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RE: Kaos 25 Build (Full Plans Added) - 12/9/2010 3:46 AM   
hllywdb



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From: Vero Beach, FL, USA
Status: offline 		Got in a half dozen flights today. The Norvel is really the perfect power choice for it. At this point I am calling it finished as I wouldn't really change anything else. It does pretty much anything I would ask a Kaos to do. Cut back to only 1/2" elevator throw and slow to 2/3 throttle and it will do a vertical 8 in about the same space as my old control line Ringmaster. No bad habits, wide envelope, close to unlimited vertical, and lands like a dream. It doesn't even do the tail shimmy when you transition to full power like the 40 does. I'm including the updated plans in full PDF. Enjoy!

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RE: Kaos 25 Build (Full Plans Added) - 12/9/2010 2:27 PM   
hrrcflyer


 

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Status: offline 		Bill,

Awesome little Kaos you have there and congrats on your successful build and maiden flights.... I love the classic look of the color scheme too. Did you do anything different for color on the bottom of the wing? I'd love to scratch build a plane that I drew up and figured out one day. To me, it would be the ultimate thrill. Thanks for taking the time to do a build thread, I've really enjoyed following along as you built your Kaos....

David

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RE: Kaos 25 Build (Full Plans Added) - 12/9/2010 4:05 PM   
hllywdb



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Status: offline 		Thanks David,

You should definately try it, it is rewarding, although frustrating at times as well. I am not quite good enough to go straight from plans to a full build without a few adjustments along the way, there always ends up being a few things I couldn't see from just the drawing. Here is the full color scheme. It is real easy to orient in the air.

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RE: Kaos 25 Build (Full Plans Added) - 12/9/2010 4:07 PM   
YellowBlueBird


 

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Status: offline 		Is the dihedral brace shown on post 33 and in the plans straight across the top or is there an angle to it? It appears straight on top and angled on the bottom. Are my eyes playing tricks on me?

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RE: Kaos 25 Build (Full Plans Added) - 12/9/2010 4:16 PM   
hllywdb



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Status: offline 		The brace is tapered on the bottom. The wing is built upside down so it is flat on the top and the "dihedral" comes from the slight taper as the ribs get smaller towards the tip. This was a common way to build in the late sixties and seventies.

You can either cut the slots like I did, or wait until after you join the wings to sheet the bottom and add the second part of the leading edge. This would make it easier to see and clamp.

Bill

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RE: Kaos 25 Build (Full Plans Added) - 12/9/2010 6:00 PM   
hrrcflyer


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hllywdb

Thanks David,

You should definately try it, it is rewarding, although frustrating at times as well. I am not quite good enough to go straight from plans to a full build without a few adjustments along the way, there always ends up being a few things I couldn't see from just the drawing. Here is the full color scheme. It is real easy to orient in the air.


Bill,

I see what you mean about easy orientation. Looking at yours really brings back memories of my first Kaos. It was a kit built plane that I put a NIB YS53 in I won at a raffle during one of our club events. Man that was a good flying plane until the connection between my brain and my fingers failed....... Later I bought the Tower Kaos, but it just wasn't the same.

Unfortunately for me, I don't even have time to put a BARF together any more. I have a partially built Great Planes Illusion, with a YS60, Hatori pipe and MK rertacts all sitting here waiting fo me to finish and it's killing me not having time to work i\on it....

David

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RE: Kaos 25 Build (Full Plans Added) - 12/9/2010 7:24 PM   
kdubose


 

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Great job!
-KD

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RE: Kaos 25 Build (Full Plans Added) - 12/9/2010 7:53 PM   
doxilia



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quote:

ORIGINAL: hllywdb

The brace is tapered on the bottom. The wing is built upside down so it is flat on the top and the ''dihedral'' comes from the slight taper as the ribs get smaller towards the tip. This was a common way to build in the late sixties and seventies.

You can either cut the slots like I did, or wait until after you join the wings to sheet the bottom and add the second part of the leading edge. This would make it easier to see and clamp.

Bill

I was just thinking about this Bill. Thanks for clarifying that up. Do you happen to know how much dihedral the wing taper amounts to (distance from table to tip with the wing top level)?

I was fooling around with your plans a bit in anticipation of a recent auction win. In answer to your question a few days ago, look what the postman just brought in! Any performance figures on these puppies (rpm, plug, nitro, prop, etc.)? Is a 4 oz tank sufficient given their low fuel consumption?

I must say that these (not so little) Russian engines are some of the best engineering I've seen come from out East. Then again I've never had a Russian engine and I believe they actually produce a number of pretty good ones. The question is now to go "this side of the pond" (K&B) or "that side of the pond" (Norvel)! I hope this doesn't start a thread dispute!

David.

