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RE: Why does the AMA have to grow? - 10/8/2010 2:37 PM   
Luchnia


 

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ORIGINAL: aeronca52

That episode so disgusted me on AMA I never joined after that. The club folded after about 4 years. I'm still flying out of my backyard. And that's why they don't have my membership.


Wow...do you know what happened to them after they disbanded? In my area the AMA thing is pretty strong too. If you are not AMA, you really are nothing.

It is just attitude people have because they are ignorant about AMA. It could be any org and it just becomes a mentality with clubs. I think AMA could help this mentality by not making everyone think they are RC and without them RC could not exist. Now that there are so many small electrics that can be flown in most anyone's back yard I think we will see changes more and more to this hobby.

These small planes will get more people involved in RC and probably hurt AMA unless the AMA can figure out how to force those folks to join AMA like is done with current RC clubs. I think it is going to be very difficult though.

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RE: Why does the AMA have to grow? - 10/8/2010 5:36 PM   
KidEpoxy



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Status: offline 		Perhaps you guys need to revisit some of the Freq Sharing threads
to realize that wrong attitudes regarding AMA clubs having special entitlement to the air and the freqs,
is neither isolated nor ancient history

...

Luchnia
quote:

I think AMA could help this mentality by not making everyone think they are RC and without them RC could not exist. Now that there are so many small electrics that can be flown in most anyone's back yard I think we will see changes more and more to this hobby.

AMA will move to 2.4g and then not concern itself with the minor problems of a few of its members being FreqBullies on 72. As you just saw here, folks will defend a problem by saying its a small/isolated problem, rather than admit there is a small problem and try to get it fixed

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RE: Why does the AMA have to grow? - 10/8/2010 5:49 PM   
dbcisco



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ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy
AMA will move to 2.4g and then not concern itself with the minor problems of a few of its members being FreqBullies on 72.


In the latest document from the AMA to the FCC regarding new Part 95 rules. They didn't even mention keeping any frequencies.


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RE: Why does the AMA have to grow? - 10/9/2010 5:00 AM   
K-Bob


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy

Perhaps you guys need to revisit some of the Freq Sharing threads
to realize that wrong attitudes regarding AMA clubs having special entitlement to the air and the freqs,
is neither isolated nor ancient history


The threads where it was suggested that a miscreant move in close to established club fields forcing entire groups of people to suspend flying until they reached frequency sharing agreements with rogue, unorganized groups of interlopers. I think choco donuts and java were determined to be the key ingredient for co-operation and harmony.

Yeah, folks should really read that crud again.



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RE: Why does the AMA have to grow? - 10/9/2010 8:13 AM   
dbcisco



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Status: offline 		"until they reached frequency sharing agreements with rogue, unorganized groups of interlopers"

The AMA clubs should only work out frequency sharing agreements with other AMA clubs?

Assume a kid is flying his Eflite CX (usually 72.830/52) at his house next to your field. You going tell that kid you own that frequency and he can't fly his heli or post at your field not to use that frequency?

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RE: Why does the AMA have to grow? - 10/9/2010 8:24 AM   
RCKen



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Status: offline 		Ok guys, once AGAIN the some have managed to drag a thread WAY off topic. Time to get back on topic.

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RE: Why does the AMA have to grow? - 10/9/2010 8:39 AM   
dbcisco



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Status: offline 		Back to the thread.
My position is that the AMA does not "need" to grow.
There is little evidence IMO that what the AMA "does" is directly related to or affected by the number of members.
If the AMA became little more than the museum, archives and educational services, it would still be fufilling its primary purpose, possibly even better than it is now.

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RE: Why does the AMA have to grow? - 10/9/2010 3:29 PM   
Luchnia


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dbcisco

Back to the thread.
My position is that the AMA does not ''need'' to grow.
There is little evidence IMO that what the AMA ''does'' is directly related to or affected by the number of members.
If the AMA became little more than the museum, archives and educational services, it would still be fufilling its primary purpose, possibly even better than it is now.


