RE: USA: Masters Pilots not moving to F3A??

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RE: USA: Masters Pilots not moving to F3A?? - 9/27/2010 5:48 AM

LD24

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ORIGINAL: mups53

Larry I don't view FAI as a move up. FAI or Masters are both the top classes in the available to fly in here. Heck an Advanced flier can fly FAI if they so choose without it effecting their Advanced status.
I actually prefer the competition locally in Masters. We have rivarly's that I look forward to. It is the Top class of the AMA classes. One is not a sandbagger or anything else bad for choosing to fly in this unique US only class. Mike

Mike, I understand flying FAI doesn't prevent a pilot from going back to the original AMA Class. I also agree with your post. I didn't mean to imply any pilot is sandbagging for not moving to FAI. AMA rules have Masters as the highest class of US competition. Everyone has their reason and as I said, there is no right or wrong here. All the opinions stated are within the rules...

I obviously don't fly Masters. Although I elected to take my Kaos 40 (Vs not flying) in D4 Champs and fly Intermediate, doesn't mean I'm not competitive. If given the same circumstances as Arch or others, I could see myself making the same decision.

My concern is mainly the idea of Masters becoming more difficult because Masters Pilots are no longer challenged. My opinion is the level of difficulty should remain a constant. The cause and effect would certainly be pushed down to the lower classes to close the gap if Masters was on a path to increase the level of difficulty because the skill level of Masters is high.

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RE: USA: Masters Pilots not moving to F3A?? - 9/27/2010 2:38 PM

Doug Cronkhite

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I guess I have a different perspective of unknowns than most around here. I personally REALLY enjoy them. I love the challenge of going out and seeing how well I can fly 'off the cuff' so to speak WITHOUT the hours and hours of practice. IMAC gets away with it in large part because they've always been a part of it. They set the expectation a long time ago and people just understood it as being a part of the event. In many ways, I've seen the pattern community over the years be VERY resistant to change of any kind. Things are getting better, but you can still see it to some extent.

Tony is 100% correct though, that the unknown is no longer an individual event. A good caller can make the flight so much easier, while a bad/unprepared caller can destroy the flight. There's a reason Steve Rojecki added an award for callers to the TOC in the later years.

IMO, the real problem with FAI is flying 2 VERY LONG, and very complex sequences. This places an extreme workload on both pilots and judges for the event. Shorter sequences would be a real plus, but I can't see that happening.

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RE: USA: Masters Pilots not moving to F3A?? - 9/27/2010 4:42 PM

mups53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LLD

quote:

ORIGINAL: mups53

Larry I don't view FAI as a move up. FAI or Masters are both the top classes in the available to fly in here. Heck an Advanced flier can fly FAI if they so choose without it effecting their Advanced status.
I actually prefer the competition locally in Masters. We have rivarly's that I look forward to. It is the Top class of the AMA classes. One is not a sandbagger or anything else bad for choosing to fly in this unique US only class. Mike

Mike, I understand flying FAI doesn't prevent a pilot from going back to the original AMA Class. I also agree with your post. I didn't mean to imply any pilot is sandbagging for not moving to FAI. AMA rules have Masters as the highest class of US competition. Everyone has their reason and as I said, there is no right or wrong here. All the opinions stated are within the rules...

I obviously don't fly Masters. Although I elected to take my Kaos 40 (Vs not flying) in D4 Champs and fly Intermediate, doesn't mean I'm not competitive. If given the same circumstances as Arch or others, I could see myself making the same decision.

My concern is mainly the idea of Masters becoming more difficult because Masters Pilots are no longer challenged. My opinion is the level of difficulty should remain a constant. The cause and effect would certainly be pushed down to the lower classes to close the gap if Masters was on a path to increase the level of difficulty because the skill level of Masters is high.

