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RE: Idiots in New York, RC plane buzzing Statue of Libe... - 12/14/2010 5:10 AM   
freakingfast


 

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oops wrong thread.

< Message edited by freakingfast -- 12/15/2010 1:26 AM >


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RE: Idiots in New York, RC plane buzzing Statue of Libe... - 12/14/2010 2:59 PM   
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quote:

littlecrankshaf
Is that right??? Hmmm...so you admit AMA help form the new regs...interesting.

Those are YOUR words NOT mine. As Tarasdad pointed out before I could, the AMA was "allowed" to "sit in" on the drafting process but "HAD NO SAY" as to what was going to be passed. As such an "authority" on what is going on , YOU of all people should have known that...BUT why should we let FACTS cloud "rumors"....

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RE: Idiots in New York, RC plane buzzing Statue of Libe... - 12/14/2010 3:02 PM   
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If the AMA had no say, then who threw in the "no metal prop" rule?  Sounds like someting an ^$$ from the AMA would say.

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RE: Idiots in New York, RC plane buzzing Statue of Libe... - 12/14/2010 3:17 PM   
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What exactly is the fascination with some people here about metal props. One person is literally obsessed with them and it seems others are starting to share that obsession.

As far as MA input to the ARC process, they were at the table, but they were but a single voice. How much of that voice the FAA chooses to listen to is anybody's guess.

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RE: Idiots in New York, RC plane buzzing Statue of Libe... - 12/14/2010 3:24 PM   
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Sport_Pilot
Models are too small for the impact terrorists want.

"Models are too Small"? This plane is for sale to individuals in the US. The specs on this plane, (click on "specs" tab) shows it can carry a total payload of 25.35 pounds, with 22.05 pounds of that could be C-4, the rest is fuel. It can fly for up to 10 hours at 71 MPH, or about 700 miles. How big does it have to be to NOT be "too small"?

http://www.troybuiltmodels.com/items/UAVPENGUINB.html

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RE: Idiots in New York, RC plane buzzing Statue of Libe... - 12/14/2010 3:32 PM   
Silent-AV8R



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Fears of terrorism have absolutely nothing to do with the current FAA actions.

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RE: Idiots in New York, RC plane buzzing Statue of Libe... - 12/14/2010 3:46 PM   
Sport_Pilot



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Silent is right this has nothing to do with terrorists.  But terrorists want hundreds of pounds,  25 pounds of C-4 isn't even a good car bomb.  I think the smallest car bombs are around 50 pounds and sometimes hundreds.

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RE: Idiots in New York, RC plane buzzing Statue of Libe... - 12/14/2010 4:05 PM   
Sport_Pilot



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quote:

What exactly is the fascination with some people here about metal props.


It is an example of stupidity at the bargaining table.

quote:

One person is literally obsessed with them and it seems others are starting to share that obsession.


Obsession is not good which reminds me;  I need to lay off this subject for a while.

 

 



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RE: Idiots in New York, RC plane buzzing Statue of Libe... - 12/14/2010 6:07 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: freakingfast

Most laws(rules) only burden the good....evil doers will simply ignore the law. Just what we need is more law where there's next to no problem. At least ten times the number of full-scale aircraft have been struck by golf balls than model planes so lets ban golf courses near air strips.


This is just another agency wanting to get larger and create more gov jobs and in turn alienating more good citizens. You would think the FAA would have their hands full hunting down the knuckle heads firing green lasers at planes. The fact is they love these laser guys, it gives them reason for being. If they really wanted it to go away, they wouldn't talk about it, don't make an issue, just let it fade away. To do so only inspires copycats....and something for feds to do.


It's not evil doers that are causing a perceived problem (evil intent is way too strong, but I fully agree there is next to no real problem). Nor is a fed agency alone in wanting to expand there control to fix that non problem. Consider this, clipped from previous discussion in this thread, that reflects AMA's position and a common theme amongst many followers:
quote:

What the CBO approach is trying to provide is a self regulating approach that provides flyers with some additional latitude when they voluntarily comply with the standards established by that organization. The AMA, in the interest of the AMA members, is working to establish a set of standards that the FAA would find acceptable.


How has voluntary compliance worked out for standards set by FAA, ala AC 91-57?

Will it work out better for voluntary standards set by a CBO whose leadership opted out of voluntary compliance with FAA standards?


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RE: Idiots in New York, RC plane buzzing Statue of Libe... - 12/14/2010 6:32 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cj_rumley

How has voluntary compliance worked out for standards set by FAA, ala AC 91-57?

Will it work out better for voluntary standards set by a CBO whose leadership opted out of voluntary compliance with FAA standards?


