What's a Model Airplane?  
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What's a Model Airplane? - 8/8/2003 3:53:40 AM   
abel_pranger


 

Posts: 2319
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From: St Augustine, FL,
Status: offline 		Dumb question, huh? Let me rephrase.......How does the AMA EC define what a model airplane is? They revised the definition at their last confab in Muncie, in the list of exclusions from insurance coverage.
Not that some change would be inappropriate; an 'airplane without a pilot on board' is a rather broad brush in this day of UCAVs and such.
FAA in March of this year set up an internal working group to focus on how UAVs will fit in the National Air Space. FAA does not regulate model aircraft (AC 91-57 is advisory, not regulatory). They wil regulate classes of UAVs. I'd like to be able to compare AMA's new definition of 'model airplane' with what the FAA WG thinks it means.

Abel
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What's a Model Airplane? - 8/8/2003 7:56:37 AM   
Geistware



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From: Locust Grove, GA, USA
Status: offline 		What not call a model a remote piloted vehicle that is controlled via human visual cues.?

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Re: What's a Model Airplane? - 8/8/2003 10:08:37 AM   
Jim Branaum


 

Posts: 1669
Joined: 10/22/2002
From: Fair Oaks Ranch, TX, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by abel_pranger
Dumb question, huh? Let me rephrase.......How does the AMA EC define what a model airplane is? They revised the definition at their last confab in Muncie, in the list of exclusions from insurance coverage.
Not that some change would be inappropriate; an 'airplane without a pilot on board' is a rather broad brush in this day of UCAVs and such.
FAA in March of this year set up an internal working group to focus on how UAVs will fit in the National Air Space. FAA does not regulate model aircraft (AC 91-57 is advisory, not regulatory). They wil regulate classes of UAVs. I'd like to be able to compare AMA's new definition of 'model airplane' with what the FAA WG thinks it means.

Abel [/QUOTE]

I think the Homeland Security folks are pushing for that regulation. I sure hope this does not lead to the same type and style of regulation the Brits have since I am not inclined to pay more bureaucrats salaries. Hopefully the new definition will pass the TSA muster and we can continue to play without excessive government intervention.

I have a friend that put a video camera and transmitter in his large scale plane. We went flying with his television. . .

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Re: Re: What's a Model Airplane? - 8/8/2003 8:46:25 PM   
abel_pranger


 

Posts: 2319
Joined: 5/7/2003
From: St Augustine, FL,
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jim Branaum
I think the Homeland Security folks are pushing for that regulation. I sure hope this does not lead to the same type and style of regulation the Brits have since I am not inclined to pay more bureaucrats salaries. Hopefully the new definition will pass the TSA muster and we can continue to play without excessive government intervention.

I have a friend that put a video camera and transmitter in his large scale plane. We went flying with his television. . . [/QUOTE]

Jim-
Homeland Security is a stew stirred by way too many cooks. Whatever some Dr No type (Poindexter comes to mind) has on his twisted agenda, they'll rarely get a quorum to push in the same direction.
FAA'S position has been that model airplanes haven't been a problem, so there is no need to regulate them. The issue is where to draw the line between model airplanes that they don't need to be concerned with, and other things that fly which they will need to regulate. UAVs are going to become big industry - law enforcement agencies, TV stations, environmental monitoring agencies, and a host of commercial enterprises are a ready market. They'll be sharing sometimes crowded airspace with existing air traffic, hence there is no way for FAA not to be in the business of regulating them. There is an obvious difference between a Predator and a model airplane, but they need to define the difference in precise and easily quantifiable terms. One such quantifiable term is weight - ICAO, of which the US is a member state, says model airplanes weigh less than 25 kg (abt 55 lb). Sound familiar?

