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RE: Invert's Fiberglassing Technique 101 - 3/3/2011 7:44 PM   
yard-dart



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From: West Monroe, LA, USA
Status: offline 		How about a close-up of the actual cloth? Oh, and thanks for the pic.


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RE: Invert's Fiberglassing Technique 101 - 3/3/2011 7:50 PM   
invertmast


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: yard-dart

How about a close-up of the actual cloth? Oh, and thanks for the pic.




Done... i can't use the flash as it just makes a big white-out picture.. so this is the best i can do. Any large amount of white and you can't see anything. I've got to buy some more stamps in the next week or two, so if you can't find anything locally that you think is right, let me know and i'll send you a sample of this stuff (or i can just buy some for you and ship it to you)

Thomas




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RE: Invert's Fiberglassing Technique 101 - 3/3/2011 7:55 PM   
yard-dart



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Status: offline 		I can see it pretty good. I've got enough info now that I may be able to find it here locally. I'll keep you updated on what I find. The peel ply I ordered should be here by the weekend, so I'll have something to take with me when I start searching. Thanks again.

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RE: Invert's Fiberglassing Technique 101 - 3/10/2011 3:22 AM   
yard-dart



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Status: offline 		My first experience with peel ply wasn't all that great, but it wasn't awful either. Someone mentioned earlier about getting the wrinkles out first. Well...... I didnt' do that. Overall the finish was good. It was where the wrinkles were that created the problem. Every single place there was a wrinkle, there is now a very uneven finish. I sanded the whole area down as smooth as I could. The only thing I can do now is to put down another cote of resin and hope that layer evens things out.

Heres the conclusion I've come to, although it is a very quick conclusion. For best results, glass the surface "the first time" using the conventional method. This gives you a good foundation to work on. Once the initial cote has dried, the next cote can be done with the peel ply. My opinion is that if there are any imperfections in the first cote using the peel ply, it takes just as much time fixing them than what it would take to go the conventional method from the get go. Generally, there aren't any imperfections in the initial cote using the conventional method. Once you've got a good solid first cote, the second cote using the peel ply should come out perfect. Just one warning........be sure that there aren't any wrinkles in the peel ply before applying. If there are, be sure and iron them out, or put it in the dryer for a bit to knock the wrinkles out.

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RE: Invert's Fiberglassing Technique 101 - 4/26/2011 4:20 PM   
thebluemax



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Status: offline 		I picked up some fabric from Jo-ann's Fabrics.   It was $4 a yard and I got it on sale with a 50% off coupon from Mom for $2 a yard.  So I got $40 worth of fabric for $20.  The receipt says it is White Costume Satin, item number is 400077195034.  The women who sold it to me said it is 100% poly and the board it was wrapped around also said it was 100% poly.   Looking at the cloth, it has a dull and a shiny side to it. 

I tried it on a test piece with the dull side first and it would not stick to the cloth and resin.  Just touching it with the spreader it would shift and come off.  Also when I put it on the piece you could see it was not taking up the excess resin.   

So I threw that piece out and tried another piece of poly but this time I put the shiny side down.  It stayed put and you could see it sucking up the resin.  After everything dried over night,  I peeled the cloth and it came right off.  No trouble at all. The test piece was nice and smooth and I just touched it up with a little 220.

I have 3 pictures here,  the first is showing the shiny and dull sides of the cloth.  The second is the poly after I pulled it off the test piece.  you can see the excess resin in the cloth.  The third is the piece after touching it up with 220. 

So I think I am good to go.  I used the same epoxy that invert used.  Nice stuff.  I bought the smallest size bottles with the pumps and then I purchased the 1/2 gallon bottles to fill the smaller ones up when needed.  Cost me a little more in the end but I figured the smaller bottles would be easier to work with.


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RE: Invert's Fiberglassing Technique 101 - 4/26/2011 7:43 PM   
thebluemax



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Status: offline 		I sprayed some primer on the test piece and lightly sanded it.  It is a little hard to see in the picture but you can see the weave of the cloth but you definitely cannot feel it at all.  It is glass smooth.   Very cool....




