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RE: CAELESTIA NEW F3A 2011 - 6/17/2012 1:09 PM   
cmoulder


 

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Status: offline 		Thanks, back out today for some more tweaking.

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RE: CAELESTIA NEW F3A 2011 - 6/17/2012 1:11 PM   
danamania


 

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Status: online 		Nice Pix guys!  Bob, let me know anything you find out about programming for the Advance as I now have one too in a Nuance I'm building.  Thx!

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RE: CAELESTIA NEW F3A 2011 - 6/17/2012 5:41 PM   
cmoulder


 

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Status: offline 		Dana, I'm at the field now and just flew it after the changes. I set timing to high and PWM to 24kHz and rpm's went up to 5800, but the biggie was Anthony R's suggestion to change the firmware back to 3.2 from the latest 4.1 and now the power is ballistic. I did the first flight without even taching it and was very happy. Flew a little crazy just to push it a bit. Upon landing the motor was barely warm and the esc (remember mine is an older 85hv) was not even warm.

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RE: CAELESTIA NEW F3A 2011 - 6/17/2012 8:00 PM   
can773



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Status: offline 		Hi Bob,

I tached mine today and on a 22x12 I was getting about 6200 rpm, keep in mind I am at 3500' ASL


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RE: CAELESTIA NEW F3A 2011 - 6/18/2012 1:40 AM   
cmoulder


 

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Status: offline 		Chad, with a 21-inch prop mine has very little clearance, and even with feather soft landings I can get a little prop strike with the smallest of irregularities in short grass. I may have to find some taller gear!

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RE: CAELESTIA NEW F3A 2011 - 6/18/2012 1:52 AM   
cmoulder


 

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Status: offline 		Some photos of details.

Kevlar pull pull kit from ACP composites. Very nice.

Aileron linkages Secraft 3mm with 34mm turnbuckles for ailerons, 40mm for elevators. Elevator and Aileron gaps covered with white electrical tape.

Canopy uses a light latch from F3A Unlimited and a front "lip" made of a lite ply sandwich... idea copied from a Wistmodel Bravo canopy, thanks to jhatton.

Simple physics seemed to indicate a little more air exhaust venting, so a couple of vents added to the belly. It will likely get pretty hot sometime this summer, tho it hasn't yet!

I like the 4-wire dual elevator servo extension, soldered up using a common power and ground and separate signal. Works great, some cool factor.

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RE: CAELESTIA NEW F3A 2011 - 6/18/2012 2:18 AM   
danamania


 

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Status: online 		Very exciting Bob, can't wait to see it next weekend!

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RE: CAELESTIA NEW F3A 2011 - 6/18/2012 3:37 PM   
can773



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quote:

ORIGINAL: cmoulder

Chad, with a 21-inch prop mine has very little clearance, and even with feather soft landings I can get a little prop strike with the smallest of irregularities in short grass. I may have to find some taller gear!



Hi Bob,

I just bent the tailwheel as low as possible, and use 2.5" wheels. Been flying with the 22x12 on grass for a couple months without a problem using the stock gear.


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RE: CAELESTIA NEW F3A 2011 - 6/24/2012 6:31 AM   
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Watching the thread... looks like everyone is enjoying the new Caelestia. I had numerous head winds during my assembly with the slow delivery of my servos being the biggest contributor... and my complete lack of free time. arghh!

My airframe arrived in the same shipment as Chad's and was one of the first two to hit North America. I was very impressed with the quality and the overall fit and finish of this composite airframe. The assembly was straight forward and I had very few issues. I took my time and made sure the engine mounts, esc and servo trays all were placed in proper positions. You do have flexibility here as engine choice etc will dictate correct placement. I am using the Plett Advanced with a Jeti Spin 99 ESC. Futaba servos, 6008-HS RX and 5.9v DigiSwitch. I mounted my servo tray above the top air exit. This allows for lots of room underneath to access the rear wing bolts and aileron servo hook ups. You can use the middle (between exits like Chad) as well but as he pointed out... do not go below the exits :-)

My box came with a servo tray, ESC mounting tray, engine mount for the Advanced, and a bunch of custom decals... simply awesome service! It appears I had some pull..... probably all the money I've spent at ZNLine over the last 10 years :-)

Only a few minor things cropped up during my assembly that one should check and consider. I elected to add two smaller 4-40 bolts to the gear instead of the original two 4mm bolts. In doing so I added a second CF plate under the original to mount the 4-40 blind nuts to. It creates a stronger gear with less twisting motion. I suspect the newer kits may have this already. Also the wing & stab roots need to be cleaned up a bit as I had some burrs that caused some alignment issues. Minor detail and easily remedied with a Dremel tool.
The nylon bolts that hold the wings on seemed a bit tight and one of my inserts was slightly deformed and would not accept the bolt. I ran an M-5 tap through them and they are perfect now. The stab tube was a bit loose in the socket as well so a little thin ca or tape on the CF tube worked perfectly to snug things up.