Abel

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What's a Model Airplane? - 8/8/2003 9:06:44 PM   
J_R


 

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Status: offline 		Abel, here it is:

"· The Academy of Model Aeronautics (AMA) defines a model aircraft and its operation as follows:



A non-human-carrying device capable of sustained flight in the atmosphere, not exceeding the limitations established in the Official AMA National Model Aircraft Safety Code, exclusively for recreation, sport, and/or competition activities.



The operators of radio control model aircraft shall control the aircraft from the ground and maintain un-enhanced visual contact with the aircraft throughout the entire flight operation. The aircraft shall not be equipped with devices that would allow for autonomous flight.



· The Academy of Model Aeronautics (AMA) defines a model flying site as follows:



A flying area, either indoor or outdoor, established for

operation of model aircraft according to the Official

AMA National Model Aircraft Safety Code. "

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What's a Model Airplane? - 8/8/2003 9:33:15 PM   
MajorTomski



Posts: 1388
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From: Oklahoma City, OK, USA
Status: offline 		Sounds like a perfectly good definition against a politician/ bureaucrat banning "model airplanes" as a terrorist threat. If I have to see it to fly it, it can't be much of a threat.

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What's a Model Airplane? - 8/8/2003 9:38:52 PM   
BillHarris



Posts: 835
Joined: 12/20/2002
From: Jasper, AL, USA
Status: offline 		> The aircraft shall not be equipped with devices that would allow for autonomous flight.

The "gotcha" here might be planes equipped with a device like a Futaba Autopilot which would allow the plane to make flight corrections without pilot input and also equipped with a PCM Rx so that the Rx would assume a fail-safe mode when out of Tx range.

Not a good definition of autonomous, but this setup could be construed as such.

Just being devil's advocate...

--Bill

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What's a Model Airplane? - 8/8/2003 10:06:32 PM   
J_R


 

Posts: 4446
Joined: 1/4/2002
From: Corona, CA,
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by BillHarris
> The aircraft shall not be equipped with devices that would allow for autonomous flight.

The "gotcha" here might be planes equipped with a device like a Futaba Autopilot which would allow the plane to make flight corrections without pilot input and also equipped with a PCM Rx so that the Rx would assume a fail-safe mode when out of Tx range.

Not a good definition of autonomous, but this setup could be construed as such.

Just being devil's advocate...

--Bill [/QUOTE]

LOL, LOL, LOL
Hey Bill, why don't your call your VP and ask?

JR

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What's a Model Airplane? - 8/9/2003 12:27:08 AM   
BillHarris



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What's a Model Airplane? - 8/9/2003 12:57:17 AM   
depfife



Posts: 5053
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From: St. Louis, MO, USA
Status: offline 		The operators of radio control model aircraft shall control the aircraft from the ground and maintain un-enhanced visual contact with the aircraft throughout the entire flight operation.

Will I still be allowed to wear my sunglasses?

Eric

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What's a Model Airplane? - 8/9/2003 1:24:32 AM   
Jim Branaum


 

Posts: 1669
Joined: 10/22/2002
From: Fair Oaks Ranch, TX, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by J_R
Abel, here it is:

"· The Academy of Model Aeronautics (AMA) defines a model aircraft and its operation as follows:



A non-human-carrying device capable of sustained flight in the atmosphere, not exceeding the limitations established in the Official AMA National Model Aircraft Safety Code, exclusively for recreation, sport, and/or competition activities.



The operators of radio control model aircraft shall control the aircraft from the ground and maintain un-enhanced visual contact with the aircraft throughout the entire flight operation. The aircraft shall not be equipped with devices that would allow for autonomous flight.



· The Academy of Model Aeronautics (AMA) defines a model flying site as follows:



A flying area, either indoor or outdoor, established for

operation of model aircraft according to the Official

AMA National Model Aircraft Safety Code. " [/QUOTE]

This sure sounds like they just made the TAM folks UAV people regardless of their intent. Hmmm...

Abel,
Of course you are right. Have you read Newsweek or Time in the last 2 weeks?

