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What's a Model Airplane? - 8/14/2003 12:05:46 PM   
MrCoffee-RCU


 

Posts: 69
Joined: 5/26/2003
From: Chicago, IL,
Status: offline 		Interesting. Well, if they get the air below 500 feet, then that means we're breathing government property. As such, I'm sure the government wants the air to be as pure as the water we drink. Let's all protest, and make sure we don't get too much hot air. We get enough of that free from the bureaucrats.

MrCoffee

(in reply to abel_pranger)
       Post #: 76

What's a Model Airplane? - 8/14/2003 5:49:09 PM   
Sport_Pilot



Posts: 7728
Joined: 1/21/2002
From: Acworth, GA, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by J_R

Talk to the folks in Nevada. They had no speed limits. The feds stepped in and decided that a 70 mph limit was desirable. Method of implementation? No Federal matching funds unless you comply. Want to guess the speed limit in Nevada?

Actually I believe this to be illegal, to my knowledge no one has brought a case to the Supreme Court, though I do recall a similar case in the lower courts.

Ever heard of the EPA? They mandate emissions for new vehicles. Guess what they do if you don't comply? Ask for higher standards? The manufacturers tried it. Ever heard of CAFE (corporate average fuel economy). If you don't comply, you pay $ per unit that don't comply. California consistently asks for lower emission standards and gets them from the manufacturers. Want vehicles for your community? Ever notice that some run natural gas? Why? Federal grants. Think emissions are not a federal law? look under your hood for the federally mandated emissions plaque. Felony to remove it.

Yep, but that only applies to manufacture and modification of the car. The states enforce the maintenance, if they allow the cars emissions to degrade below Federal Standards they can do so. But then their citizens could be breaking the law in other states, and possibly Federal Law, when they cross state lines. Many states do allow lower emission standards for vehicles which are not to be used outside of private property, the manufactures produce those vehicles also. I don't see that what you say disputes what I said, the Federal Government regulates intrastate commerce, this includes manufacture of goods to certain standards.

Bottom line: you can get pretty much what you want from the states if you control the purse strings. If the feds want the air below 500 ft, they will buy it from the states, or.... withhold money. Very effective tool and no limits on how many times it can be used.

JR
Actually they have tried JR. The above is only true when their isn't enough complaints, or the courts write law from the bench. They tried to regulate ultralights, the manufactures complained. They either threatened court action or the courts decided in their favor, don't remember which. IMO threating the states by withholding money is illegal, even if the Supreme court decided otherwise. I wish they had written an amendment to allow the FAA to control airspace over the states, as it is now a future court could decide to turn over past court rullings.
[/QUOTE]

(in reply to abel_pranger)
       Post #: 77

What's a Model Airplane? - 8/14/2003 5:57:15 PM   
Sport_Pilot



Posts: 7728
Joined: 1/21/2002
From: Acworth, GA, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by abel_pranger
Hi JR-
Do I equate model airplanes with SAMs? In a word, no.
As for yellow journalism, yes it exists. Is that the reason AMA has exorcised 'autonomous' from its direction of what a model airplane is be allowed to be?
Is fear of the press a sufficient reason for AMA to not only disenfranchise the modelers among us that are engaged with autononmous aircraft, but also to press for federal sanction so they don't have an option of pursuing their interests outside of AMA control without leaving the country? Not for me.
There seems to be a major hangup among some folks with the word 'autonomous.' I replaced the thermostat in my home with a programmable one that makes the HVAC system 'autonomous' unless I opt to intervene with its control. That doesn't make my HVAC system a credible terrorist weapon of choice.
I know of no instance where terrorists have ever opted to employ autonomous vehicles of any sort to deliver their nastiness, except for military systems originally designed for that purpose. They seem to prefer Ryder trucks domestically (donkey carts in Israel) and have no apparent shortage of organic guidance systems seeking the glory of martyrdom.
I want to know what are the credentials and authority of whomever performed the assessment of model aircraft with autonomous control as a credible terrorist threat. Then I will have some basis for evaluating the tradeoff between the general good of the entire community of aeromodelers vs. the harm done to a minority group thereof by trashing their freedom to pursue their particular interests. Jay Whatever's proposal and the EC's considering it a good idea is far from sufficient cause to usurp anyones freedom, IMHO, FWIW, etc.
And yes dammit, I am getting testy about it.