AC 91-57 is not a standard. It is advisory guidance. The safety record between model aircraft and full scale aviation has been exemplary operating under the AMA safety code, which demonstates that the "guidance" in AC 91-57 is overly restrictive in the use of the altitude restriction, and that more permissive limits in combination with other aspects of the AMA safety code (the nefarious comma) are perfectly justified.

Brad

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RE: Idiots in New York, RC plane buzzing Statue of Libe... - 12/14/2010 7:45 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bkdavy


quote:

ORIGINAL: cj_rumley

How has voluntary compliance worked out for standards set by FAA, ala AC 91-57?

Will it work out better for voluntary standards set by a CBO whose leadership opted out of voluntary compliance with FAA standards?


AC 91-57 is not a standard. It is advisory guidance. The safety record between model aircraft and full scale aviation has been exemplary operating under the AMA safety code, which demonstates that the ''guidance'' in AC 91-57 is overly restrictive in the use of the altitude restriction, and that more permissive limits in combination with other aspects of the AMA safety code (the nefarious comma) are perfectly justified.

Brad


FAA in para 2 of AC 91-57 says in part "Compliance with the following standards will help reduce the potential for that hazard and create a good neighbor........." Let's just not quibble over semantics.
The safety record between model aircraft and full scale aviation has been exemplary.<<<<<period
AFAIK, exception to FAA guidance ala AMA wrt to altitude restriction has not resulted in any serious conflict with regulated aircraft in the NAS, but I also think that risk exposure has been presented by a very small segment of the aeromodeling population. Most of us, AMA members and public alike, generally do fly below 400 feet, but I'll accept the premise that the objective measure of risk for those that exceed it is statistically small. Perception of risk is another matter though, and I think there are better options than ignoring FAA guidance and fighting over it - there is room for compromise. The brits exempt smaller and presumably more frangible models fom the general ceiling restriction for, example. FAA classification (classes II and III) of UAS differentiates between frangible UAS and those that are more robust. Then there are waivers.......HP rocketry wouldn't exist without that process. There is room for accommodation via negotiation and compromise here, and that seems a much more sensible approach than telling FAA "we know better than you do so delegate the control to us."

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RE: Idiots in New York, RC plane buzzing Statue of Libe... - 12/14/2010 7:59 PM   
804


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cj_rumley


quote:

ORIGINAL: bkdavy


quote:

ORIGINAL: cj_rumley

How has voluntary compliance worked out for standards set by FAA, ala AC 91-57?

Will it work out better for voluntary standards set by a CBO whose leadership opted out of voluntary compliance with FAA standards?


AC 91-57 is not a standard. It is advisory guidance. The safety record between model aircraft and full scale aviation has been exemplary operating under the AMA safety code, which demonstates that the ''guidance'' in AC 91-57 is overly restrictive in the use of the altitude restriction, and that more permissive limits in combination with other aspects of the AMA safety code (the nefarious comma) are perfectly justified.

Brad


FAA in para 2 of AC 91-57 says in part ''Compliance with the following standards will help reduce the potential for that hazard and create a good neighbor.........'' Let's just not quibble over semantics.
The safety record between model aircraft and full scale aviation has been exemplary.<<<<<period
AFAIK, exception to FAA guidance ala AMA wrt to altitude restriction has not resulted in any serious conflict with regulated aircraft in the NAS, but I also think that risk exposure has been presented by a very small segment of the aeromodeling population. Most of us, AMA members and public alike, generally do fly below 400 feet, but I'll accept the premise that the objective measure of risk for those that exceed it is statistically small. Perception of risk is another matter though, and I think there are better options than ignoring FAA guidance and fighting over it - there is room for compromise. The brits exempt smaller and presumably more frangible models fom the general ceiling restriction for, example. FAA classification (classes II and III) of UAS differentiates between frangible UAS and those that are more robust. Then there are waivers.......HP rocketry wouldn't exist without that process. There is room for accommodation via negotiation and compromise here, and that seems a much more sensible approach than telling FAA ''we know better than you do so delegate the control to us.''


I think you are making much more of this 400' thing, especially the ignoring thereof, than is really there.
For nearly 30 years, FAA has ignored us much as we have ignored them, blissfully so on both sides.
Only the advent of the growing sUAS phenomenon has brought attention to us,
not ignoring the 400' advisory.

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RE: Idiots in New York, RC plane buzzing Statue of Libe... - 12/14/2010 9:15 PM   
cj_rumley


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 804

I think you are making much more of this 400' thing, especially the ignoring thereof, than is really there.
For nearly 30 years, FAA has ignored us much as we have ignored them, blissfully so on both sides.
Only the advent of the growing sUAS phenomenon has brought attention to us,
not ignoring the 400' advisory.


I agree that too much is being made of the 400' thing, but it ain't me that's doing it. It is one of three issues that are most often cited as sticking points that stand in the way of agreement between AMA and FAA, and rationalize the CBO thing that they seem dead stuck on.