P.S. The RCU image parser is broken again. I had to upload the photos one by one in order for them to be resized properly.

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RE: Kaos 25 Build (Full Plans Added) - 12/9/2010 8:03 PM   
doxilia



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Status: offline 		Bill,

two questions about this engine's carb:

  • It doesn't have an idle adjustment. Is it set to idle reliably at ~2K rpm?
  • The fuel nipple is pointing downward on my carb. Is that normal or should it be rotated to point backward (toward the cylinder)?

I like the dropped muffler design - nice if the engine is mounted upright as in the Kaos. I suspect that it may interfere with the fuse in side mounted installations.

David.

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RE: Kaos 25 Build (Full Plans Added) - 12/9/2010 8:26 PM   
hllywdb



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Status: offline 		Thanks Kirt, you will totaly enjoy it!

David,
The tabletop measurement will simply be the difference in heigth between the root and tip rib sitting next to each other.

As to numbers, I am getting 17.5k on a 9X4 and 18.8k with a mousse can, and mine is well worn. I've seen people get 19k on a 9X4 with a tight one and over 20 with the BB.

I am running an APC 8.5 X 5.5 right now at 15.5k. It's a great balance between speed and thrust. I've got unlimited vertical now so I haven't even bothered with the pipe.

As to tank size. I am running the 4oz Hayes in it. I haven't timed any flights but yesterday someone at the club asked me "If I was planning on staying up for a 1/2 hour?" Don't think it would go that long. I think with a pipe I would want the 6oz Dubro.

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RE: Kaos 25 Build (Full Plans Added) - 12/9/2010 8:34 PM   
hllywdb



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Status: offline 		David,
I don't think the nipple will work pointed back, it gets to close to the block. I have both of mine pointed up and slightly back, makes fueling easy.

I have no clue how they do it, but their motors from the .074 up idle rock solid without any need for adjustment. They do make a 2 needle carb for it, but I haven't heard anyone say one is better than the other. I have one on a Kadet Senioreta, and you know how slow you need to get those to land. I just realy love these motors and it's a perfect fit for the Kaos.

Bill

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RE: Kaos 25 Build (Full Plans Added) - 12/9/2010 9:52 PM   
doxilia



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quote:

ORIGINAL: hllywdb

Thanks Kirt, you will totaly enjoy it!

David,
The tabletop measurement will simply be the difference in height between the root and tip rib sitting next to each other.

As to numbers, I am getting 17.5k on a 9X4 and 18.8k with a mousse can, and mine is well worn. I've seen people get 19k on a 9X4 with a tight one and over 20 with the BB.

I am running an APC 8.5 X 5.5 right now at 15.5k. It's a great balance between speed and thrust. I've got unlimited vertical now so I haven't even bothered with the pipe.

As to tank size. I am running the 4oz Hayes in it. I haven't timed any flights but yesterday someone at the club asked me ''If I was planning on staying up for a 1/2 hour?'' Don't think it would go that long. I think with a pipe I would want the 6oz Dubro.

Bill,

thanks for the answers. I figured the dihedral was due to the rib difference - just thought you might have measured it off the table (I'll measure the ribs - I was being lazy).

Those are good figures and an APC 8.5 x 5.5 sounds just right - I was debating between an 8x6, 9x4 and 9x5. Your prop seems to be the best blend of these three.

Good call on the tank - I figured we could get away with 4 oz. The specs on the AX-25 (not sure if that is the BB version and different from the Big Mig which I believe is the same engine you have) state 20 fl oz/hr fuel consumption but I'm not sure if I trust these specs - they seem to be a little intermixed with the other engines (weights, props, etc.) In any case, if it consumes according to those specs, 4 oz would give 12 minutes - that's a pretty decent flight. What nitro content are you using? Notice any nitro content preference on them?

Is the BB an option on the engine? I don't think mine has a front BB in it (at least not visible from the front). Maybe rear bearing?

It's quite nice how they've used a teflon plate behind the drive washer. The nut and prop washer assembly is quite clever too.

First RC engine I have without an idle adjustment - cool. (oops - actually the K&B doesn't either!)

Maybe you mentioned it already but what did the dry AUW come out to?

I have a Mac's 3.5 cc muffled pipe on its way for experimentation on the K&B 18. I had to try it since specs claim 1.15 BHP @ 19K on a TP and 30% nitro. Nice engine too - dual BB, Schnuerle ported and... on closer observation it also has a single needle air bleed idle carb! The carb bore is a tad larger than the NV's carb - might be better suited for the pipe.

David.

P.S.

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RE: Kaos 25 Build (Full Plans Added) - 12/9/2010 11:23 PM   
hllywdb



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Status: offline 		Hi David,

I think the fuel consumption is based on WOT. With that kind of power in this model I am at 1/2 throttle a lot of the time. I'm not even using full throttle on very big loops.

