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RE: Why does the AMA have to grow? - 10/1/2010 8:02 PM   
GerKonig


 

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ORIGINAL: tinner1

Thanks Gerry, for some eye opening points no one has brought up so far. I think the key point you bring up is the direct link between the AMA and AOPA memberships. When I was a kid there were about 10 private airports scattered around a 20 mile radius. None of those exist today....NO Airports, NO contact with aviation.....


DFuring the last decade we lost one to a Industrial park (10 minutes from my house). You can still see the runway, now it is a street with buildings on both sides. The other (15 minutes) they turned into an "over 55 housing" development. The airfield had no traffic, maybe 5 cars during the week. the development messed up everything... Two oter airfields disappeared but that was sone time ago. Every year, there are less and less... Very sad.

Where would I look for new AMA members? 2 places: EAA (they know how to build) and AOAPA (they are a lot):-) Every retired full size pilot is a potential modeler:-) Many quit because they cannot affort full size anymore (modelling can be cheap), and many because they loose the medical or they feel that they are slowly loosing it, and ground themselves (know 2).

Gerry

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RE: Why does the AMA have to grow? - 10/1/2010 8:52 PM   
cj_rumley


 

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ORIGINAL: tinner1

For those that haven't read this thread from the very start, THE TOPIC is......

Why does the AMA have to grow?

By reading the latest posts it's hard to see that fact...............


Point taken.

AMA need to grow to pay the salaries, costs and expenses of the Marketing Dept. that is dedicated to making AMA grow.

Yeah, I know that's facetious and circular reasoning..........but...........

The largest growth activity in AMA in recent times has been in the Marketing and related PR arenas. Seems the EC and HQ staff have answered the topical question and found reasons for growing AMA sufficient to their own satisfaction.

AMA needs to grow because AMA says so. Anybody got a problem with that?

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RE: Why does the AMA have to grow? - 10/1/2010 9:07 PM   
KidEpoxy



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quote:

AMA needs to grow because AMA says so. Anybody got a problem with that?

Isnt the 'they' of the AMA saying we need to grow,
actually 'us', since we are the AMA?

Members dont have to caotao (cowtow?) to the mandates of what AMA says,
because we are the ones that decide what 'AMA' says.
If we dont want the org to grow, then we have AMA say that.

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RE: Why does the AMA have to grow? - 10/1/2010 9:37 PM   
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Status: offline 		Being a newby here and a past mamber of the AMA..Perhaps we should re-think this...It is a Contitutional Right to pursue Liberty and Happiness, so with that said..The Federal Gov't should mandate the AMA shouild provide liability insurance for us that cant afford it, and those who can,  should pay it for us....

< Message edited by Prop Washer -- 10/1/2010 10:13 PM >

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RE: Why does the AMA have to grow? - 10/1/2010 9:40 PM   
tinner1


 

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quote:

AMA needs to grow because AMA says so. Anybody got a problem with that?

I am NOT arguing with you here but I'm having a little trouble following your statement above. I have to ask where you see the "AMA" is saying, "AMA needs to grow because AMA says so"? I am asking the question "Why (in the opinion of its members) does the AMA have to grow". And I agree with KidEpoxy when he says...

quote:

Members dont have to caotao (cowtow?) to the mandates of what AMA says,
because we are the ones that decide what 'AMA' says.
If we dont want the org to grow, then we have AMA say that.

I think it is trying to grow, but I personally don't think it is for any "business" reason, ie profits, more jobs etc. I truly think the AMA is composed of people who are modelers and are promoting the hobby, and are trying to better it (the hobby) for all involved. I would be interested in seeing where you saw that the AMA "itself" wants to grow and for what reason.

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RE: Why does the AMA have to grow? - 10/1/2010 9:44 PM   
tinner1


 

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Being a newby here and a past mamber of the AMA..Perhaps we should re-think this...It is a Contitutional Right to pursure Liberty and Happiness, so with that said..The Federal Gov't should mandate the AMA shouild provide liability insurance to us that cant afford it, and those who can should pay it for us....Hmmmmm, sounds faguly famaliar...

After reading what RC-Ken posted about staying "on topic", what part of this implication towards the Obama Presidency is "on topic"?

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RE: Why does the AMA have to grow? - 10/1/2010 9:51 PM   
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ORIGINAL: Prop Washer

Being a newby here and a past mamber of the AMA..Perhaps we should re-think this...It is a Contitutional Right to pursue Liberty and Happiness, so with that said..The Federal Gov't should mandate the AMA shouild provide liability insurance for us that cant afford it, and those who can,  should pay it for us....Hmmmmm, sounds  famaliar...