The other issues in focus that seem to be in the chasm between FAA and AMA are model weight and speed. I think the 25 kg weight thing is a foregone conclusion, as it comes from ICAO and FAA represents the US as a member nation of that international body. Speed limit of 100 mph was proposed by the AMA rep that participated in the sUAS ARC as an Alternate View/Rationale in Section 3.3(7) of the ARC recommendations. If that is not what AMA wants it to be, then what is and how is anybody to know?

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RE: Idiots in New York, RC plane buzzing Statue of Libe... - 12/14/2010 9:31 PM   
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2T97edeQBg here is your 25lbs of c4 it would take out a 3-4 cars close together or do a little damage to a building, this isnt what terrorist are looking for. 

I dont have an issue with what he did but i dont think everyone and their mom should go out and do it, he did it the authorities where ok with it and we get a video that you would never see other wise. If people are to afraid to push the limits than we all need sit in padded rooms with a flight simulator so that we cant hurt anything. Someone said that a servo could have gone out earlier in the thread, but its all what ifs. What if a servo had gone out the 1-2 lb plane would have put a small dent in a car or ,although very unlikely, gave someone a nasty bruise this guy would have dealt with the consequences. Instead of putting all the effort into playing the blame game on an indecent free fpv flight why not enjoy the video?


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RE: Idiots in New York, RC plane buzzing Statue of Libe... - 12/15/2010 1:41 AM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cj_rumley


..........................

The other issues in focus that seem to be in the chasm between FAA and AMA are model weight and speed. I think the 25 kg weight thing is a foregone conclusion, as it comes from ICAO and FAA represents the US as a member nation of that international body. Speed limit of 100 mph was proposed by the AMA rep that participated in the sUAS ARC as an Alternate View/Rationale in Section 3.3(7) of the ARC recommendations. If that is not what AMA wants it to be, then what is and how is anybody to know?


cj, you have misinterpreted this part of the ARC. The alternative view/rationale for the 100 mpH speed limit was put forth by some other entity in the ARC, not the AMA. Given that some in the ARC wanted a 100mph speed limit for the sUAS aircraft, I predict it was the same entity and my guess is that it is the FAA.

http://www.modelaircraft.org/faa/recommendations.pdf

The 100mph speed limit is on page 12, item number 7.

In this version of the document, sections of the ARC where there was disagreement were annotanted with a black dot. Alternative viewpoints and rationale that come from the AMA are highlighted in yellow (plus some other important items for AMA members.) Alternative viewpoints/rationale not highlighted in yellow did not come from the AMA.

If anyone really thinks the AMA suggested or endorsed the proposed 100mph speed limit, I would have to question their good sense....


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RE: Idiots in New York, RC plane buzzing Statue of Libe... - 12/15/2010 1:59 AM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot

Silent is right this has nothing to do with terrorists.  But terrorists want hundreds of pounds,  25 pounds of C-4 isn't even a good car bomb.  I think the smallest car bombs are around 50 pounds and sometimes hundreds.



You haven't been around explosives much, have you? Just as an example, do you have any idea of how much, I'll use C-4 for a simple reference, is needed on a 1/8 scale RC car to kill or seriously wound 50-100 people in one blast? How about the "basic" suicide belt or vest?

I don't understand why so many people seem to think it's all about the big bang.

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RE: Idiots in New York, RC plane buzzing Statue of Libe... - 12/15/2010 1:59 AM   
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If a terrorist wanted to use a model aircraft to cause terror (terrorist - terror - duh) they wouldn't be using explosives. There are other substances that could be carried that would be far, far worse.

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RE: Idiots in New York, RC plane buzzing Statue of Libe... - 12/15/2010 2:02 AM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: paintballer9876

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2T97edeQBg here is your 25lbs of c4 it would take out a 3-4 cars close together or do a little damage to a building, this isnt what terrorist are looking for. 




The charge was neither shaped or focused. Nor was it "packaged" as it could have been.

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RE: Idiots in New York, RC plane buzzing Statue of Libe... - 12/15/2010 3:01 AM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thomas B

quote:

ORIGINAL: cj_rumley


..........................

The other issues in focus that seem to be in the chasm between FAA and AMA are model weight and speed. I think the 25 kg weight thing is a foregone conclusion, as it comes from ICAO and FAA represents the US as a member nation of that international body. Speed limit of 100 mph was proposed by the AMA rep that participated in the sUAS ARC as an Alternate View/Rationale in Section 3.3(7) of the ARC recommendations. If that is not what AMA wants it to be, then what is and how is anybody to know?


cj, you have misinterpreted this part of the ARC. The alternative view/rationale for the 100 mpH speed limit was put forth by some other entity in the ARC, not the AMA. Given that some in the ARC wanted a 100mph speed limit for the sUAS aircraft, I predict it was the same entity and my guess is that it is the FAA.



