) on 6s and have no issue with the drivetrain. The key to any driveline living is shimming the diffs and getting rid of any slop, this is especially important with brushless.

As for new trucks, I love my Losi LST XXL and the XXL2e seems to get good reviews from owners. The CEN Colossus is another big brute of a truck. I'm not a fan of the Savage and it has its own issues but way better than just about any Traxxas. Well good luck whatever you decide to do or get.
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Old 12-07-2015, 08:42 AM
  #46  
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Thanks for the leads...
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Old 12-31-2015, 01:43 PM
  #47  
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Since everyone talking about cheap electric conversions, here is my creation.
its an xtm Mammoth(bought it for cheap with no engine), with a brushed 550 sized motor out of a powerwheels kids toy car.

here are the specs:

550 brushed motor, unkown turns

"320 amp" esc--one of these cheap ebay one, high doubt the 320 amp

19 tooth pinion, 65 tooth spur

3s lipo,

original mechanical brakes and 2 speed transmission(only one speed in use).

some pics

does not go very fast, and i did almost light the motor on fire, but it was fun to make and drive
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Old 01-15-2017, 09:19 AM
  #48  
coreyh6969
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Are there any new updates on how to do this. This is the combo I am thinking about using. https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-...00kv-120a.html
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Old 05-04-2017, 07:52 AM
  #49  
Tommygunn792
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Finally, after a very long time, I had my electrified LST2 running last night after receiving my Hobbywing ESC yesterday.

The specs are as follows:
Hobbywing WP 8BL150
ZIPPY Compact 5800mAh 4s 40c
Gool RC 4076 2000Kv 4P
XT150 plugs
Losi single speed hub
Selection of GDS pinions (24T,25T & 26T)
Homemade motor mount and battery tray

I think that's it.

Tom.

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Last edited by Tommygunn792; 05-04-2017 at 08:01 AM.
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