Following a through inspection with another set of eye balls, today was the maiden flight and there were no surprises. It flew great and my Xigris set up that I copied made it even easier :-0. I had the batteries forward and will move them back before doing any kind of mixing. I'll use the triangulation trimming method that has worked great in the past and get the C of G set then start trimming and adding mixing if required. Really looking forward to flying it on a regular basis.



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RE: CAELESTIA NEW F3A 2011 - 6/24/2012 6:44 AM   
patternjockey


 

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Status: offline 		I'll post a couple sets of additional pictures.....

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RE: CAELESTIA NEW F3A 2011 - 6/24/2012 6:47 AM   
patternjockey


 

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Status: offline 		more.....

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RE: CAELESTIA NEW F3A 2011 - 6/24/2012 6:49 AM   
patternjockey


 

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Status: offline 		And finally a picture after the maiden flight. Great to finally get this plane up!

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RE: CAELESTIA NEW F3A 2011 - 6/24/2012 12:54 PM   
wattsup


 

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Status: offline 		Dave, very nice review and finishing work. I consider this another one of the excellent choices thanks to Chad and it's availability from Chris at F3A Unlimited. I'm sure there are a number of people out here waiting for more info about your progress and trimming experience, etc. Thanks, Everette

< Message edited by wattsup -- 6/24/2012 2:07 PM >

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RE: CAELESTIA NEW F3A 2011 - 6/25/2012 1:20 PM   
cmoulder


 

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Status: offline 		Nice work, Dave.

Just a word to the wise... the gear plate modification is absolutely mandatory, not an option.

'Nuff said.

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RE: CAELESTIA NEW F3A 2011 - 6/25/2012 3:24 PM   
J Lachowski


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: can773


quote:

ORIGINAL: cmoulder

Chad, with a 21-inch prop mine has very little clearance, and even with feather soft landings I can get a little prop strike with the smallest of irregularities in short grass. I may have to find some taller gear!



Hi Bob,

I just bent the tailwheel as low as possible, and use 2.5'' wheels. Been flying with the 22x12 on grass for a couple months without a problem using the stock gear.


Chad, based on my observation of Bobs plane this weekend, I would have the gear plate lowered at least a good half inch in the fuse for better prop clearance, as well as, a better landing gearplate design.


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RE: CAELESTIA NEW F3A 2011 - 6/25/2012 3:55 PM   
can773



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Status: offline 		Hey Joe,

The gearplate was supposed to have been improved based on my plane as I had an issue with it, I was told all the planes after mine had the issue fixed (only Dave's and mine should have been the ones needing any mod)....but obviously that didn't happen. So if you have a gearplate that looks like Daves with only two bolts then you absolutely need to change it or you will break the plate.

I will reiterate to JP that this is still a problem and needs to change.


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RE: CAELESTIA NEW F3A 2011 - 6/26/2012 3:26 AM   
patternjockey


 

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Status: offline 		Chad is correct in that the new planes should have been modified..... that said, for those airframes that are delivered with only the two 4mm bolts installed... here is what I did...

1) Make a 1/8th light ply template/jig with your two 4-40 holes spaced across the inner portion of the gear base allowing sufficient room for blind nuts underneath and easy access :-)(or just drill two extra holes where you like:-)

2) Drill out your landing gear base plates using your jig.

3) Attach your gear using the supplied two 4 mm bolts

4) Now the hard part... using your drilled gear base as a template, start to drill out your two 4-40 holes (I used my fingers as I could not get my drill in there.. took some time but worked fine.)

5) Drill out the holes & then remove your gear.

6) Take a piece of CF reinforced 1/8th plate ( you know the stuff sitting around our shop that you saved for that special job :-) and using the top gear plate, measure and cut out the required piece.

7) You'll try to place this plate under the mounting plate.... it will not fit due to the space constraints and formers....arghhh! Cut this plate in half at a 45 degree angle and mark them.

8) Once cut, dry fit the two pieces until snug. (sand the 45 degree angle until it fits easily)

9) Remove the installed 4mm inserts by inserting the bolt and slowly working the bolt around until the inserts pops out. Mine came out very easily.

