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RE: JR stops the sales of 2.4 as of last night for upgrade - 2/17/2011 12:59 PM   
Moerig


 

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Post 36

There IS a FUNDAMENTAL Issue....

First person to see a DSMX satellite RX check this pin on PCB. If this is not fixed the issues will remain....

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RE: JR stops the sales of 2.4 as of last night for upgrade - 2/17/2011 1:19 PM   
Eplane65


 

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Status: offline 		No more JR/Spektrum stuff for me. I'm going to stick with what I have until it dies, then buy a Hitec Aurora.

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RE: JR stops the sales of 2.4 as of last night for upgrade - 2/17/2011 1:24 PM   
vasek



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Eplane65

..., then buy a Hitec Aurora.


+1

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RE: JR stops the sales of 2.4 as of last night for upgrade - 2/17/2011 1:50 PM   
crankpin


 

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These issue's, and any failure's, is this happening from unit's that have been in service for some time ? Component failure after certain hour's of use ? Reading this thread, I would be surprised if there was mass failure, except, something can work great for year's, and one mishap can cost thousand's $$.

Vince

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RE: JR stops the sales of 2.4 as of last night for upgrade - 2/17/2011 2:20 PM   
wojtek


 

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Status: offline 		Big reason so many people swear by JR is because that's what dealers and a lot of manufacturers (who are also JR resellers) push on the clientele. SO why is JR pushed more than Futaba? main reason is that anyone can get a dealership set up through Horizon, and very easily at that .. (such as the many out of home online ordering shops, or other business without a walk in storefront) GreatPlanes who is the distributor for Futaba has more strict dealer requirements, including a well equipped walk in store/storefront. SO of course there's going to be a lot more people pushing JR/Spectrum on everyone telling them how great it it ( most not even understanding the technology) ... I personally have no brand loyalties, and have flown JR when i started in the hobby with a Max6, and had several 10x radios on 72mhz ... with the 2.4 stuff, other manufacturers just use more reliable technology as has also been proven for years of use commercially and in heavy industry... Hey, a few years from now, it may be JR with the better tech .. but at this point as per the specs and functionality its just not as good as other options (there being several )


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RE: JR stops the sales of 2.4 as of last night for upgrade - 2/17/2011 2:20 PM   
AndyAndrews


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vasek


quote:

ORIGINAL: Eplane65

..., then buy a Hitec Aurora.


+1


Hitec?... Really? lol.

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RE: JR stops the sales of 2.4 as of last night for upgrade - 2/17/2011 2:45 PM   
ec121


 

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Status: offline 		Deal with it!!! Technology moves on. Just like our computers and TVS, etc. We didn't hear all this whining when HD TV or a faster computer came out. Maybe JR should also send out some pacifiers at a discount while they are waiting to ship the new radios. My DSM2 & 72Mhz.(Hitec-Futaba-JR) stuff is working just fine. I don't need the new equip.

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RE: JR stops the sales of 2.4 as of last night for upgrade - 2/17/2011 2:54 PM   
DISCUS54


 

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Status: offline 		This is a step forward for JR. Like government...at the expense of someone else. Give the JR people credit though, they didn't steal the technology like some companies out there that people continue to support. I have to laugh at the comments about the other Radio Manufacturers having superior products....true...for about another four weeks...then what? Blah...Blah.....Blah.

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RE: JR stops the sales of 2.4 as of last night for upgrade - 2/17/2011 3:10 PM   
ml3456


 

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Status: offline 		Interesting. As all my radios are JR I have had no problems, but I called Horizon to ask abour firmware upgrades to their R921 2.4 receivers and they are unaware of this!!  Does anyone have any official posting of this, or is this so long ago it may not be pertinent anymore. All my receivers are less than 18 months old with product/date codes TS907J or TS007J.

Thanks, ML


quote:

ORIGINAL: tyrick69


quote:

ORIGINAL: crankpin

Tyrick - Thanks, what you say, make's sense. I was practicing Sportsman, Focus Sport, in the sequence, from a split S, down to level, single roll. This had not been a problem. Roll to right, full aileron, using differential, dual rate, on minimum throw's, after the half roll, it just went in. I am not an expert flyer, just average. It seemed that the aileron's deflected more then I use on dual rate. We just looked at the each other, chalked it up for pilot error.