Now THAT makes me think of a bunch of things I could get up on a soap box and have several major rants!

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RE: Why does the AMA have to grow? - 10/1/2010 10:08 PM   
Prop Washer


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tinner1

quote:

Being a newby here and a past mamber of the AMA..Perhaps we should re-think this...It is a Contitutional Right to pursure Liberty and Happiness, so with that said..The Federal Gov't should mandate the AMA shouild provide liability insurance to us that cant afford it, and those who can should pay it for us....Hmmmmm, sounds faguly famaliar...

After reading what RC-Ken posted about staying "on topic", what part of this implication towards the Obama Presidency is "on topic"?


I would conclude from all that has been written here:

a) Most join for the insurance
b) Bring outlaws into the fold as they cannot be rehabilitated
c) Sorry you dont agree with my solution to a  non existant problem or
d) How to flog a dead horse in ten page lessons

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RE: Why does the AMA have to grow? - 10/1/2010 10:12 PM   
TimBle


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Luchnia


quote:

ORIGINAL: TimBle

??? Did I say something to offend?

I firmly believe supporting a body like is central to the success of any sport or hobby. Theres always challenges and even more challengers who think that it should be different.
As long as disagreements are civil and in the interests of the hobby then bring it on. Surely...


Keeping in focus of the topic of growth, do you believe the AMA must grow or just believe in the support to keep them maintained is most important? Also, how do you feel about there being other bodies/orgs that would be central to the success of RC? In other words, what about competition to the AMA and would that be good for the hobby? Would that support better growth to the hobby as a whole or should AMA be the only show in town?



Whether it should be the only show in town is really subject to the FAA or another body that oversees all flying in the US.
Over here our SACAA is happy with have one sub committee (SAMAA) to oversee model aviation. We too have people who simply don't want to be part of it but do so because clubs require it.

I pay around $15 a month for persnal liability insurance. The SAMAA insurance premium is 1/10th of that and it offers more cover, legal counsel etc. Its a better deal.

At the end of the day the skies are governed by one central body who delegates the control and management of various flying dsciplines to sub committees that are mandated to provide that administration. I don't know what your set up is across the pond but I suspect its similar.
Creating more bodies to do the same thing is sounter productive since the admin of the skies is not a business, its a governance function. You may have more than one party but you only have one government....
Its also counter productive to have people trying to do thing (although perhaps with good intentions) behind the back of the AMA. This creates disharmony and shows the higher powers that there is a lack of maturity in the hobby. Dangerous when you're dealing with government types.

Should the AMA or in our case SAMAA grow?
I believe that grow is indicative of a healthy hobby. Decline is indicative of a hobby in decline whether that be in number or in politics. it shows a decline.

I often hear people claim "i'm not interested in politics, I just want to fly." To this I respond " those who fail to grasp the significance or influence of politics and politicians are destined to be lead by fools."
At the end of the day, what we have is what we create wrt to AMA or SAMAA or whichever governin body concerns you. It belongs to the members and ultimately illustrates the health of the hobby.

I fly for a fantastic club. Recently, just as I joined the club infact, we had some politics. A few felt they did not like our chairman so attempted a coup. This created a lot of disharmony that is still being felt and the club is suffering. Ultimately if it does not settle down it could lead to us having no airfield, and no club. But as with many things in life people often fail to see further than the colourful dot in the sky that is their model.
Somthing we need to realise is that RC flyers are part of a large community of aviators. If we behave like children we could be expelled fromthat community with little damage to anybody but ourselves. We are not major player in any economy or in any politics.

So what is it about the AMA that people have grievances with? Surely its nothing that can;t be overcome by open dialogue with the right people.

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RE: Why does the AMA have to grow? - 10/1/2010 10:17 PM   
tinner1


 

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c) Sorry you dont agree with my solution to a non existant problem

It's NOT that I don't agree with your "solution to an non existant" problem, but rather I don't understand how it pertains to the "topic" of why the AMA has to grow.....THAT"S all. "Why it has to grow" is a question that I am asking, NOT a "problem" as you seem to make it sound. Sorry you would prefer to think I was arguing with you rather than the fact that I was asking how it pertained to the topic. I still don't see it but PLEASE don't try anymore to answer my question. I guess I'm just too dumb to understand the answer anyway........

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RE: Why does the AMA have to grow? - 10/1/2010 10:22 PM   
cj_rumley


 

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ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy

quote:

AMA needs to grow because AMA says so. Anybody got a problem with that?

Isnt the 'they' of the AMA saying we need to grow,
actually 'us', since we are the AMA?

Members dont have to caotao (cowtow?) to the mandates of what AMA says,
because we are the ones that decide what 'AMA' says.
If we dont want the org to grow, then we have AMA say that.


