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  1. #1

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    New beginner model for MAAC

    I realize that many MAAC commitee people are building them already but I just wanted to share this because I believe it's better than the traditional MAAC Cub:

    www.rubber-power.com/How-to-fly-a-rubber-band-powered-airplane.htm

    Feedback is most welcome. Especially any pictures or videos if you've already built a Squirrel.

  2. #2

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    RE: New beginner model for MAAC

    Should there be some mention of insurance implications? Some municipalities ban the flying of model aircraft "OF ANY SORT" in public parks. Flying illegaly or without landowners permission means no insurance coverage.

    Ed S

  3. #3

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    RE: New beginner model for MAAC

    Thanks for the note.

    I don't think there is much to worry about with a rubber-power airplane. It's much lighter than a frisbee and moves much slower.

    I suppose the municipal police could come and ask me to stop but I'll worry about that only if it happens.

    Who'd live in a city that would ban frisbees, baseballs and such.

    Here's a video of me in the park when there are lots of kids playing soccer.

    http://www.rubber-power.com/Gallery12.htm

    I think a soccer ball is much more dangerous.

  4. #4

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    RE: New beginner model for MAAC

    Darcy,

    Ed some good points and it is always worthwhile giving some thought and consideration to safety.

    I have been asked by the authorities not to fly my noisy radio control model airplane in a couple of locations - even though both times it was a catapult launch free flight chuck glider, one time at an Ottawa park and the other at a school yard.

    I don't have the reference to hand but the discussion comes up frequently about the Ottawa city bylaw with regards to this subject (and I paraphrase and perhaps incorrectly) that "flying model airplanes is not permitted on puplic property within the Ottawa City limits". A quick search of the Ottawa bylaws will confirm or deny and add clarity.

    Soccer balls, base balls, golf clubs, base ball bats, hockey sticks (and on and on) can be dangerous. In fact, I see teenagers walking around with baseball bats all the time and obviously appear to have no intent on playing baseball (not a ball or glove in sight). They will often carry them around (as many do with anything that can be used as a weapon) for the intimidation factor - but it isn't against the law to do so. It is always hard to draw the line and unfortunately when the knee jerks and causes "yet another bylaw" to come into existance, silly laws about flying model airplanes or kites in the city parks are created.

    Never say never

    cheers, Graham

  5. #5

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    RE: New beginner model for MAAC

    Thanks for the extra notes Graham.

    I think it's a complaint driven system. If you somehow generate a complaint then the police will respond. They will not tell you if they have a complaint or the source.

    I suppose some municipalities might have rules about model planes. But then we have to decide what a model plane is as well. And clearly they would have a definition that would not exclude frisbees, paper airplanes, balls, baseballs and such.

    If a 4 year old child has a plastic fisher price air plane (with multi colored propellers -vroom vroom), I suppose the police could stop him.

    A rubber-power plane such as a Squirrel weighs a few grams and there is not external apparatus for control or power.

    I fly at all sorts of places indoor and out and I'm always being careful to not generate a complaint. Here's my "pub version": http://www.rubber-power.com/Gallery14.htm

    But I always do all the PR and use a lot of caution before actually deploying a model plane.

    Actually, about 15 years ago, I remember flying a Gentle Lady glider at Lebreton Flats using a 500 foot high start. A police approached me (obviously with concerns for the danger of model planes). I was very nice to him and casually handed him a Gentle Lady explaining that it weighs about a pound and it moves very slow (as he already observed). He said to take it easy and moved on his way.

    I suspect that he had not received a complaint but had just spotted the GL on his patrol and came to investigate to make sure that there were no dangerous models.

    I can imagine that if you go to a soccer field these days or a skool, there will always be some prude that things your going to frighten their children. So I guess it's important to always do the PR.

  6. #6

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    RE: New beginner model for MAAC

    I fully realise I am not much fun. School fields were mentioned, Despite the fact that we, the taxpayer pay for them, School playing fields are private property. No permission to use them, no warning signs posted, NO INSURANCE.

    I do not make this stuff up!

    ED S

  7. #7

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    RE: New beginner model for MAAC

    It's not that municipalities and school boards and rec associations are against model aviation. The problem comes down to insurance and getting sued. Generaly, it's quite the opposite any well-prepared approach generally will get permission to use the facilities. HOWEVER, on thing that they are sticky about is that in order to get access to the use of these facilities for anything other than walking around, you need to provide proof if insuarnce coverage.