Now that they upgraded the rx, I am having different thought's here. I had a brown out with the R7000 some time back, blamed it on pilot error then also, 60 powered pattern plane, 180 degree turn, straight ahead, vertical, 1/4 roll, over the top, down elevator, straight down, 1/4 roll, going to level out, it just went in, pulled full up, no luck. Since that first brown out, I switched to 6V rx pack's. I have purchased new JR 9 chl 2.4 rx's, have not used them yet.

Vince

Receivers with the new firmware will blink to indicate that a brownout situation occured during the flight. The light will also blink however if you change batteries without cycling the transmitter power so make sure you turn the transmitter off and then back on before plugging in a new battery. This is one of the first things I check before and after every flight in hopes of spotting a potential power problem before it causes a crash.



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RE: JR stops the sales of 2.4 as of last night for upgrade - 2/17/2011 3:19 PM   
JimboGreek



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Status: offline 		I gave up on Futaba back when I had AM, FM and PCM...got hits all the time. Switched to JR and haven't had a problem since. Been Flying DSM2 since almost day one, not a single problem. Oh....Futaba is mainly losing the war because of all the BNF planes and Helis, in my opinion. I love that the Great Planes/Futaba/Hobbico/Tower Hobbies Monopoly is headed down hill lately


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RE: JR stops the sales of 2.4 as of last night for upgrade - 2/17/2011 3:47 PM   
John Redman


 

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Status: offline 		ML, I think you are experiencing something that is so long ago, none of your equipment is affected.

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RE: JR stops the sales of 2.4 as of last night for upgrade - 2/17/2011 4:07 PM   
ram3500-RCU



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Status: offline 		OK, I just got off the phone with my LHS's expert on this, who has been in direct contact with JR.

First, the new 11X and all new radios will be able to download software upgrades like this one, directly from the internet sight. Radios without this capability can be sent in and for $75 be upgraded. The exception is modules. These are not being upgraded BUT WILL STILL WORK. ALL 2.4 DSM2 will work with DSMx rxs and vise versa.

The only difference is that the DSMx software spreads the channels it locks onto farther apart, to give even more possible combination's and virtually no conflicts, as I understand it.

The only time this is ever an issue is at large events like Joe Nall, where 300-400 radios can be turned on at once. DSMx was developed for this environment. The new 11X already has this technology incorporated into it. NO SALES HAVE BEEN HALTED, on the local level. The stuff we have now is fully compatible. They DID NOT change the technology, they added to the existing, to make it even better.

DSM2 transmitters will still work, but will not benefit from change in locking channel selection, unless upgraded. The RX does what it is told. It needs no upgrade. This is controlled by the transmitter. That is why you don't need to send RXs in to be upgraded. Simple as that.

Personally, I'm happy that JR is continuing to research and further develop and improve the technology we use.

What is more, they JR / Spectrum have developed a system that is very versatile, meaning any DSM2 or DSMx RX can be used with any JR or Spectrum 2.4 radio, unlike Futaba, that has three different systems, and dedicated RX for each one, that do not interchange.



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RE: JR stops the sales of 2.4 as of last night for upgrade - 2/17/2011 4:31 PM   
HarryC


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ram3500-RCU

OK, I just got off the phone with my LHS's expert on this, who has been in direct contact with JR.

No he has not. He has been in contact with Horizon who own DSM.


quote:

ORIGINAL: ram3500-RCU

The only difference is that the DSMx software spreads the channels it locks onto farther apart, to give even more possible combination's and virtually no conflicts, as I understand it.

You really got hold of the wrong end of the stick! Spektrum is quite explicit in saying that DSMX is frequency hopping using an FHSS algorithm, not locked onto channels as DSM2 is.

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RE: JR stops the sales of 2.4 as of last night for upgrade - 2/17/2011 4:49 PM   
ram3500-RCU



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quote:

ORIGINAL: HarryC

quote:

ORIGINAL: ram3500-RCU

OK, I just got off the phone with my LHS's expert on this, who has been in direct contact with JR.

No he has not. He has been in contact with Horizon who own DSM.


quote:

ORIGINAL: ram3500-RCU

The only difference is that the DSMx software spreads the channels it locks onto farther apart, to give even more possible combination's and virtually no conflicts, as I understand it.

You really got hold of the wrong end of the stick! Spektrum is quite explicit in saying that DSMX is frequency hopping using an FHSS algorithm, not locked onto channels as DSM2 is.

