Higher nitro %=cooler running?
01-25-2006, 07:46 PM
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RE: Higher nitro %=cooler running?
This is a really good thread...I'd like to hear what others have to say....I personally think that it's BS...a engine will run the temps you want it to run by simple tuning...Another question in regards to this would be...what's the efficiency of 30% compared to 20%...and how much power do you really get out of higher nitro...
I like high lube % fuel....alot of engines don't seem to like that...but..you can get closer to optimum performance, with the insurance of your engine getting it's lube...
I like high lube % fuel....alot of engines don't seem to like that...but..you can get closer to optimum performance, with the insurance of your engine getting it's lube...
01-25-2006, 08:46 PM
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RE: Higher nitro %=cooler running?
I'd like to apologize for the length of this post but I hoped to stop it carrying on without people new to nitro missing the really important bits lost in a potential disagreement, most likely to happen on this subject cause I seen it happen a couple of years ago.
I copied this from a model airplane site but it's relavent. When you understand what nitro fuel is and how it works you'll see there's something in both of the earlier comments. 30% nitro is for racers trying to squeeze that last bit of power from a race engine, key word, 'race'
There are loads of article around about fuels since it's become somewhat a science trying to find the right blend of the key ingredients. Trucks taking off in the last couple of years especially RTR's has made glow fuel and it's effects on engines big money. Trinity and O'Donnell came out with RTR fuels just to help people along and keep them from frying their engines within a gallon of learning how to tune. Take White Lightning 30%, in some engines you can hear the difference, but the oil content is low. 25% is all the vast majority will ever need. Good cooling and power.
The writer is Don Nix, founder and former owner of POWERMASTER FUEL.
So….how does it add power? We all know (I think) that although we think of the liquid part substance we put in fuel tanks (in our automobiles or model airplanes) as the fuel, in truth, there is another "fuel," without which the liquid part would be useless. Remember what it is? Right….just plain old air (in reality, the oxygen in the air).
Every internal combustion engine mixes air and another fuel of some sort….in our case, a liquid…glow fuel. The purpose of the carburetor is to meter those two ingredients in just the right proportions, and every individual engine has a requirement for a specific proportion of liquid fuel and air. Try to push in too much liquid without enough air, and the engine won’t run at all. That’s the purpose of the turbocharger on full-size engines….to cram in a lot more air than a simple carburetor or fuel injection system can handle.
Now…..suppose we were to find a way to run more liquid through our model engines without increasing the air supply? That would add power, wouldn’t it? Well, guess what….we can! An internal combustion engine can burn more than 2 ½ times as much nitromethane to a given volume of air than it can methanol. Voila! More Power! That’s how it works, and it ain’t all that complicated. Nor do we have to spend a lot of time thinking about it in the course of a normal day’s sport flying.
However, there are some factors we do need to consider. As a practical matter, virtually all our everyday sport flying can be done on model fuel containing from 5% to 15% nitromethane. If you’re flying something like a trainer or a Cub or similar model, there’s probably no reason why 5% won’t work perfectly well. Need a little more power? Move up to 10% or 15%. In most of our sport engines today, I really wouldn’t recommend going any higher than that. It probably won’t hurt anything, but it won’t do you much good, either.
We sell more 15% fuel than any other single blend, and for good reason. Most of the popular engines on the market today are built to run on something very near that blend. Typically, European engines will successfully run on lower nitro blends, because they are built to do so. Why? In Europe, nitro can cost between $150 to $200 a gallon! Reason enough?
Nitro does more than just add power. It also helps achieve a lower, more reliable idle. One good rule of thumb for checking to see if a particular engine needs a higher nitro blend is to start the engine, let it warm up for a few seconds, set throttle to full idle and remove the glow driver. If it drops rpm, move up to a 5% higher nitro blend. If there is no discernible drop, you should be fine right where you are.
One of the most popular misconceptions is that by adding substantial nitro, the user will immediately achieve a huge power jump. Just ain’t so. Most will be surprised to learn that in the 5% - 25% nitro range, you will probably only see an rpm increase of about 100 rpm static (sitting on the ground or on a test stand) for each 5% nitro increase. In the air, it will unload and achieve a greater increase, and it will probably idle better, too.