    MAAC's own policies WRT to schoolyard/Park/open-space activities have been driven by the same problems which has resulted in the current rules being what they are and not what they were five, ten, twenty or thirty years ago.

    Essentially, in order to fly under the MAAC insurance umbrella, you have to meet the basic requirements: permission of property owner, flying location registered through a MAAC-chartered/.registered club, and posting of the safety signage.

    Even simple rubber-powered models have the ability to cause some damage (it has happened, especially in the sue-happy US). All it takes is someone who got fearful (eg, plane flies into face or near them without causing any physical damage), and BAZOOM! lawyers crawling out of the woodwork and dragging you into court.

    I'm not running down the idea of updating the Delta Dart (a design thirty years old), but commenting on your flying them in a location that is probably not going to be covered by MAAC insurance.

    Which means that you are flying at your own risk. Also, you probably do not have a permit to do so from the people who actually own the property.

    I've got four large parks near to me and all have similar signs posted: none say "no planes" but the list of what's not allowed is quite long. The soccer fields also include "no baseball playing."

  8. #8

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    RE: New beginner model for MAAC

    I've seen kids as young as six run their 'nitro" cars in school yards and often stop to watch and chat with them. Sometimes I ask if they have any problems with complaints or getting kicked off. Not once in at least a half dozen encounters has anyone ever mentioned being bothered by neighbours or the local constabulary. Myself, I fly 1/2A at the local park. I always fly with a muffler and these small engines on diesel are even milder in tone. In 15 years of park flying small engines, not one single time have I ever had a complaint. Once a big cop came over and I thought,,, trouble,,, but no, he just wanted to watch and chat and find out more. Every single summer I get a dozen or so interested parties stop by and take up the entire flying session with questions, comments and general amazement that such things existed. I send them to the local club.

    I find this kind of odd. An amazingly well performing, unique, rubber model that's far superior to the Delta Dart and the only comments are safety? Safety with a RUBBER powered model? How on earth could such a model ever require an insurance claim ?????

    Imagine a youngster showing up at a MAAC, club field with this rubber model and wanting to fly it. Sorry kid, MAAC membership required.
    Andy Woitowicz
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  9. #9

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    RE: New beginner model for MAAC

    Hi Andy,

    You're right, there isn't much of a concern for safety. Rubber-power models are a safe activity and people don't mind them. In fact, as I said, I fly all over the place and don't have any problems.

    In fact, that's one of the reasons I made the Squirrel. You can build it from the kit with no tools. Just craft glue, scissors and glue stick. It weighs 3 grams. Propellers vary but tend to be around 2.2g. The elastic motor weighs about 1.1g. It flies about a fast walking pace. In fact, with the Delta Dart, the propeller shaft bends frequently when it hits things. The Squirrel uses the same propeller and it doesn't bend the shaft because it's lighter and flies slower.

    People just aren't seeing the picture very clearly. I suppose in their cities the authorities publish "Squirrel incident reports" so they're getting all excited about it.

    I wont worry about them until parliament hill is lined with protesters with signs reading "Stop the Squirrel!". Or when they are stopping people at the park with Frisbees asking for proof of insurance.

    Darcy




  10. #10

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    RE: New beginner model for MAAC

    No matter how light the model or how slowly it flies ... hypothetically it can still damage or blind an eye, for example. If you're not insured ... good luck.

  11. #11

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    RE: New beginner model for MAAC

    You should make your post of the risks of model airplanes in all the forums. Perhaps even where some of the models are over 10g.

  12. #12

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    RE: New beginner model for MAAC


    Weight has no significance. Ever seen a car swerve as a small HLG bounced off the windshield? Think about the possible ramifications of that.

    Responsible flyers are already cognizant of potential risks no matter the weight of the model. That's why they ensure they have some insurance, whether it be MAAC or valid coverage from 'home oweners' - in that instance make sure you have confirmation in writing, don't rely on an agent's verbal assurance.

    In this day and age when people will litigate if they even get startled by something ... to ignore insurance is burying your head in the sand



  13. #13
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    RE: New beginner model for MAAC


    Good to see some creative juices flowing, good job with the Squirrel!