I don't think you are correct. Futaba has not shared anything. JR / Spectrum does not hop. It still locks on to two channels. The only difference is how the channels are selected. I'm satisfied I got a good explanation of this from someone who makes it his business to understand what his store sells. And BTW, I traveled around the country for years and never saw a better stocked hobby shop anywhere, when it came to radios and engines. Aerotech is top shelf when it come to things like this. Been around for decades. No hole in the wall.

He also told me that I would be fighting an uphill battle to try to make this clear on the internet, with so much misinformation, hearsay, armchair experts, and conflicting loyalties, out there. I think he was right on that as well.

Believe what you want. I'll do the same.

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RE: JR stops the sales of 2.4 as of last night for upgrade - 2/17/2011 4:57 PM   
joeflyer



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Status: offline 		He got it wrong, the 11X has to be sent in for a firmware update. The SD card allows software updates but that won't get you DSMX. He has it mixed up with the new Spectrum DX8. This is the only transmitter already on the market that has DSMX firmware and the only one that does not need to be sent in. If you already a have a DX8 you can turn on DSMX with a software update through its SD card.

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RE: JR stops the sales of 2.4 as of last night for upgrade - 2/17/2011 5:10 PM   
Kelly Rohrbach


 

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Status: offline 		How long will DSM2 product be supported in terms of repair of currant product we already own. Sorry if this was already asked.

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RE: JR stops the sales of 2.4 as of last night for upgrade - 2/17/2011 5:11 PM   
ram3500-RCU



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quote:

ORIGINAL: joeflyer

He got it wrong, the 11X has to be sent in for a firmware update. The SD card allows software updates but that won't get you DSMX. He has it mixed up with the new Spectrum DX8. This is the only transmitter already on the market that has DSMX firmware and the only one that does not need to be sent in. If you already a have a DX8 you can turn on DSMX with a software update through its SD card.

Made another call to double check on this. I don't want to join the ranks of the miss-informants. This is very important to me as a JR user, and I want to help make this issue clear not fog it up more. Overreaction is so typical in this hobby. I'll report any further information.

I did like the term you used 'turn on DSMx'. I think that is a good way to describe what it is we are talking about here. If your radio has the software, it can 'turn on' this option. Otherwise, if functions as always.

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RE: JR stops the sales of 2.4 as of last night for upgrade - 2/17/2011 5:14 PM   
ram3500-RCU



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kelly Rohrbach

How long will DSM2 product be supported in terms of repair of currant product we already own. Sorry if this was already asked.

DSM2 has not been rendered obsolete. A new option has been added, if you radio will support it. Otherwise, your 2.4 will function as it always has.

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RE: JR stops the sales of 2.4 as of last night for upgrade - 2/17/2011 5:22 PM   
1bwana1


 

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Status: offline 		Just to clear up some bad information being posted on this thread.

The new DSMX protocol is a hopping scheme, the old DSM2 was not.

The 11X is not software upgradeable to DSMX, it must be sent in to HH.  The only DSMX software only upgrade is for the DX-8.

Here is a post from another site by Paul Beard.  Paul is the originator of Spektrum DSM, and still leads it's development.  I think he is a better resource than anyone you will find behind the counter at the LHS, or posting on the NET.

"DSMx 3D spreading is achieved by:

1. Pseudo-random selection of a 23 frequency pattern
(from a possible 79).
2. Pseudo-random selection of the pattern sequence
(the order the pattern frequencies are used)
3. Pseudo-random selection of the DS spreading code

The collision immunity is improved since a system would have to collide in time, pattern, code and sequence. Even if 2 systems select the same pattern they would be on a different sequence and additionally a different code. DSMx sends the same data on successive frequencies of the sequence.

DSMx transmitters are compatible with DSM2 receivers.
DSMx receivers are compatible with DSMx and DSM2 transmitters.
DSMx and DSM2 remotes are not interchangeable.
DSM2 transmitters are compatible with DSMx receivers.

DSMx is not compatible with DSMj.

The multilink architecture improves fading performance, polarization loss and antenna null loss especially if the remotes are offset-polarized with a good separation distance when installed in the model. Our multiple radio architecture has the additional benefit of redundancy.

DSMx has an improved RF footprint lowering it's contribution to the noise floor.

DSM2 DOES have a medium-access method. It picks the channels with the lowest noise floor to transmit on.

DSMx remotes WILL work with flybarless systems.

DSMx is not adaptive. Adaptive (AFH) schemes are fundamentally flawed in RC applications. There is a risk of being "adapted" out of the medium during flight !