They did make a BB version, however I have yet to wear out the bushings in any of these motors. They ended up making far more bushing motors than BB. I think in the end they found that the BB on these motors just added weight without giving any substantial performance or longevity benefits. You will wear out 2 or three piston/cylinders (which will take you forever) before you wear out the bushings. Far superior metal used in these engines than what we are used to, other than maybe the old Fox motors. Be prepared for a long break in, they will just keep getting stronger over the first gallon of fuel.

The prop setup is nice because the prop shaft is replacable. As a bonus, it is also reversable (short threads and long threads) so you can use it as a long shaft or short shaft depending on prop needs.

I have one carb that I bored out to a bigger bore, gets another 1k on the top end, but unless you race, why burn more fuel? Should you decide to go with a pipe, if you look at the right side of the bottom of the case in the front, you will find a casting flat where you can drill out for a timed preassure tap. They really did think of everything when they designed these. Yes, I've become a convert myself, I wish they made a .61

As far as AUW, I came out at 45oz. Probably could shave a few here and there, but I wouldn't as it is still just slightly less than the wing loading of the 60 size. I was tempted to, but glad I didn't as it flies so nice, Joe really did get it right on those.

Bill

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RE: Kaos 25 Build (Full Plans Added) - 12/14/2010 3:04 PM   
hllywdb



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Status: offline 		I have updated the plans to fix a couple of changes I made that doxilia caught that didn't make it to the final plans. Thanks for the sharp eye David!

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< Message edited by hllywdb -- 1/31/2011 11:50 PM >

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RE: Kaos 25 Build (Full Plans Added) - 1/31/2011 8:57 PM   
iAlex


 

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Status: offline 		How well do you think this plane would fly with the K&B Sportster .20? I have one that needs an airframe and the KAOS seems like a good fit.

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RE: Kaos 25 Build (Full Plans Added) - 1/31/2011 9:07 PM   
doxilia



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Status: offline 		Alex,

I would think just peachy. The model can be built to light weight by using 3/32" fuse sides and light tail feathers (built up and sheeted rather than slab sheet). I blew the model up to a 48" span (K30) and expect it to come in at 50-52 oz no more. I was thinking of using a similar engine to the one Bill is using. One can always "power up" if desired.

I guess it also depends what kind of performance you expect - classic Kaos or barn door burner.

I have been working on this models design and plans so I thought I'd throw my 2c in. I made a version (the K30 I hope to build) with an 85% airfoil thickness - it should also change the power requirements somewhat... as well as increase its stall speed somewhat.

David.

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RE: Kaos 25 Build (Full Plans Added) - 1/31/2011 9:33 PM   
hllywdb



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Status: offline 		Hi Alex,

The plane would fly fine with a Norvel 15, with the Novel 25 I can go vertical shortly after take off. With the K&B 20, it will fly like a nice sport plane, capable of most manuvers you would care to try. Use the last plans I posted on this page, as they are updated from the ones on the first page, I have flown both versions and the last plans fly much better. Also pay strict attention to the control throws, you need very little on this plane, trust me!

Bill

PS, post some pictures if you build one

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RE: Kaos 25 Build (Full Plans Added) - 5/10/2012 12:53 AM   
hllywdb



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Status: offline 		OK, a bit late but I finaly got around to shooting a video of it, hey, I've been busy flying. Just to answer the question of what pattern I was flying in the video, I believe it was the 1937 Korean Nationals. It's hard to tell, the document is old and faded. It might not even be Aresti, could be a morse code message from a Brittish Sub Commander. I'm going to keep practicing it anyway in case they throw it in as a tie-breaker..... Anyway, enjoy

http://youtu.be/jSIK5bkaOfc

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RE: Kaos 25 Build (Full Plans Added) - 5/10/2012 2:48 AM   
doxilia



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Status: offline 		Hey Bill,

Good to see you back on the forum. Good flight!

Post some pictures of your pipe setup.

David

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RE: Kaos 25 Build (Full Plans Added) - 5/10/2012 3:24 AM   
hllywdb



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Status: offline 		Thanks David,
Thought it might give you some inspiration for your conservation project!

Bill

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RE: Kaos 25 Build (Full Plans Added) - 5/10/2012 3:44 AM   
doxilia



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Status: offline 		Ahh... Good stuff happening on that front lately!

David

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RE: Kaos 25 Build (Full Plans Added) - 5/13/2012 5:27 PM   
hllywdb



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Status: offline 		Here you go David.
This setup is more on the conservative side. I have another headpipe that I cut back for max RPM, but I like this one better in the air. and it's not like I need any more on the up lines. A few less rpm but as you can see and hear in the video, the throttle response is instant at any rpm. I'm a big fan of tuning in the air, not on the stand.

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