My pet rule is this: If you have a model that’s doing well, but just isn’t quite "there" powerwise, go up 5% in nitro. If that doesn’t do it, you need a bigger engine, not more nitro!
Most of our popular sport engines in use today aren’t set up to run on much more than 15% or 20% nitro. Increasing the nitro has the effect of increasing the compression ratio, and each specific engine has an optimum compression level. Exceed it and performance will probably suffer, not gain, and the engine will become much less "user friendly."
http://www.scootworks.com/rdrc/fuel.html#nitro
I copied this from a model airplane site but it's relavent. When you understand what nitro fuel is and how it works you'll see there's something in both of the earlier comments. 30% nitro is for racers trying to squeeze that last bit of power from a race engine, key word, 'race'
There are loads of article around about fuels since it's become somewhat a science trying to find the right blend of the key ingredients. Trucks taking off in the last couple of years especially RTR's has made glow fuel and it's effects on engines big money. Trinity and O'Donnell came out with RTR fuels just to help people along and keep them from frying their engines within a gallon of learning how to tune. Take White Lightning 30%, in some engines you can hear the difference, but the oil content is low. 25% is all the vast majority will ever need. Good cooling and power.
The writer is Don Nix, founder and former owner of POWERMASTER FUEL.
So….how does it add power? We all know (I think) that although we think of the liquid part substance we put in fuel tanks (in our automobiles or model airplanes) as the fuel, in truth, there is another "fuel," without which the liquid part would be useless. Remember what it is? Right….just plain old air (in reality, the oxygen in the air).
Every internal combustion engine mixes air and another fuel of some sort….in our case, a liquid…glow fuel. The purpose of the carburetor is to meter those two ingredients in just the right proportions, and every individual engine has a requirement for a specific proportion of liquid fuel and air. Try to push in too much liquid without enough air, and the engine won’t run at all. That’s the purpose of the turbocharger on full-size engines….to cram in a lot more air than a simple carburetor or fuel injection system can handle.
Now…..suppose we were to find a way to run more liquid through our model engines without increasing the air supply? That would add power, wouldn’t it? Well, guess what….we can! An internal combustion engine can burn more than 2 ½ times as much nitromethane to a given volume of air than it can methanol. Voila! More Power! That’s how it works, and it ain’t all that complicated. Nor do we have to spend a lot of time thinking about it in the course of a normal day’s sport flying.
However, there are some factors we do need to consider. As a practical matter, virtually all our everyday sport flying can be done on model fuel containing from 5% to 15% nitromethane. If you’re flying something like a trainer or a Cub or similar model, there’s probably no reason why 5% won’t work perfectly well. Need a little more power? Move up to 10% or 15%. In most of our sport engines today, I really wouldn’t recommend going any higher than that. It probably won’t hurt anything, but it won’t do you much good, either.
We sell more 15% fuel than any other single blend, and for good reason. Most of the popular engines on the market today are built to run on something very near that blend. Typically, European engines will successfully run on lower nitro blends, because they are built to do so. Why? In Europe, nitro can cost between $150 to $200 a gallon! Reason enough?
Nitro does more than just add power. It also helps achieve a lower, more reliable idle. One good rule of thumb for checking to see if a particular engine needs a higher nitro blend is to start the engine, let it warm up for a few seconds, set throttle to full idle and remove the glow driver. If it drops rpm, move up to a 5% higher nitro blend. If there is no discernible drop, you should be fine right where you are.
One of the most popular misconceptions is that by adding substantial nitro, the user will immediately achieve a huge power jump. Just ain’t so. Most will be surprised to learn that in the 5% - 25% nitro range, you will probably only see an rpm increase of about 100 rpm static (sitting on the ground or on a test stand) for each 5% nitro increase. In the air, it will unload and achieve a greater increase, and it will probably idle better, too.
My pet rule is this: If you have a model that’s doing well, but just isn’t quite "there" powerwise, go up 5% in nitro. If that doesn’t do it, you need a bigger engine, not more nitro!