Abel [/QUOTE]

Yep, even a Cessna 150 with a raghead pilot would make a better SAM than an autonomous model aircraft.

(in reply to abel_pranger)
       Post #: 78

What's a Model Airplane? - 8/14/2003 8:02:29 PM   
Jim Branaum


 

Posts: 1669
Joined: 10/22/2002
From: Fair Oaks Ranch, TX, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by J_R
ROFLMOA. Maybe it's the heat, I know how you feel.

I too would like to know the basis of the decision that was made. Let's hope that one day soon the Safety Code is uncoupled from insurance, at least to the extent that rule 3 is deleted. That woud be a huge start. The rest of the Safety Code has always been a work in progress. I know I'm gonna get it for this, but, it has been a flexible document. Most times it's modification has been to limit our freedoms further.

SNIP

JR [/QUOTE]

While I may agree with the first part of that paragraph, the second part is clearly out of order. There is no way that the AMA EC wishes to take away our rights! Jeesh that sounds like something another has/would say. They react to preserve our abilities and frequently find out that the action they took was an overkill.

There is a BIG difference between over kill trying to protect something and taking away your rights. Please be careful with your assumptions sir, for they paint the wrong picture. The way you have presented them paints the AMA with the wrong brush, and I think that is not correct. Most of the AMA EC members I have talked with have no intention of regulating the hobby any more than the business requirements put on us by the insurance industry or governments call for. I agree there are a couple of notable exceptions, but they have become well known in the last few months and are not in the majority.

_____________________________

Jim Branaum AMA 1428

(in reply to abel_pranger)
       Post #: 79

What's a Model Airplane? - 8/14/2003 8:23:27 PM   
J_R


 

Posts: 4446
Joined: 1/4/2002
From: Corona, CA,
Status: offline 		Jim

I will stand by my statement. It makes no value judgments, but is simply a statement of fact. Whether it be that I can no longer take a 5 year old to the flight line to watch, or that I must check a damaged plane before I fly it in public again, it is an infringement. Simple fact. Are some based on common sense? Sure, but, never the less, they are an infringement.

JR

(in reply to abel_pranger)
       Post #: 80

What's a Model Airplane? - 8/14/2003 8:57:08 PM   
abel_pranger


 

Posts: 2319
Joined: 5/7/2003
From: St Augustine, FL,
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by J_R

Let's hope they choose to disclose the reasoning behind their decisions, and site their authorities. In the meantime, as you imply, we are whistling in the wind.

JR [/QUOTE]

Hi JR-
Yes, whistling in the wind. You said that before using different words and I failed at the time to see the wisdom in it. After some telcons last eve with some other interesting parties, and sleeping on it to wake up with some fresh thoughts about how it will impact us, or maybe not, I think it's time to give it a rest. Let them finish polishing this turd, and then we'll see what it looks like. When the ink is dry on the '04 version of the AMA SC will be a better time to discourse further on the matter.

Abel

(in reply to abel_pranger)
       Post #: 81

What's a Model Airplane? - 8/15/2003 11:53:09 AM   
J_R


 

Posts: 4446
Joined: 1/4/2002
From: Corona, CA,
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by mongo
if you can afford the price tag, and can get em to sell ya one, i got no problem with ya flying it for educational purpose.

let me know when they get through grilling ya about even asking to buy one. bound to be an interesting story. [/QUOTE]

Hi mongo

As I said, the Predator is educational in more ways than one. To be educational, a Predator need not to be owned, nor operated nor even seen. You certainly do not need to go through the scrutiny of trying to buy one.

If you are standing somewhere.. almost anywhere, and are introduced to the business end of one of these autonomous models, and somehow manage to survive the introduction, it is a very educational experience. Whatever your selected activity may have been, you have certainly been educated to the fact that your choice of activities is somewhat less than appreciated. I would think that such an education might lead you to a more sedate lifestyle. Unfortunately, the educational value is limited to those still standing after the introductions have concluded.

JR

(in reply to abel_pranger)
       Post #: 82

What's a Model Airplane? - 8/15/2003 12:31:43 PM   
MrCoffee-RCU


 

Posts: 69
Joined: 5/26/2003
From: Chicago, IL,
Status: offline
quote:

I would think that such an education might lead you to a more sedate lifestyle. Unfortunately, the educational value is limited to those still standing after the introductions have concluded.