This is an excellent point. Why should the AMA grow in all aspects of RC? If it did follow closely its mission/purpose/goal (whatever you want to call it) then it would probably be fulfilling its purpose in a far greater way. This is something to really think about. Then science and education would be number one and they could get out of the areas that are losing propasitions (sp?). I think the root problem is that promoting through science and education is not really the goal of the AMA.

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RE: Why does the AMA have to grow? - 10/12/2010 6:51 AM   
aeronca52


 

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She done me wrong.
Never messed with 'em again.
All girls are bad,
since mine done me wrong.
Whoa-o-ho-oo..

Other than alienating me further from the AMA, what's your point?

Oh yeah, the other thing that annoys me is any reference to non-AMA modelers as 'outlaws'. Often columnists in MA use that term to strengthen their argument (or intimidate) the cause that said individuals will be better people if they join the AMA. Why can't they be nice and civil and just say non-members? Why be irritating? Why incite an attitude? It just drives the wedge deeper......

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RE: Why does the AMA have to grow? - 10/12/2010 8:33 AM   
littlecrankshaf



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quote:

ORIGINAL: aeronca52


Other than alienating me further from the AMA, what's your point?

Oh yeah, the other thing that annoys me is any reference to non-AMA modelers as 'outlaws'. Often columnists in MA use that term to strengthen their argument (or intimidate) the cause that said individuals will be better people if they join the AMA. Why can't they be nice and civil and just say non-members? Why be irritating? Why incite an attitude? It just drives the wedge deeper......

You have illuminated one of the biggest reason I post here.

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RE: Why does the AMA have to grow? - 10/12/2010 10:09 AM   
Bozarth


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: aeronca52

Often columnists in MA use that term to strengthen their argument (or intimidate)......


Hey, I was a MA columnist and I never used that term! Please don't be so general.

Kurt

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RE: Why does the AMA have to grow? - 10/12/2010 5:54 PM   
tinner1


 

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quote:

aeronca52
Oh yeah, the other thing that annoys me is any reference to non-AMA modelers as 'outlaws'. Often columnists in MA use that term to strengthen their argument (or intimidate) the cause that said individuals will be better people if they join the AMA. Why can't they be nice and civil and just say non-members? Why be irritating? Why incite an attitude? It just drives the wedge deeper......

I can ask the SAME question of the non AMA guys! As supporters we are constantly referred to with derogatory terms, "zombies", "morons", "mindless sheep", people who "have less than a third grade SPed education", and so on. These are just a few that I can think of quickly that have been aimed at me personally. BOTH sides name call so PLEASE get off your "white stallion" and see reality, the non AMA guys are no "saints".....

And I would like to see a reference to the MA articles where flyers are referred to as "outlaws". I for one will contact the AMA (I post often telling people the right way to get results is through DIRECT contact with the AMA HQ) and let them know the author should no longer be writing articles and would suggest others do the same, but we need a name and article to show proof. I'm NOT saying it doesn't happen, just that I don't remember ever seeing it. And the AMA web site has a MA PDF library with old issues and articles that we can see and read online, so if your statement is true it will be easy to prove, and then we can do something about it.

< Message edited by tinner1 -- 10/13/2010 12:29 AM >

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RE: Why does the AMA have to grow? - 10/14/2010 4:54 AM   
aeronca52


 

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Status: offline 		Having been set back on my heels from that last post I have re-thought my words and must apologize about using the word 'often' when referring to MA columnists using the word outlaw. I would like to instead use the words 'from time to time', meaning once in a great while. Sorry if the word 'often' gave the impression it happened every other issue.

Having said that I stand by my altered statement and the issue of being referred to as an outlaw when I did nothing wrong in my eyes. However I have the strong impression the (current) AMA feels otherwise since I did not join. My biggest attitude problem is I feel the AMA looks upon itself as a self appointed national organization which all modellers must join to be doing the right thing.

In other words, if you don't belong to the AMA you are incorrect in your modelling ways. Only by joining can you attain salvation.