    ORIGINAL: Applehoney

    No matter how light the model or how slowly it flies ... hypothetically it can still damage or blind an eye, for example. If you're not insured ... good luck.
    How slow are you? OMG it wieghs 6 grams!!!

    Ed, with all due respect, why bring up "no don't fly there" stuff? Maac....blah blah blah. Things can be looked into too deep hypothetically. Dwell on the negatives, you'll find more. Hes havin' clean safe fun. Did you not have one when you were a kid? I don't remember disabling anyone or thing other than the plane itself. Thankfuly we don't have the same sue thy nieghbour even if I gotta fake it attitude the yankees have.

    You do realize they sell simillar rubber powered planes at dollar stores, ANYONE can build and launch one.

    Paper planes can cause more havok!

    As far as Ottawa cops go, the one giving you the ticket is some PO'd pee on with a chip on the shoulder. I will not start with the language thing, either. That being said, most of the time you can have a chat with them and all would be fine.

    I like that little thing and I just may have to try one for my 3 1/2 year old.

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  14. #14

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    RE: New beginner model for MAAC

    Still no Squirrel accident reports.


  15. #15
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    RE: New beginner model for MAAC

    I remember reading a "Safety First" column in a 1980's "Model Aviation", which was about a club that flew model aircraft behind a movie theatre. No, these were no 1/2 A single channel models, but 60 sized sport models that they were flying above a mall!
    I think there was also something about one of them balancing propellers by firing up the engine an grinding the prop on the sidewalk.
    Oh boy. What could possibly go wrong?
    "Any landing you can walk away from probably wasn't that exciting to watch"
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  16. #16

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    RE: New beginner model for MAAC

    Still no accident reports.

  17. #17

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    RE: New beginner model for MAAC

    I was talking to the city bylaw people for Ottawa (capital of Canada).

    They bylaw that refers to model airplanes is bylaw 2004-276 5(10). http://ottawa.ca/residents/bylaw/a_z...lities_en.html

    You can search that page for the word "plane".

    "No person shall operate a motor driven model airplane, helicopter, rocket or boat except in an area designated by the Director for that purpose."

    And in their own words: "A rubber band is not a motor".



  18. #18
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    RE: New beginner model for MAAC

    That still leaves radio controlled sailplanes, rubber powered ships (I assume this means I can fly a 60 inch competition ship or rubber speed model) as well as any other hand-launched model. Pretty restrictive but not nessesarily safer.

    I think it's getting rediculous: I was watching CBC and they were going on about how kites are banned in a community as "the strings pose a hazard". Wow. Thank God they banned those - people were getting killed in droves! OUR municipality put a fence around a vintage fireless steam locomotive, one of only two left in Canada, with the intention of scrapping it as it posed "a danger to our children". But falling off the 5 metre slide located in the same park is perfectly safe.

    ??????

    Graeme
    "Any landing you can walk away from probably wasn't that exciting to watch"
    Sig Kadet Brotherhood #8

  19. #19
    DeferredDefect's Avatar
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    RE: New beginner model for MAAC

    Well I HEARD that a Squirell caught a thermal in Toronto, flew for a while, crashed into a nuclear power plant, which subsiquently exploded, and half of the world has died from radiation poisoning. Luckily the 5 year old responsible has MAAC and was a member of the local club, so it's all good.

    Seriously though, great work on the design. It flies great, and I may have hooked my brother on model flying!
    "Any landing you can walk away from probably wasn't that exciting to watch"
    Sig Kadet Brotherhood #8

  20. #20

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    RE: New beginner model for MAAC

    Thanks for the note! Yes, that's what the Squirrel is for.

    To get your friends hooked!



    Here's a flight from a week or so ago:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3cY9dQ81CM

  21. #21

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    RE: New beginner model for MAAC

    Wow! That was an awesome flight! I built a couple of squirrels and they do fly nice. But, me thinks after watching your flight I need to do some trimming, LOL.

    Frank
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    Is that as fast as it goes?

  22. #22

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    RE: New beginner model for MAAC

    Thanks for the note!

    Check out this flight. They didn't even wind it up much...


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOrF2zeA19I


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