How did "we who are the AMA" do regarding the decision to launch (and now keep on life support) the growth program known as PPP?

Cletus

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RE: Why does the AMA have to grow? - 10/1/2010 10:23 PM   
Jim Thomerson



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Status: offline 		I think the AMA ought to grow to include those people who have never heard of the AMA, but who would enjoy being members.

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RE: Why does the AMA have to grow? - 10/1/2010 10:26 PM   
Prop Washer


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tinner1

quote:

c)  I guess I'm just too dumb to understand the answer anyway........


 After 233 + responses, its apparant  you really dont want an answer to your open ended question.., but ok...

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RE: Why does the AMA have to grow? - 10/1/2010 10:27 PM   
tinner1


 

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Status: offline 		TimBle,
ALWAYS good to hear from other modelers around the world! You make some great points. If I understand your intent correctly in my quote of you below...
quote:

So what is it about the AMA that people have grievances with? Surely its nothing that can;t be overcome by open dialogue with the right people.

I think the bold should refer to people at the AMA directly. These forums are good for conversation, but contacting Muncie is the real way to get things done, don't you think?

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RE: Why does the AMA have to grow? - 10/1/2010 10:34 PM   
tinner1


 

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Status: offline 		I'm sorry you couldn't just answer a simple question....Another question, "Why edit in extra comments on you previous post?
quote:

d) How to flog a dead horse in ten page lessons


I AM TRULY sorry that you feel I don't want an answer to the thread topic,"Why does the AMA have to grow", and by posting your politically motivated post you just took the thread off topic....and THAT is why I asked you
quote:

After reading what RC-Ken posted about staying "on topic", what part of this implication towards the Obama Presidency is "on topic"?

Don't answer it just make this personal and attack me for asking......

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RE: Why does the AMA have to grow? - 10/1/2010 10:45 PM   
TimBle


 

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ORIGINAL: tinner1

TimBle,
ALWAYS good to hear from other modelers around the world! You make some great points. If I understand your intent correctly in my quote of you below...
quote:

So what is it about the AMA that people have grievances with? Surely its nothing that can;t be overcome by open dialogue with the right people.

I think the bold should refer to people at the AMA directly. These forums are good for conversation, but contacting Muncie is the real way to get things done, don't you think?



Well thats a problem because one person's perception of a problem may be a non event to the great body of people who make up the various clubs.
Its always worthwhile starting a dialogue by having it with the people closest to you in the club. If it has merrit then raise it to your club committee and if it still has merrit then it will be raised by the club chairman to the governng body. Hence it is important as with all things in life, to grasp the political environment and to fire as few bullets as possible.
When we perceive a problem it is always worthwhile soundingit out with people we know will challenge our points or view. Close friends will seldom disagree. Usually a neutral or independant person. I always use my fiance! She is fantastic at getting to the real issues because she comes at a problem from a totally neutral perspective.


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RE: Why does the AMA have to grow? - 10/1/2010 11:06 PM   
cj_rumley


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tinner1

quote:

AMA needs to grow because AMA says so. Anybody got a problem with that?

I am NOT arguing with you here but I'm having a little trouble following your statement above. I have to ask where you see the ''AMA'' is saying, ''AMA needs to grow because AMA says so''? I am asking the question ''Why (in the opinion of its members) does the AMA have to grow''. And I agree with KidEpoxy when he says...



Actions speaking louder than words, tinner; hope that clarifies. Most current AMA programs (my perception of course) are directed at AMA member and perhaps more-so revenue growth. PPP, TAG, even the response to the FAA ARC, for examples. If not for growth, why all the expenditure on marketing? I'm not at all clear on what the marketeers, both paid staff and committees, are supposed to be selling and to whom. Any thoughts? I think the answer to that question is very germane to the question posed in your original post, and may lead to valid answers not yet put forth in this thread.


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RE: Why does the AMA have to grow? - 10/1/2010 11:14 PM   
KidEpoxy



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quote:

So what is it about the AMA that people have grievances with? Surely its nothing that can;t be overcome by open dialogue with the right people.

AMA last year provided us with a Members & Muncie only discussion board
so AMA leaders and staff can have another route for direct dialog with the membership.
Those are the 'right people' you refer to, the folks here(members & nonmembers) can only indirectly instill change or action from HQ... such as the Paintball in years gone by, or Conflict Of Interest last year.