Apart from all that jibberish I just typed here's a few more reasons I don't join.
* I'm just a sport flyer, never entered a contest and never will. Most of the published activities are of competitions.
*I don't want to belong to a club. Too many rules. I like flying alone. While cutting the grass I charge some batteries, when the cutting is done shove the mower under a tree to cool off and fly for a few minutes.
*I have home owners insurance which covers my model flying and full size boating so that's not an issue.
*There's 3 reasons and I'll quit now since I did say 'a few reasons'.

The written word can be interpreted many ways without hearing the inflections the writer intended. So if you read this post, before you take any offense be aware it was written in a lighthearted and informative tense. Let's keep this an open, nice, discussion, and not flame each other.

Thanks.

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RE: Why does the AMA have to grow? - 10/14/2010 5:27 AM   
dbcisco



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quote:

ORIGINAL: aeronca52
... I feel the AMA looks upon itself as a self appointed national organization which all modellers must join to be doing the right thing. ....


The biggest evidence for this belief and the attitude of the AMA towards non-AMA comes from the AMA itself in the ARC document from April 1, 2009 reccomending that the FAA ban all model aviation that is not through themselves (or national model aviation organizations, although AMA boasts of being the only one in its own literature).
Quoted here (bolding mine):


"AMA believes this approach is flawed in that it fails to recognize the substantial diversity of the hobby, establishes unrealistic and unenforceable restrictions, and leaves absent a safety surveillance program to oversee the activities of those modelers who choose not to participate in a formal aeromodeling structure/organization More importantly, as a baseline set of standards, these limitations have the inherent potential of imposing a devastating impact on the aeromodeling activity and the hobby industry."

Seems to me the AMA told the ARC/FAA that non-AMA model aircraft people are a safety hazard and ruining the hobby and should not be allowed to fly at all unless they join the AMA.

< Message edited by dbcisco -- 10/14/2010 7:52 AM >

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RE: Why does the AMA have to grow? - 10/14/2010 2:38 PM   
bkdavy



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Status: offline 		You are quoting the AMA out of context, and without regard to the other recommendations, as well as assuming that the proposal forbids formation of another organization. All your points have been argued elsewhere, and are incorrect. Your quote is correct, but after that you take it down the wrong path.

When the AMA says the section 3 would have a devastating effect on the hobby, they are referring to the overly restrictive height limits, weight limits, ban on turbines, etc. That is what the FAA and UAV industry representatives wanted put forward. The AMA strongly pushed to get the ARC to put in section 2 in order to preserve the current standards. The only way the FAA will accept those standards is if there is a recognized structure to ensure compliance with those standards. An individual on their own will not be sufficient from the FAA persepective.

The AMA simply uses itself as an EXAMPLE. If you want to form a group of people in Lansdale, establish a set of standards, submit them to the FAA for approval, go for it. Otherwise, live within the restrictions of Section 3.

Brad

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RE: Why does the AMA have to grow? - 10/14/2010 3:48 PM   
dbcisco



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Status: offline 		That is the AMA's own words (highlighted in yellow in the version on the AMA website). Are you saying the gov't is lying in the ARC document? They say the AMA did not want tier that allowed non-cbo flyers and wanted only one tier for CBO only.
Don't like what the AMA said, then take it up with the AMA. Anyone can read it for themselves and decide what the AMA recommended. It is available here.

< Message edited by dbcisco -- 10/14/2010 8:54 PM >

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RE: Why does the AMA have to grow? - 10/14/2010 3:52 PM   
dbcisco



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quote:

ORIGINAL: bkdavy
You are quoting the AMA out of context, and without regard to the other recommendations, as well as assuming that the proposal forbids formation of another organization.

You mean the recommendations in case the FAA ignores their request to ban all non-CBO flying?
Who said it bans other CBOs? I said the AMA is currently the only CBO that fits the AMA's description of a recogniaed CBO in the document (keyword is "national").


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RE: Why does the AMA have to grow? - 10/14/2010 4:46 PM   
phlpsfrnk



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quote:

ORIGINAL: dbcisco

That is the AMA's own words (highlighted in yellow in the version on the AMA website). Are yousaying the gov't is lying in the ARC document? They say the AMA did not want tier that allowed non-cbo flyers and wanted only one tier for CBO only.
Don't like what the AMA said, then take it up with the AMA. Anyone can read it for themselves and decide what the AMA recommended. It is available here.