Oh boy, I like that one. A true statement, J_R, and great humor! As for me, I choose to have something else but me grilled to medium rare. For example: a prime rib or T-bone.

MrCoffee

(in reply to abel_pranger)
       Post #: 83

What's a Model Airplane? - 8/15/2003 12:48:29 PM   
J_R


 

Posts: 4446
Joined: 1/4/2002
From: Corona, CA,
Status: offline 		Mr. Coffee

I am with you. I prefer beef.

Of course, the point is that sending anything off to the FAA needs to be thought out extremely carefully. The law of unintended consequences has a way of biting those that think that everything has been thought completely through.

As Able agreed, it's time to cogitate and wait.

In the meantime, let's try the T-bone.

JR

(in reply to abel_pranger)
       Post #: 84

What's a Model Airplane? - 8/15/2003 4:53:35 PM   
Sport_Pilot



Posts: 7728
Joined: 1/21/2002
From: Acworth, GA, USA
Status: offline 		Only thing is the Predator is not autonomous! It can fly on its own, but that is more of an autopilot, as it is taken off, flown and landed by a remote pilot, and monitored full time.

(in reply to abel_pranger)
       Post #: 85

What's a Model Airplane? - 8/15/2003 8:53:53 PM   
mongo


 

Posts: 1224
Joined: 12/5/2001
From: Midland, Republic of TEXAS, TX, USA
Status: offline 		yall are missing the point.
anyone that can get through the hoops to buy one legally, is not going to be a concern as to how it is used. and everyone else that might desire to use one, well our rules and definitions will not be paid attention to anyway.
so again, from my point of view, the only thing that seperates a UAV from a model airplane is, is it used for comercial purpose?

_____________________________

for muroc1, frank, none of the above is intended to be either bullying or insulting, it is just the way i communicate.

(in reply to abel_pranger)
       Post #: 86

What's a Model Airplane? - 8/16/2003 12:35:48 AM   
MrCoffee-RCU


 

Posts: 69
Joined: 5/26/2003
From: Chicago, IL,
Status: offline 		In all due respect, I see no problem with a private individual owning a small UAV, as long as they are willing to fly it according to established flying patterns of regular aircraft.

The type of UAV that would benefit a private individual most, would be one made for arial photography. It would be light, and small enough so that it wouldn't do any damage should it collide with a full-sized aircraft. The instruments would enable the craft to right its self should the operator make a judgement error, and could return it safely to its owner.

A gas (nitro) engine can be made quiet enough to not disturb the community, and I am sure there are many public places that could be found to operate one of these. Or, better yet, an electric motor on a light weight air frame with enough capacity for the camera and instruments would be ideal for these activities.

As for recreation and sport flying. I seriously doubt that there will be any changes in the forseeable future. I do, however, feel that noise is an issue when there are no mufflers. Flyers need to pay attention to this issue, and be a good neighbor to others in the sport. Honestly, I really do want to be able to hear that 5 cylinder Saito instead of someone's Cap 21 with a chainsaw motor without a muffler! So go out, and have fun. But please give that guy with the radial or scale Cessna with a REAL 4 cylinder motor a break and let everybody else on the flying field hear it. Thanks....

MrCoffee

(in reply to abel_pranger)
       Post #: 87

What's a Model Airplane? - 8/16/2003 2:09:23 AM   
J_R


 

Posts: 4446
Joined: 1/4/2002
From: Corona, CA,
Status: offline 		Mr. Coffee

Unquestionably, there are a lot of commercial uses that show promise in the future. I have a friend that uses a model sized blimp to sample the emissions over "smoke stacks" for his environmental company. A small UAV might be a preferred alternative.

As Able pointed out, none of us have a crystal ball and we may have no idea what the future holds just a few years down the road. I am sure we have all seen conjecture of a day when all aircraft may not be piloted by humans.

It's going to be interesting to see what develops in the model "sized" arena, even if it only has commercial uses. It will be just as intersting to see what the EC has in mind for us in the model domain. It's certainly fun to let your imagination run.

JR

(in reply to abel_pranger)
       Post #: 88

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