Most of our popular sport engines in use today aren’t set up to run on much more than 15% or 20% nitro. Increasing the nitro has the effect of increasing the compression ratio, and each specific engine has an optimum compression level. Exceed it and performance will probably suffer, not gain, and the engine will become much less "user friendly."
http://www.scootworks.com/rdrc/fuel.html#nitro
01-25-2006, 08:56 PM
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RE: Higher nitro %=cooler running?
Nice write up...I agree on some points....and the only disagreement have to do with that they are talking about airplanes/helis....but good info....
Thinking about planes/helis and MT's....you have to consider...nitro planes run a more constant rpms...in which are usually high...which makes it easier to tune....MT, on the other hand...run a wide veriaty of RPMs...they even have to idle...just to throw that in there...
Thinking about planes/helis and MT's....you have to consider...nitro planes run a more constant rpms...in which are usually high...which makes it easier to tune....MT, on the other hand...run a wide veriaty of RPMs...they even have to idle...just to throw that in there...
01-25-2006, 09:16 PM
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RE: Higher nitro %=cooler running?
AirPlane Fuel and Car Fuel are not the Same,
If you read the R/C car magazines, engine instruction manuals or talk to local racers, you'll likely find conflicting information about car fuels. The main controversy seems to focus on how much and what type of oil is needed for a car fuel.
Here the straight scoop based on over 15 years of experience that includes working closely with engine manufactures, industry experts, top-level racers and the results of testing literally hundreds of formulas in all types of car engines and conditions.
Why Not Airplane Fuel
Car engines operate in a totally different environment than do airplane engines. Airplane engines spend a great deal of their running life at full rpm, they have a constant airflow from the prop to aid in cooling and instant throttle response and acceleration is not as critical as with a car engine.
Car engines spend most of their life accelerating from one corner to the next and are seldom at full RPM for more than a few seconds. They rely on an oversize heat sink head to dissipate combustion heat and racers actually tune car engines based on throttle response.
Fuel designed for airplanes typically have from 15 to 20% oil. While the manufactures that truly understand the requirements of car engines typically put 8 to 12% oil in their car fuel.
Why 8% to 12% Oil
Using high oil content fuels (above 15%) in gas car engines won't provide improved engine life, as some would expect. Through extensive testing we've discovered the point of diminishing return as far as oil content to engine life is actually around 8% for most car engines. In other words any more oil than 8% in the fuel does noting to improve the life of a car engine. In fact the secondary effects of high oil content fuels can actually cause engine damage by encouraging over lean runs. Here's how.
Using high oil content fuel causes a car engine to be unresponsive during acceleration acting as if the engine were running rich. Typically when using high oil content fuel, in order to get crisp acceleration and response, an engine will need to be adjusted overly lean. In addition the high oil content prevents lean bog when an engine is over-leaned thus allowing the engine to run at this lean setting without the customary telltale lean bog warning letting you know the engine is overheating.
In summary, high oil content fuels don't give added protection. The point of diminishing return from a protection standpoint in a gas car application is about 8% oil depending on the oil type and engine. Anymore oil than this doesn't offer added protection and has potential secondary effects that reduce performance and can actually cause you to over lean your engine in an attempt to get crisp throttle response and acceleration. Do yourself a favor and follow these two rules:
Rule #1- Always use a high quality fresh fuel designed specifically for gas car use that has between 8% and 12% oil preferably with at least some castor in it. (We recommend Blue Thunder Sport or Race Formula)
Rule #2 - Don't use airplane fuels or any other type of fuels that have over 15% oil in your gas car engine.
Understanding Fuel
Written by: Pete Bergstrom, Horizon Engine Product Manager
Article Type: How-Tos
Posted: 9/24/2003
Copyright:
Droplets of water inside a fuel jug will contaminate the fuel. But there are ways to combat moisture.
Model engine "glow" fuel is made up of three key elements: methanol, oil and nitromethane. Many fuel manufacturers include other additives that are designed to solve any number of common problems that may occur with our fuel. But for now, let's only address the most common elements of the fuel and how you can care for your fuel to keep it fresh and stop it from going "bad." These steps will ultimately make your model engine operations easier.