Number one; Quit being so defensive and using words like "lying".

Number two; I've read the document and several others leading up to it and many articles and statements after and do not reach the same conclusion you seem to. You need to step back and look at the hole and not get hung up on your interpretation of one statement.

Number three; I agree with bkdavy and whether you agree with us or not is irrelevant at this point because the FAA has rejected the recommendations and is going forward with the two tier approach. Believe what you will but outside of a CBO you will have to live with stricter regulation.


Frank

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RE: Why does the AMA have to grow? - 10/14/2010 5:44 PM   
dbcisco



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Status: offline 		I read the entire document and much more. The AMA said what they said.
I am not being defensive, those who want to make that paragraph go away are being defensive.
I ask everyone to read it for themselves and decide for themselves.
What is so terrible about letting people think for themselves?
You have no idea what the FAA is going to do at this point nor does the AMA. The NPRM will be released in March 2011 according to the Federal Govt.
If you have some actual proof that the FAA has made an interim release of information or an authentic FAA document, I would be happy to see a link to it posted here.

< Message edited by dbcisco -- 10/14/2010 7:23 PM >

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RE: Why does the AMA have to grow? - 10/14/2010 5:58 PM   
KidEpoxy



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Status: offline 		a) AMA dont need to grow to do all the stuff listed in this thread.
b) Even if upcoming sUAS regs give AMA the option for AMA to choose to create itself some Tier2 regs, sUAS had no mention of a larger member count in the 8 listed s2 CBO requirements... if AMA chooses to create a second set of rules(omb) to exclude themselves from s3 regs they can do so even with FEWER members than we have now

Why does the AMA have to grow?
Not for any reason associated with the sUAS situation.

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RE: Why does the AMA have to grow? - 10/14/2010 6:08 PM   
tinner1


 

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Status: offline 		Brad,

GIVE UP!!

"FACTS" roll of this guy like water off a ducks back.....He has an interpretation (agenda) that we can see as flawed but he never will....

NOWHERE have I personally seen or read ANYTHING saying the AMA wants to "rule the hobby"!! and I think the majority of readers would agree....

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RE: Why does the AMA have to grow? - 10/14/2010 7:06 PM   
dbcisco



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""The AMA establishes unrealistic and unenforceable restrictions, and leaves absent a safety surveillance program to oversee the activities of their members. More importantly, as a baseline set of standards, these limitations have the inherent potential of imposing a devastating impact on the aeromodeling activity and the hobby industry."

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RE: Why does the AMA have to grow? - 10/14/2010 10:40 PM   
tinner1


 

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dbcisco,
Lets put the shoe on the other foot and see what happens.

Another "ATTEMPT" to deflect the truth. Stick to the topic....Your Honor.....I rest MY case.

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RE: Why does the AMA have to grow? - 10/15/2010 6:50 AM   
oskartek


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: aeronca52

My biggest attitude problem is I feel the AMA looks upon itself as a self appointed national organization which all modellers must join to be doing the right thing.

In other words, if you don't belong to the AMA you are incorrect in your modelling ways. Only by joining can you attain salvation.

Thanks.



Yes, return to the fold brother, all is forgiven. Now drink this kool aide and everything will be better and the AMA will grow by one more.

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RE: Why does the AMA have to grow? - 10/15/2010 7:05 AM   
dbcisco



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Status: offline 		IF the AMA membership dropped to half of what it is now, what could really change? Still be able to afford to send a guy to Washington to sit on an FCC or FAA committee once every 30 years. Maintain the insurance program for half as many members. Charter half as many clubs. Hold smaller nationals. Print half as many magazines. Sell half the 110 acres. Sanction half as many events. Combine two top paid positions into one.The only ones who would really suffer would be the employees in Muncie who would be laid off. The regular employees are the only ones who have anything really important at stake, all the rest of us have is a hobby to worry about.

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