Thanks Larry that sounds fair to me. Good point. Mike

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RE: USA: Masters Pilots not moving to F3A?? - 10/1/2010 6:31 AM

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I know this is a thread about moving up or not, but what about moving back? In one week I will be eligible for AARP. The last nats I attended I did make the FAI finals but justs as in the TOC if you dont take a prepared caller with you your at a awful disadvantage. I just dont have the time to fly and dont have the will power to plan for a full blown FAI finals attempt at the nats. So I will ask for myself and other other closet FAI fliers, does it look bad for guys like myself to return to our roots and move back to Masters? Kinda go full circle in life dont you? I might even have to wear a diaper again someday!

Bill Cunningham

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RE: USA: Masters Pilots not moving to F3A?? - 10/1/2010 7:20 AM

Dean Pappas

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Hi Bill,
I dunno ... a diaper again? Depends, I guess.
Okay, bad jokes aside, I see your point.
Granted, I don't compete these days but I do remember thinking that once Unknowns became part of the FAI landscape, the emphasis was unavoidably shifted from flying to flying plus teamwork.
We know that the "price" of this is the inability of a pilot to travel/compete alone. The question is, What do we buy for this price?
Does it really help pick out the best pilot? Does it inject more luck? It's very very good to draw late in an Unknown flight order so you can learn from the others!
Has it made Pattern, in some small part, into a speed reading test for the caller?
Is it worth trashing the "night before the Finals" banquet?

This is the discussion we should be having between ourselves, and depending on the result, afterward with the members of the Technical Sub-Committee.

Regards,
Dean Pappas

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RE: USA: Masters Pilots not moving to F3A?? - 10/1/2010 7:36 AM

Doug Cronkhite

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The amount of preparation an unknown requires does take a fair amount of the fun away from a contest, I'll grant you that. At the TOC, we spent HOURS going over things, and by the time we felt prepared, it was usually way past bedtime and certainly past any time available to go out and enjoy an evening.

I don't personally feel like there should EVER be any stigma associated with flying the class you feel capable of anymore. If you can't commit the time to fly FAI, and/or cannot have the consistent support necessary from a caller, then there should be no issue with flying Masters. Tony would know more than anyone though if this is going on.. Has he taken any grief about not flying FAI, or are people just happy to have him competing at all? Certainly in the full-scale aerobatic world there is ZERO headache from a pilot who wants to move down a class, but usually this is due to a self-perceived safety issue more than anything. Of course in full-scale, there are no callers, and pilots are reading their own call sheet in the cockpit.

Do unknowns better determine who the better pilot is? I think so to a point. They certainly don't show who is the better practiced, refined, and consistent pilot, but they DO show who can fly their airplane better without the practice. I'm not sure this necessarily makes them better overall though. I always flew unknowns quite well myself, so I'm sure I'm rather biased.

The end result of all of this though, is if you took away the unknown, I SERIOUSLY doubt the top of the podium would change very much on a consistent basis. The best pilots, are the best pilots, and they'll continue to rise to the top. The only difference is you may get guys like Tony back flying FAI, and he'll certainly shake things up a bit.

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RE: USA: Masters Pilots not moving to F3A?? - 10/1/2010 8:24 AM

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Just wonder how one prepares for unknown. Seems a fine-tuned simulator can be useful?

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RE: USA: Masters Pilots not moving to F3A?? - 10/1/2010 8:36 AM

Ryan Smith

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It is illegal to actually fly an unknown sequence before the contest flight. No actual flying, no simulator, no nothing. The only think you can do is rehearse with a stick plane.

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RE: USA: Masters Pilots not moving to F3A?? - 10/1/2010 4:38 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: billtulsa

I know this is a thread about moving up or not, but what about moving back? In one week I will be eligible for AARP. The last nats I attended I did make the FAI finals but justs as in the TOC if you dont take a prepared caller with you your at a awful disadvantage. I just dont have the time to fly and dont have the will power to plan for a full blown FAI finals attempt at the nats. So I will ask for myself and other other closet FAI fliers, does it look bad for guys like myself to return to our roots and move back to Masters? Kinda go full circle in life dont you? I might even have to wear a diaper again someday!