Why would fuel go "bad"?
The largest portion of the fuel is methanol (alcohol). Methanol is hygroscopic; it attracts moisture. This can cause your fuel to be contaminated with water, which will cause poor engine performance. Additionally, the UV rays in sunlight will eventually break down the nitromethane if the fuel jug is stored in sunlight for long periods of time.
How can you tell when your fuel has gone "bad"?
The first indications will generally be the inability to start the engines at previously run needle-valve settings. Another clue might be that the engine has very poor idle, runs but bogs down tremendously during run up and/or will not attain the same RPMs you are used to.
How do I keep my fuel fresh?
If you have the opportunity, look for someone at a flying field on a sunny day who has a jug of fuel that is only ¼ full. What you may notice is that there are droplets attached to the top and sides of the fuel. This is the moisture in the air that is condensing inside the jug because of the greenhouse effect of the semi-translucent plastic jug. One way to overcome the greenhouse effect is to store your fuel in a metal can.
You can also combat the effects of the moisture in the air by squeezing all the extra air from your fuel container at the end of the day or transferring your fuel into smaller containers as the level of the fuel is reduced in your gallon jug. Many pilots will invest in half-gallon or quart-size containers and only bring that amount of fuel to the field on any given day. This allows their main supply of fuel to stay at home in a controlled storage environment, virtually insuring problem-free fuel.
More Info Here,
http://www.horizonhobby.com/Explore/...earchTerm=fuel
If you read the R/C car magazines, engine instruction manuals or talk to local racers, you'll likely find conflicting information about car fuels. The main controversy seems to focus on how much and what type of oil is needed for a car fuel.
Here the straight scoop based on over 15 years of experience that includes working closely with engine manufactures, industry experts, top-level racers and the results of testing literally hundreds of formulas in all types of car engines and conditions.
Why Not Airplane Fuel
Car engines operate in a totally different environment than do airplane engines. Airplane engines spend a great deal of their running life at full rpm, they have a constant airflow from the prop to aid in cooling and instant throttle response and acceleration is not as critical as with a car engine.
Car engines spend most of their life accelerating from one corner to the next and are seldom at full RPM for more than a few seconds. They rely on an oversize heat sink head to dissipate combustion heat and racers actually tune car engines based on throttle response.
Fuel designed for airplanes typically have from 15 to 20% oil. While the manufactures that truly understand the requirements of car engines typically put 8 to 12% oil in their car fuel.
Why 8% to 12% Oil
Using high oil content fuels (above 15%) in gas car engines won't provide improved engine life, as some would expect. Through extensive testing we've discovered the point of diminishing return as far as oil content to engine life is actually around 8% for most car engines. In other words any more oil than 8% in the fuel does noting to improve the life of a car engine. In fact the secondary effects of high oil content fuels can actually cause engine damage by encouraging over lean runs. Here's how.
Using high oil content fuel causes a car engine to be unresponsive during acceleration acting as if the engine were running rich. Typically when using high oil content fuel, in order to get crisp acceleration and response, an engine will need to be adjusted overly lean. In addition the high oil content prevents lean bog when an engine is over-leaned thus allowing the engine to run at this lean setting without the customary telltale lean bog warning letting you know the engine is overheating.
In summary, high oil content fuels don't give added protection. The point of diminishing return from a protection standpoint in a gas car application is about 8% oil depending on the oil type and engine. Anymore oil than this doesn't offer added protection and has potential secondary effects that reduce performance and can actually cause you to over lean your engine in an attempt to get crisp throttle response and acceleration. Do yourself a favor and follow these two rules:
Rule #1- Always use a high quality fresh fuel designed specifically for gas car use that has between 8% and 12% oil preferably with at least some castor in it. (We recommend Blue Thunder Sport or Race Formula)
Rule #2 - Don't use airplane fuels or any other type of fuels that have over 15% oil in your gas car engine.