Hope this helps,

Paul "



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RE: JR stops the sales of 2.4 as of last night for upgrade - 2/17/2011 5:28 PM   
Moerig


 

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quote:

DSMx is not adaptive. Adaptive (AFH) schemes are fundamentally flawed in RC applications. There is a risk of being "adapted" out of the medium during flight !


What a load of hogwash.... Weatronic is AFH and so are most HIREL military modems. No wonder then....
Dejavu "DSM2 is non hopping and therefore better than FH systems" sounds familiar?

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RE: JR stops the sales of 2.4 as of last night for upgrade - 2/17/2011 5:33 PM   
John Redman


 

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Status: offline 		The transmitter does not turn on or off DSMX. The determination of how it will operate is based on what receiver it is bound to on that model.

So a little explaination here.

Let's say you have an 11X that you sent in and had upgraded for the $75 to DSMX.

You have your baby boomerang that you have hundreds of flights on has a Spektrum AR9000 receiver in it.
You bind your "DSMX" 11X up to your old bommerang. When you bind it up it will work on DSM2 because that is the type of receiver you are binding to.

You have your new Skymaster Viperjet. It has a new Spektrum AR12110 DSMX receiver in it.
You bind your DSMX 11X up to your new Viperjet. When you bind it up it will work on DSMX because that is the type of receiver you are binding to.

Hope this helps.

Also DSM2 equipment will still be sold and will be serviced long into the future. No issues here. Heck, we occassionally still repair an old JR Century 7 single stick radio when they get sent in. Does that help Kelly?

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RE: JR stops the sales of 2.4 as of last night for upgrade - 2/17/2011 5:36 PM   
tyrick69



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Status: offline 		http://www.horizonhobby.com/DSMX/

Check out this video on Horizon's site. It does a great job of explaining why they developed this technology and how it actually works. They also mention the 40 transmitter limit of DSM2 which some posters had questioned yesterday when I brought it up.

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RE: JR stops the sales of 2.4 as of last night for upgrade - 2/17/2011 5:37 PM   
bcovish



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quote:

ORIGINAL: John Redman

The transmitter does not turn on or off DSMX. The determination of how it will operate is based on what receiver it is bound to on that model.

So a little explaination here.

Let's say you have an 11X that you sent in and had upgraded for the $75 to DSMX.

You have your baby boomerang that you have hundreds of flights on has a Spektrum AR9000 receiver in it.
You bind your ''DSMX'' 11X up to your old bommerang. When you bind it up it will work on DSM2 because that is the type of receiver you are binding to.

You have your new Skymaster Viperjet. It has a new Spektrum AR12110 DSMX receiver in it.
You bind your DSMX 11X up to your new Viperjet. When you bind it up it will work on DSMX because that is the type of receiver you are binding to.

Hope this helps.

Also DSM2 equipment will still be sold and will be serviced long into the future. No issues here. Heck, we occassionally still repair an old JR Century 7 single stick radio when they get sent in. Does that help Kelly?


With that being said, I think this thread should be closed. IMO

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RE: JR stops the sales of 2.4 as of last night for upgrade - 2/17/2011 5:38 PM   
tyrick69



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quote:

ORIGINAL: John Redman

The transmitter does not turn on or off DSMX. The determination of how it will operate is based on what receiver it is bound to on that model.

So a little explaination here.

Let's say you have an 11X that you sent in and had upgraded for the $75 to DSMX.

You have your baby boomerang that you have hundreds of flights on has a Spektrum AR9000 receiver in it.
You bind your ''DSMX'' 11X up to your old bommerang. When you bind it up it will work on DSM2 because that is the type of receiver you are binding to.

You have your new Skymaster Viperjet. It has a new Spektrum AR12110 DSMX receiver in it.
You bind your DSMX 11X up to your new Viperjet. When you bind it up it will work on DSMX because that is the type of receiver you are binding to.

Hope this helps.

Also DSM2 equipment will still be sold and will be serviced long into the future. No issues here. Heck, we occassionally still repair an old JR Century 7 single stick radio when they get sent in. Does that help Kelly?

John,
Thanks for chiming in. It's great to get information directly from the source instead of the rampant misinformation that too often flies around these forums.
Rick

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RE: JR stops the sales of 2.4 as of last night for upgrade - 2/17/2011 5:44 PM   
John Redman


 

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Status: offline 		We try and glad to help.

Just for the cause I will be at Florida Jets this year. Will be good to be down there flying again with everyone. And I will be flying my trusty old 12X with DSM2. Solid performance that works for a jet guy.

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Team Horizon, JetCat USA Rep

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