Bill Cunningham

Bill why would it be bad? You'd qualify for the masters tour if you were a golfer.Nobody I know would question your motive because its correct. I also think with a little work you'd be a top contender at the nationals. Your style and smoothness are geared toward the patterns we fly.
So I truly hope you try it. I think you would find it enjoyable and FWIW I think you'll be surprised how competitive the class actually is. You have a few guys in your area that will challenge you too. Quite often at local contests the masters class is more competitive than FAI these days.
Mike Mueller

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RE: USA: Masters Pilots not moving to F3A?? - 10/1/2010 5:03 PM

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Hey Bill,

I have to agree with Mike (Mups!)   Try it, you'll like it.   I dropped back and flew masters a few weeks ago in a local contest (no FAI in attendence) and got my ass handed to me.   The competition is very high, the pattern is as difficult or more difficult than the P pattern in FAI, and truthfully, it was a lot of fun.

I'm only flying FAI becuase it's pushing me to learn more. Rollers and intergrated looping/rolling maneuvers are something I want to master, so flying FAI forces me to work on those. But I have no illusion of being in the hunt for the top 3 spots.   I would like to make the finals at some point, but even that will require a stepped up level of dedication if I want to be serious about it.

I don't think you'll ruffle the slightest feather flying Masters. Tony probably took some flack his first year (and perpetual harassment, but that's just for being Tony!) but I'm sure that's past as it's been clear that he does have competition. He's been victorious, but I think he'd be the first to tell you he can't make even the slightest mistake or there's a half dozen guys right behind him ready to jump ahead.

I've been a strong advocate that people should fly the class they're best prepared to fly and have the most enjoyment flying. I really feel that sandbagging is a myth, or at worst, a seldom seen reality.   I WOULD like more to try FAI... but that's because we'd like to see more friendly competition in our area. But I'd also like a few people to strongly consider moving back a class. We've had several in our area move up...only to find that they're really not ready. Not ready because the level of time and skill they have will not allow them to step up to that next level, even though they hover near the top of the lower class.   And being last...and unsafe...makes people quit out of frustration and embarrassment.   I'd much rather see a perennial winner in a class be the benchmark for someone trying to move through that class, then to lose a competitor. Just my opinion.

try it!! We'd love to have you back flying!   And call Combs... I've been trying to get him to come back and do the same.

-Mark

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RE: USA: Masters Pilots not moving to F3A?? - 10/1/2010 5:03 PM

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Hey Bill,

I would be very glad to see you and others flying Masters at the Nats! Just like old times again. We've got Radcliff flying again, you work on Lakin, I've talked to Helms. Maybe VonLinsowe would return. I wish Dave Brown's health was a lot better. We could have a real Senior Circuit!

Flying masters revived my sagging interest in competing in pattern. F3A just became way too much work then I could handle. It did turn in to work, not fun, at least for me. As to what other pilots think, well to some extent, I don't care. I'm sure some resent it, but I know many enjoy it. To each his own. But now not only do I fly, but I'm CD'ing two pattern meets a year, helping others when I can. I would hope that is considered an overall positive.

Hope to see you around!

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RE: USA: Masters Pilots not moving to F3A?? - 10/1/2010 7:11 PM

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Bill,

Diapers probably so, it just Depends on when.

I just got back in this year. Last year for me was 1989, flew FAI in the old AMA turnaround style pattern with a Joker. Now in Advanced. I moved back in at the level recommended by a local FAI flyer.

Danny Jackson

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RE: USA: Masters Pilots not moving to F3A?? - 10/2/2010 12:59 AM

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Danny, miss having the WACO contest as you fly at a beautiful field.

Chuck

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RE: USA: Masters Pilots not moving to F3A?? - 10/5/2010 2:52 AM

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Chuck,
A Waco contest is coming back soon

Stay tuned for details.