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RE: Why does the AMA have to grow? - 10/2/2010 1:54 AM   
tinner1


 

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Status: offline 		Hi Cletus,
I guess we first have to establish whether the AMA is trying to grow to build a bigger and better organization for it current and future members, or whether it is approaching growth as a business entity? I have said before that I believe the AMA is ran by modelers who really and truly want to further model aviation, an idea that a lot of posters here take issue with. They may have to apply business practices to achieve the goal of making the AMA better for its members, BUT I still believe the main motive for their growth is better services to its members. There is no question the AMA IS spending money on growth, and a lot of posters ask "on what", why not this or that to make it grow. That is why I am asking Why does it "have" to grow? The AMA started the PPP which had/has a lot opponents. Did the PPP flyers join? If they did, was it worth it to them for the monies the AMA invested in starting it? Are these expansion programs REALLY needed? or are they a waste of resources that could be better spent somewhere else?

When we can come to terms as to the definition of growth from the top of the AMA, we can then decide if they are going about it in the proper way. But for now, I just wanted to see if the general modeling community thought that growth was necessary for the AMA to servive? and "Why" they felt it "has" to grow....

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RE: Why does the AMA have to grow? - 10/2/2010 2:05 AM   
Stickbuilder



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quote:

ORIGINAL: tinner1

quote:

Being a newby here and a past mamber of the AMA..Perhaps we should re-think this...It is a Contitutional Right to pursure Liberty and Happiness, so with that said..The Federal Gov't should mandate the AMA shouild provide liability insurance to us that cant afford it, and those who can should pay it for us....Hmmmmm, sounds faguly famaliar...

After reading what RC-Ken posted about staying ''on topic'', what part of this implication towards the Obama Presidency is ''on topic''?


Man, you are reading more into that comment than I can find.
Bill, AMA 4720

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RE: Why does the AMA have to grow? - 10/2/2010 2:31 AM   
cj_rumley


 

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ORIGINAL: tinner1

Hi Cletus,
I guess we first have to establish whether the AMA is trying to grow to build a bigger and better organization for it current and future members, or whether it is approaching growth as a business entity?


Hi Tinner,

You can safely presume (as in bet the farm on it) it is established that "AMA is trying to grow to build a bigger and better organization for it current and future members." Nobody with any authority over AMA direction is going to say the motivation is any other reason.

quote:

When we can come to terms as to the definition of growth from the top of the AMA, we can then decide if they are going about it in the proper way. But for now, I just wanted to see if the general modeling community thought that growth was necessary for the AMA to servive? and "Why" they felt it "has" to grow....


Good question(s), good thread.

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RE: Why does the AMA have to grow? - 10/2/2010 2:55 AM   
tinner1


 

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Status: offline 		Good Posts.......Good conversation.....Thank You......

Don

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RE: Why does the AMA have to grow? - 10/2/2010 10:17 PM   
pilotchute


 

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Status: offline 		The cost of a lawyer in a criminal trial is easily $30K. A civil trial, then double it. Lawyers and professionals needed to negotiate with those that would restrict our hobby are costly. Never has our hobby been under more scrutinty by the Federal government than today due to the terror threat. And just who is working with the bureaucrats that would restrict r/c? The individual or clubs? Nope. Primarily the AMA. This activity is not cheap. We are not talking about a bunch of staffers sitting on their tush at headquarters. I for one don't want to find myself restricted to flying a 24" electric in the future or finding notams so restrictive a lawyer need interpret them. Nope, I'm happy to pay my dues and in return I'm getting one hell of a value from the AMA. I'm hoping when the economy takes a turn we will see membership increase.

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RE: Why does the AMA have to grow? - 10/2/2010 10:28 PM   
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ORIGINAL: pilotchute
And just who is working with the bureaucrats that would restrict r/c?

The AMA sat in on an ARC/FAA meeting and sent a letter.
They sent a letter to the FCC on the new Part 95 regs, they didn't even mention keeping FM frequencies.
Such hard work.

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RE: Why does the AMA have to grow? - 10/2/2010 11:17 PM   
bkdavy



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ORIGINAL: dbcisco
The AMA sat in on an ARC/FAA meeting and sent a letter.
They sent a letter to the FCC on the new Part 95 regs, they didn't even mention keeping FM frequencies.
Such hard work.


This is about the third or fourth time I seen you post this statement. Do you have ANY idea what's required to review a change to the federal regulations, and try to determine what unintended consequences it might have? Do you REALIZE that the APPROPRIATE METHOD for COMMENTING on PROPOSED CHANGES to Federal Regulations is EXACTLY what the AMA did? Do you have any idea how much time AMA members WORKED on the ARC with the FAA? That committee met over a TWO YEAR period. They didn't just sit in on one meeting.

Stop this crap. Get the H- out of the AMA if it offends you so much. AND STOP belittling the efforts that are being made in good faith by those willing to serve on your behalf.

Brad

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