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RE: Invert's Fiberglassing Technique 101 - 4/26/2011 11:28 PM   
MerlinV


 

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Status: offline 		Just throwing this out there, not being experienced at all with F-glassing.

Could you use the Polyester cloth as the substrate for your covering rather than glass cloth?

Cheers,

Hugh

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RE: Invert's Fiberglassing Technique 101 - 4/26/2011 11:38 PM   
invertmast


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MerlinV

Just throwing this out there, not being experienced at all with F-glassing.

Could you use the Polyester cloth as the substrate for your covering rather than glass cloth?

Cheers,

Hugh


Probably not. The resin doesn't saturate the cloth 100% like fiberglass cloth with the same amount of resin. In order to get the poly cloth to go completely clear, it takes about 3 times more resin than fiberglass which is Allot of extra weight.

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RE: Invert's Fiberglassing Technique 101 - 4/27/2011 1:05 AM   
MerlinV


 

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Status: offline 		Understood. Thanks for the feedback.

Cheers,

Hugh

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RE: Invert's Fiberglassing Technique 101 - 4/27/2011 3:45 AM   
twmonroe


 

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Status: offline 		I wonder how this would work using poly c instead of resin....

TM

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RE: Invert's Fiberglassing Technique 101 - 4/27/2011 6:17 AM   
thebluemax



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Status: offline 		TM,
You talking polyester resin or minwax poly? 

If it is poly resin I don't think it will work.  Poly on poly will stick and you will not get that cloth off. 

The only reason this works is poly doesn't stick to epoxy.  I think I have this right:  epoxy will stick to poly but poly doesn't stick to epoxy.   One of these other guys can correct me if I am wrong.

Thomas may know if it will work with minwax poly.



quote:

ORIGINAL: twmonroe

I wonder how this would work using poly c instead of resin....

TM



< Message edited by thebluemax -- 4/27/2011 1:43 PM >

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RE: Invert's Fiberglassing Technique 101 - 4/27/2011 11:39 AM   
invertmast


 

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Status: offline 		Personally, ive only used the poly c method once, and it ruined an airframe, so i have never used it again.

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RE: Invert's Fiberglassing Technique 101 - 11/6/2012 9:53 AM   
georch


 

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From: Barcelona Catalunya, SPAIN
Status: offline 		Great information Invert!!! Great videos as well, I watched all of them...
I am trying to get as much info as I can for my first glassing job in my very first turbine model (DH Vampire from Tony Nijhuis Designs).
Still a long way to go until I start glassing but is better to be prepared!
Greetings from Spain!


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RE: Invert's Fiberglassing Technique 101 - 11/6/2012 3:15 PM   
BobH


 

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Status: offline 		You are correct Sir Epoxy over Poly only.

Thomas is a skilled builder and gives great advice. There are those who like to experiment with different finishes etc. and thats fine, to a point. I for one use either poly or epoxy and thats all. I don't want to spend months building an air frame only to have it ruined by some one's 'great idea'. In the end you want a finish that consistantly doable and gives good results.

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RE: Invert's Fiberglassing Technique 101 - 11/9/2012 10:34 PM   
TTRotary


 

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Status: offline 		Great thread here and thanks for sharing the techniques Invertmast. Couple of question and thoughts from one  with very limited experience in this. First, I'd like to hear more about why the airframe was ruined with the Poly method Invert - not sure if you mean you used minwax polyurethane over glas or Polyurethane  epoxy. If the former, I'd be very concerned about that because it seems like a good way to do it for light weight and minimal fuss.

I've done repairs and reinforcements with epoxy / glas, but I've never covered a plane. I plan to in the future however. I have a supply of .5oz glas and the West stuff. I would have 2 planned applications: recovering warbids in glas for a better finish, and covering foamy jets for stiffness and durability. These are 2 very different applications in my mind. The first seeks to create a good surface for painting / finishing. It seems the easiest application here would be to use oil-based poly as the glas filler. Although it is less strong than uncut epoxy, I would suspect is is not any weaker than thinned epoxy. I spoke to the chemist at West on thinning and they categorically do not recommend the use of alcohol as a thinner becuase it permanently alters the chemistry of the resin and weakens it considerably. Probably not a big deal for a finishing surface, but not acceptable for a structural application. But in that case, why not just use much cheaper and hassle-free minwax than epoxy?