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What's a Model Airplane? - 8/9/2003 1:54:48 AM   
abel_pranger


 

Posts: 2319
Joined: 5/7/2003
From: St Augustine, FL,
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by J_R
Abel, here it is:

"· The Academy of Model Aeronautics (AMA) defines a model aircraft and its operation as follows:



A non-human-carrying device capable of sustained flight in the atmosphere, not exceeding the limitations established in the Official AMA National Model Aircraft Safety Code, exclusively for recreation, sport, and/or competition activities.



The operators of radio control model aircraft shall control the aircraft from the ground and maintain un-enhanced visual contact with the aircraft throughout the entire flight operation. The aircraft shall not be equipped with devices that would allow for autonomous flight.



· The Academy of Model Aeronautics (AMA) defines a model flying site as follows:



A flying area, either indoor or outdoor, established for

operation of model aircraft according to the Official

AMA National Model Aircraft Safety Code. " [/QUOTE]

JR-
Thanks for pulling that out.
I think it's a very good definition for the most part. It should stand on its own, though, rather than referencing limits specified by the AMA Safety Code. This is clearly a circular reference, being that it is a clause within the Safety Code itself, and further that makes its utility limited to the purposes of AMA's administration of insurance.
It appears that we model flyers and FAA have a common interest: We don't want to be regulated and they don't want to have to regulate us. I doubt, however, they will buy into a definition of model airplane as "whatever AMA says it is in their Safety Code."
This is going to affect all of us, and not too far off in the future. Doesn't seem the right time to be politicking for recognition of AMA as a quasi-official regulatory agency. Assisting FAA with establishing the boundary between model airplanes and 'other' RPVs in realistic and durable (not subject to AMA whimsy) terms would much better further our interests - as modelers in general, and inclusive of AMA's special interests. Just MHO. What's yours?

Abel

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What's a Model Airplane? - 8/9/2003 3:40:26 AM   
abel_pranger


 

Posts: 2319
Joined: 5/7/2003
From: St Augustine, FL,
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jim Branaum
This sure sounds like they just made the TAM folks UAV people regardless of their intent. Hmmm...

Abel,
Of course you are right. Have you read Newsweek or Time in the last 2 weeks? [/QUOTE]

Jim-
Yeah, it would affect the TAM guys and like ventures. I think Maynard is enured to this, though. Several of his record trials have required waivers from FAA, et al. Not necessarily a bad thing. The authorities seem to have been cooperative once they were assured his motives weren't nefarious. That's probably in the best interest of all of us these days.
Sorry for not being more clear that I was addressing FAA's role as traffic cop, rather than their nebulous charter to counter terrorists. I have not read NW or Time in the past couple of weeks - does the scuttlebutt have to do with the ilk of ADM(Ret) Poindexter trying to put surveillance cameras in your bedroom and a bar code tattoo on the back of your neck? Some of these characters are capitalizing on temerity brought about by 9/11 to buy our liberty in exchange for security. I say no deal.

Abel

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What's a Model Airplane? - 8/9/2003 3:50:14 AM   
J_R


 

Posts: 4446
Joined: 1/4/2002
From: Corona, CA,
Status: offline 		Abel

It didn't take much digging. I asked Joyce and she sent it.

I can see your point. However, I think that the references to the Safety Code are things like the 55 pound limit. Short of a re-write of the Safety Code and the Rule Book, it seems a reasonalbe approach to the definition. If it was an all incompasing definition, such items as what a pylon racer is, or a thermal duration sailplane ( and each class ) would have to become part of the definition.

In talking to Dave Brown about the issue of UAV's, on a couple of occasions, as well as things like transporting models, he seemed far more concerned with the TSA and Homeland Security than the FAA. If the worst we actually do is to prohibit models guided by cameras and loose autopilots (I am not sure we have), I think we are way ahead of the game. Thank goodness that we are not percieved as genuine threats... at least so far.

I do hope that the AMA puts out a list of prohibited activities, in the near future, so that we know more about what technologies have been excluded.

JR

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