Thank you Thomas, you are correct, I goofed. I tried to check my recollection of that before posting by reviewing the version on the AMA site, but Adobe Reader accessed via my usual browser Firefox returned the message "File does not begin with '%PDF-'." At your prompting I just looked again using Google Chrome, and was able to view the doc. The yellow highlighting that indicates claim of attribution by the AMA rep is indeed missing from that section. The other mention in the ARC Recommendations of a 100 mph speed limit for the non-MA sUAS cited a determination made by AMA that MA operating at speeds in excess of 100 mph are high performance aircraft. Apparently that is bravo sierra, but it did reinforce my mis-recollection that AMA was the source.


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RE: Idiots in New York, RC plane buzzing Statue of Libe... - 12/15/2010 12:18 PM   
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wrong question I was told


< Message edited by PLANE JIM -- 12/15/2010 12:41 PM >


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RE: Idiots in New York, RC plane buzzing Statue of Libe... - 12/15/2010 11:35 PM   
Thomas B


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cj_rumley


.................................. The other mention in the ARC Recommendations of a 100 mph speed limit for the non-MA sUAS cited a determination made by AMA that MA operating at speeds in excess of 100 mph are high performance aircraft. Apparently that is bravo sierra, but it did reinforce my mis-recollection that AMA was the source.



I think that is a valid definiton on the part of the AMA. I think the turbine waiver used to require that pilots demo a high performance model that could fly at that speed, at least. Being high perforamce does not mean the AMA wanted them limited...that is coming from elsewhere.

We will have to hope that what the AMA calls a high performance model will not be limited under the upcoming possible rules.

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RE: Idiots in New York, RC plane buzzing Statue of Libe... - 12/16/2010 12:21 AM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thomas B

quote:

ORIGINAL: cj_rumley


.................................. The other mention in the ARC Recommendations of a 100 mph speed limit for the non-MA sUAS cited a determination made by AMA that MA operating at speeds in excess of 100 mph are high performance aircraft. Apparently that is bravo sierra, but it did reinforce my mis-recollection that AMA was the source.



I think that is a valid definiton on the part of the AMA. I think the turbine waiver used to require that pilots demo a high performance model that could fly at that speed, at least. Being high perforamce does not mean the AMA wanted them limited...that is coming from elsewhere.



Ah, that turns up the light...........
For most of us that don't fly turbines the source of that limit was obscure. OTOH, those with turbine-powered MA in their gun sights, and it's clear they were well represented on the ARC, would easily zero in to find it in AMA docs. Similar to a pattern evident in other MA restrictions proposed, lifted straight from AMA Safety Code. They picked at AMA docs until they found what they wanted to beat us down with.

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RE: Idiots in New York, RC plane buzzing Statue of Libe... - 12/16/2010 2:10 AM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cj_rumley



Ah, that turns up the light...........
For most of us that don't fly turbines the source of that limit was obscure. OTOH, those with turbine-powered MA in their gun sights, and it's clear they were well represented on the ARC, would easily zero in to find it in AMA docs. Similar to a pattern evident in other MA restrictions proposed, lifted straight from AMA Safety Code. They picked at AMA docs until they found what they wanted to beat us down with.


I would bet that the 100 mph rule is actually coming much more from a fairly arbitrary speed limit imposed by the FAA for the sUAS operators. Our possible 100mph speed limit for CBO members is going to result from the sUAS operators complaining that we should not be allowed to fly faster than they do.


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RE: Idiots in New York, RC plane buzzing Statue of Libe... - 12/16/2010 2:47 AM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thomas B
Our possible 100mph speed limit for CBO members is going to result from the sUAS operators complaining that we should not be allowed to fly faster than they do.



I think there is a lot of truth in this statement. And not just for a speed limit, but for other physical operation limits. The logic goes like this:

Why should the casual recreational modeler with no formal training requirements, no equipment certification requirements, and no regulatory oversight be allowed to fly higher, faster, or farther than the commercial/public agency sUAS can? The sUAS operator are looking to have some pretty stringent training, certification, and inspection requirements imposed on them and they are likely not going to see why simply because we are "recreational" we should be allowed more liberal operational limits.


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RE: Idiots in New York, RC plane buzzing Statue of Libe... - 12/16/2010 3:07 AM   
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Rec boaters can do a lot of things biz type boaters can't. Same with regular car drivers to chauffers?sp

look at cb'ers to ham guys

I think ama an non ama guys are gonna break the rules every now an then anyway, no matter what they set up. The tighter the faa draws down on us rec guys, the more the rules will get broke/violated

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