Just to see what the difference might be, I glassed 2 sheets of 1/32 balsa, one with uncut West and the other with oil based poly-u. Soak-in and adhesion was very similar, if not identical. I was careful to scrape off all excess with a playing card so that there was a dull wetness with no shiny spots. The sheet was definitely a bit stiffer with the epoxy, but not by much. The epoxy sheet was slightly heavier. I then added 3 more coats of minwax to the poly sheet. The pieces are now of similar stiffness. The poly piece still seem lighter. I havent sanded anything yet but the poly piece feels smoother. I haven't primered them yet.

I'd be interested to hear what you experienced builders think about poly rather than epoxy.

For the foam jet, I would definitely use uncut epoxy only, as this is for strength and stiffness. And Invert's method would definitely be the best, since the idea of sanding glas and epoxy is not appealing at all.

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RE: Invert's Fiberglassing Technique 101 - 11/9/2012 11:57 PM   
tunakuts3d


 

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Status: offline 		seems like there may be some confusion with terminology and or brand names .when you say polyurethane epoxy do you really mean polyester RESIN ?  there are epoxy resins,  polyester resins,  and polyurethane resins.   The Minwax brand has several types of poly u. finishes;water based polycryilic , Oil based poly u., water based-oil modified poly u..  Lot of poly's out there.

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RE: Invert's Fiberglassing Technique 101 - 11/10/2012 12:19 AM   
invertmast


 

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Status: offline 		When i say polyurethane, i mean minwax water based polyurethane. It ended up warping the sheeting as it dried.

Peel ply is meant to eliminate the majority of the sanding necessary with epoxy resins as the amine bloom is what you are sanding off.

Thinng epoxy does nothing but caused more work IMO. There is a reason for laminating epoxies, they are designed for use to laminate a composite cloth to some other substrate. A proper laminating resin does not need any thining. Matter of fact, i have not thinned a resin for any glassing in over 5 years.

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RE: Invert's Fiberglassing Technique 101 - 11/10/2012 9:09 AM   
TTRotary


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: invertmast

When i say polyurethane, i mean minwax water based polyurethane. It ended up warping the sheeting as it dried.


I would expect the water based to do that. I do carpentry and none of the guys I know, me included, will use the water-based stuff, even for hardwoods. Have you used oil-based for a glassing job?


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RE: Invert's Fiberglassing Technique 101 - 11/10/2012 2:16 PM   
invertmast


 

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Status: offline 		I have never used the oil based as i have hears there are compatibility issues with paint sticking. Plus the can is heavier than a similar qty of epoxy, and the oil based stuff stinks

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RE: Invert's Fiberglassing Technique 101 - 11/10/2012 3:31 PM   
BobH


 

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Status: offline 		So this begs the question.. Why mess with some other methods that "may" work ???? If you have to stand on one foot, wiggle your ears and hold your mouth just right to get it to work ok.. Why bother??

The Prep to the surface is The Most Important Part..of the builiding process. Not including decaclage and straight building. What ever you see on the finished product relates directly to the Prep Finish.

So use products that are Made for the purpose! Pretty simple.. yes?

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RE: Invert's Fiberglassing Technique 101 - 11/10/2012 3:34 PM   
invertmast


 

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Status: offline 		Thats my opinion Bob! I spent allot of time learning from others when i was younger, and the ones that had the nicest models were the ones who spent the money on the proper materials for the job.

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RE: Invert's Fiberglassing Technique 101 - 11/10/2012 4:07 PM   
BobH


 

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RE: Invert's Fiberglassing Technique 101 - 11/10/2012 4:11 PM   
vertical grimmace



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Status: offline 		Water based poly works great, but the surface of the wood needs to be sealed with s laquer sealer to prevent warping. I am really interested in trying this peel ply technique with resin though.

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RE: Invert's Fiberglassing Technique 101 - 11/10/2012 4:13 PM   
invertmast


 

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Status: offline 		Once you try it you will probably never go to another method. No need for a filler coat of resin either, just put some high build filler primer on instead

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