Scott

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RE: USA: Masters Pilots not moving to F3A?? - 10/5/2010 6:29 AM

sc204

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I have always been against pointing out with a forced move up in class. Forces many pilots to move up well before their skills are ready. Too much depends on local competition. If the local advanced pilots are average to weak in general then the person pointing out may be as well, and not ready to move to masters. If you want to force the winner of the Nats in the lower classes to move up, be my guest. They have obvviously proven that they have mastered the skills needed. IMAC has the same issues. Locally one of the "kids" will win the Northeast region in Intermediate, but he didn't do too well at the Nats. Perhaps if he tried again next year he might have a real shot at winning that class, but he can't IMAC rules force him to move up because he has beaten the local competition. If FAI was the AMA class above Masters then I would feel the same way, but it is not. Masters is the top AMA class even though the difficulty is not as high as it could be for the top class. Basically FAI is still considered the top class where the most difficult sequences are flown. Initially my gut reaction was to say someone like Tony who has won the Nats in Masters should move up to FAi again, but after giving it some thought, I don't think he or anyone else should unless they really want to. If the other top competitiors in Masters, Arch, George, and so on want to win the class then they should fly against the best to do so. If I was at that level I would. As to why I wouldn't move to FAI, I haven't mastered masters. I also no longer have the time or drive to fly more that once a week. I love the competition in Masters, I like the large class to fly against.

Oh and who is this Dean Pappas guy anyway

Stuart C.

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RE: USA: Masters Pilots not moving to F3A?? - 10/5/2010 3:58 PM

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Right Stuart,

Just because you win at the local contest trail doesn't mean you're ready for the jump. Using the amount of people you beat as the basis for advancement is silly. What if all the people in a given class are less than stellar fliers?

How about flying in a district that has a ton of great fliers in a class. You could be in the top 3-4 fliers in the nation and not point out if the top two guys in the country show up at every contest with you.

I advocate the average scoring across the nation, If you are in the top 10-15% of the national average in scoring over a season of flying, then you need to move up the next year. Raw scoring is a far better method IMHO.

Gathering the Intel wouldn't be a huge problem, maintaining it might be. Someone would have to do it.

Perhaps the CD would forward the info to the district VP (NSRCA) and they tabulate and send to the national database. I'd think this could all be done inside the scoring systems we have in use now and a simple email.

Simple to me anyway, I don't have to figure out how to do it.

Tim

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RE: USA: Masters Pilots not moving to F3A?? - 10/5/2010 4:13 PM

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IMAC is already doing by regions. I will agree that should be done across the country. Check this link:

http://www.mini-iac.com/Regions/SouthCentral/SCContestResults/tabid/135/Default.aspx

Vicente "Vince" Bortone

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RE: USA: Masters Pilots not moving to F3A?? - 10/5/2010 4:14 PM

sc204

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mastertech

Right Stuart,

Just because you win at the local contest trail doesn't mean you're ready for the jump. Using the amount of people you beat as the basis for advancement is silly. What if all the people in a given class are less than stellar fliers?

How about flying in a district that has a ton of great fliers in a class. You could be in the top 3-4 fliers in the nation and not point out if the top two guys in the country show up at every contest with you.

I advocate the average scoring across the nation, If you are in the top 10-15% of the national average in scoring over a season of flying, then you need to move up the next year. Raw scoring is a far better method IMHO.

Gathering the Intel wouldn't be a huge problem, maintaining it might be. Someone would have to do it.

Perhaps the CD would forward the info to the district VP (NSRCA) and they tabulate and send to the national database. I'd think this could all be done inside the scoring systems we have in use now and a simple email.

Simple to me anyway, I don't have to figure out how to do it.

Tim

Not agreeing or disagreeing that we should use national raw scores for advancement, although it does seem to warrent discussion. How to do it would take some work but might not be as difficult as you think. It would have to start with what is done in IMAC. Everyone has to use the same scoring program, it is not optional. (Mospt pattern contests use PAACS but they do not have to.) The IMAC scoring program at the end of the contest spits out HTML files that include everyones individual scores. These files are uploaded to the web with a new link made on the contest list webpage. After a contest once they are uploaded to the web you can look at all of your maneuver scores and compare them to others in your class. If you had a similar system where the output of data could be uploaded through a database system (would take some coding by web smart people which NSRCA has on the website group) then you could do anything that you wanted with the data including comparing a single persons raw scores to the national average.

Stuart C.

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