Understanding Fuel
Written by: Pete Bergstrom, Horizon Engine Product Manager
Article Type: How-Tos
Posted: 9/24/2003
Copyright:
Droplets of water inside a fuel jug will contaminate the fuel. But there are ways to combat moisture.
Model engine "glow" fuel is made up of three key elements: methanol, oil and nitromethane. Many fuel manufacturers include other additives that are designed to solve any number of common problems that may occur with our fuel. But for now, let's only address the most common elements of the fuel and how you can care for your fuel to keep it fresh and stop it from going "bad." These steps will ultimately make your model engine operations easier.
Why would fuel go "bad"?
The largest portion of the fuel is methanol (alcohol). Methanol is hygroscopic; it attracts moisture. This can cause your fuel to be contaminated with water, which will cause poor engine performance. Additionally, the UV rays in sunlight will eventually break down the nitromethane if the fuel jug is stored in sunlight for long periods of time.
How can you tell when your fuel has gone "bad"?
The first indications will generally be the inability to start the engines at previously run needle-valve settings. Another clue might be that the engine has very poor idle, runs but bogs down tremendously during run up and/or will not attain the same RPMs you are used to.
How do I keep my fuel fresh?
If you have the opportunity, look for someone at a flying field on a sunny day who has a jug of fuel that is only ¼ full. What you may notice is that there are droplets attached to the top and sides of the fuel. This is the moisture in the air that is condensing inside the jug because of the greenhouse effect of the semi-translucent plastic jug. One way to overcome the greenhouse effect is to store your fuel in a metal can.
You can also combat the effects of the moisture in the air by squeezing all the extra air from your fuel container at the end of the day or transferring your fuel into smaller containers as the level of the fuel is reduced in your gallon jug. Many pilots will invest in half-gallon or quart-size containers and only bring that amount of fuel to the field on any given day. This allows their main supply of fuel to stay at home in a controlled storage environment, virtually insuring problem-free fuel.
More Info Here,
http://www.horizonhobby.com/Explore/...earchTerm=fuel
01-25-2006, 09:33 PM
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RE: Higher nitro %=cooler running?
yet another good post....but...thinking about where it's coming from..1) trying to make money off of higher content nitro...the more the average user buys higher % fuel, the more money....2) the more they blow the motors up trying to be a sporty tuner...the more they make on engines...
"Let me say that there is nothing wrong with 30+% nitro...."
the only way that I can see, lower % nitro and higher % oil fuels making any more heat...is that there is that much more to combust....higher combustion would make higher heat....but.....I think this is a gimick...there might be some truth to it....but I think, the reason you find articles like this....is because they don't want the tech support issues, and would rather you spend more money...an exspieranced tuner would not have a problem....
"Let me say that there is nothing wrong with 30+% nitro...."
the only way that I can see, lower % nitro and higher % oil fuels making any more heat...is that there is that much more to combust....higher combustion would make higher heat....but.....I think this is a gimick...there might be some truth to it....but I think, the reason you find articles like this....is because they don't want the tech support issues, and would rather you spend more money...an exspieranced tuner would not have a problem....
01-25-2006, 09:52 PM
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RE: Higher nitro %=cooler running?
Our motors generally are built to run between 16-25 nitro. The higher percentages tend to have a cooling effect, but it's more to do with effective combustion. 30% in most engines require additional head shims. Is the performance gain worth the extra dough? Unless you're running a turbo plug, ??? That debate has been waged as well and the jury is split.
There is nothing wrong with 30% but it's aimed mainly at the racing crowd and because the oil percentage is typically low, it can have an effect on engine life. It's like smoking filtered and non filtered, they both will kill you.
Another thing on longevity; A sponsored racer is likely paying for his motors, is he.
There is nothing wrong with 30% but it's aimed mainly at the racing crowd and because the oil percentage is typically low, it can have an effect on engine life. It's like smoking filtered and non filtered, they both will kill you.
Another thing on longevity; A sponsored racer is likely paying for his motors, is he.
01-25-2006, 10:26 PM
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RE: Higher nitro %=cooler running?
I Run SideWinder Pro Race 30% Nitro 10% Oil in All my Engines From Day one,( Yes During Break-In)
My First Mach 26 Got 8 1/2 Gallons before it needed a New piston/Sleeve..
( Could have Got more Out of it,But it wouldn't hold a Good Tune Anymore)
My 2nd Mach has Over 10 Gallons on it and it's Still Going Strong....
I Run themon the Lean Side and Beat the Crap out of them,Lots of High Speed Runs, Just Keep a Good Tune on them and they'll Last...
PS. My Heat Stays around 220 to 240, I've never Seen it over 260 by the End of a Tank....
My First Mach 26 Got 8 1/2 Gallons before it needed a New piston/Sleeve..
( Could have Got more Out of it,But it wouldn't hold a Good Tune Anymore)
My 2nd Mach has Over 10 Gallons on it and it's Still Going Strong....
I Run themon the Lean Side and Beat the Crap out of them,Lots of High Speed Runs, Just Keep a Good Tune on them and they'll Last...
PS. My Heat Stays around 220 to 240, I've never Seen it over 260 by the End of a Tank....
01-26-2006, 05:26 PM
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RE: Higher nitro %=cooler running?
To answer the original question, if you switch to a higher nitro fuel, all other things being equal the engine temp will go up.
More power - more heat.
Two things come into play that can counteract this fact. When you switch to a higher nitro fuel you will need to richen the needles a bit. This not only lets more fuel into the engine, but more importantly more oil to carry off some of the heat.
Secondly, some folks will run a little richer overall after switching while still getting the same or better power than they did before and that tends to reduce the engine heat somewhat.
Ed M.
More power - more heat.
Two things come into play that can counteract this fact. When you switch to a higher nitro fuel you will need to richen the needles a bit. This not only lets more fuel into the engine, but more importantly more oil to carry off some of the heat.
Secondly, some folks will run a little richer overall after switching while still getting the same or better power than they did before and that tends to reduce the engine heat somewhat.
Ed M.
01-27-2006, 06:40 PM
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RE: Higher nitro %=cooler running?
In my understanding though, higher nitro percentage requires less a lesser amount of air to achieve ignition so there would be no need to lean an engine, if anything you might have to richen.
There have been numerous articles written on this subject, one in Xtreme RC mag, I think, last year. It was quite enlightning, I just can't find it amoungst my junk.
There have been numerous articles written on this subject, one in Xtreme RC mag, I think, last year. It was quite enlightning, I just can't find it amoungst my junk.
01-28-2006, 02:53 AM
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RE: Higher nitro %=cooler running?
ORIGINAL: bentgear
To answer the original question, if you switch to a higher nitro fuel, all other things being equal the engine temp will go up.
More power - more heat.
Two things come into play that can counteract this fact. When you switch to a higher nitro fuel you will need to richen the needles a bit. This not only lets more fuel into the engine, but more importantly more oil to carry off some of the heat.
Secondly, some folks will run a little richer overall after switching while still getting the same or better power than they did before and that tends to reduce the engine heat somewhat.
Ed M.
To answer the original question, if you switch to a higher nitro fuel, all other things being equal the engine temp will go up.
More power - more heat.
Two things come into play that can counteract this fact. When you switch to a higher nitro fuel you will need to richen the needles a bit. This not only lets more fuel into the engine, but more importantly more oil to carry off some of the heat.
Secondly, some folks will run a little richer overall after switching while still getting the same or better power than they did before and that tends to reduce the engine heat somewhat.
Ed M.
Spoken from experience. I couldn't say it any better myself!
02-03-2006, 03:02 AM
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RE: Higher nitro %=cooler running?
Actually we proved this before that running higher nitro (to a point) results in more power and less heat. The article showed the the performance was similar and temps were lower. Things aren't always what they seem. I'll look up the issue we did the testing on if anybody wants to check their back issuues.
02-03-2006, 10:03 AM
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RE: Higher nitro %=cooler running?
The article showed the the performance was similar and temps were lower
I think the whole key is similar performance. If you tune for max the only thing the temp can do is go up.
Ed M.