10) Mark and place each half under the existing gear plate and, using the drilled 4-40 holes, mark & drill out the locations for the blind nuts and the inside 4mm hole as I elected to reuse this supplied cap screw. (remove the lower plate and re-drill the holes a bit over-sized to allow the blind nuts to sink into the plate. Also drill out a hole for the remaining 4 mm bolt's insert.)

11) Sink in the 4-40 blind nuts and insert the 4mm blind nut thingy (a little thin ca locks them in nicely)

12) Dry fit the plate(s) and when happy, apply some 45 minute epoxy (or what every you like)

13) Assemble the gear plate, gear and bolts and tighten snug.

14) Once the plate is dry, take it all apart. Note: If you used too much epoxy and it's creeps into the bolts.... your really done :-)

Also... If you look at my picture of the gear plate (above pics) you'll notice I also added some 1/4 stock along each fore and aft edge (top & bottom) to add even more strength ;-0

This was all done with minimal weight gain and an overall improvement in the strength of the gear mounting system. One also has the option of ditching the 4mm bolt altogether and going with three 4-40 bolts but you'll need some sort of shim because the 4mm bolt hole is already drilled into the cf gear. This is why I stayed with the 4mm bolt.

There should be very few airframes that will require this or any modification.


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RE: CAELESTIA NEW F3A 2011 - 6/26/2012 6:40 PM   
danamania


 

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Status: online 		Bob, the gear plate defects aside (sucks at this price point), how do you like it after Pocono? Almost pulled the trigger on this one, sure is a pretty bird in many respects and I enjoyed watching you fly it. Working for you?

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RE: CAELESTIA NEW F3A 2011 - 6/26/2012 10:41 PM   
Jason Arnold


 

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Status: offline 		I don't understand why there is an issue with the gear plate. My Krill Spark/s have the same gear plate structure and I've not had one issue at all. The only difference I can see is the way the C/F gear is attached to the plate. See attached photo of the Spark UC. Spark has an Aluminium bracket over the carbon fibre and one screw retaining the two UC ends. It's a very strong structure.

Regards,
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RE: CAELESTIA NEW F3A 2011 - 6/26/2012 10:42 PM   
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I tried these settings today on my HV80/ Pletty Advance today with inconclusive results. RPM and amp draw was about the same, regardless of which firmware or PWM/timing settings I used. I got around 6200 rpm with a 21x14 Falcon prop regardless of the settings/firmware. The only thing that did change was voltage ripple went down dramatically with the old firmware/timing/PWM changes. I'd been told by a Castle rep that ripple was affected by battery lead and ESC lead length as well as the internal resistance of the batteries, so this makes no sense to me.

The dramatic change you describe may be something unique to the HV85. Now if someone can explain PWM to me and what outrunner mode is for PWM, I'd sure appreciate it!

Don't mean to hijack the thread, but I'm finding this discussion interesting.

Jon

quote:

ORIGINAL: cmoulder

Dana, I'm at the field now and just flew it after the changes. I set timing to high and PWM to 24kHz and rpm's went up to 5800, but the biggie was Anthony R's suggestion to change the firmware back to 3.2 from the latest 4.1 and now the power is ballistic. I did the first flight without even taching it and was very happy. Flew a little crazy just to push it a bit. Upon landing the motor was barely warm and the esc (remember mine is an older 85hv) was not even warm.



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RE: CAELESTIA NEW F3A 2011 - 6/27/2012 12:04 AM   
danamania


 

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ORIGINAL: jonlowe...Now if someone can explain PWM to me and what outrunner mode is for PWM, I'd sure appreciate it!

Don't mean to hijack the thread, but I'm finding this discussion interesting.


As I understand it, the esc switches the juice on and off rapidly to the motor following the throttle commands from the Rx.  PWM stands for Pulse Width Modulation, the width being the duration of each "on" cycle of Voltage.  Lower PWM applies the full Voltage available to the esc from the LiPos for fewer cycles per second (kHz).  The resulting emf to the motor is determined by these pulses, not Voltage changes.  This was counter intuitive to me when I first read about it in some RC mag, but that's the jist of it.  In almost all cases, I have been using 8kHz PWM in my large electrics based on recommendations from the threads. I don't know how the esc calculates or applies PWM in Outrunner mode, or if that is some fixed value like 12kHz named "Outrunner" to be user friendly.  I will stand corrected if any of this is not exactly the case so if someone steeped in this arcania comes to our rescue, LOL, we can learn something new.

BTW, just downloaded data logs from my Vanquish and the maiden of my Advance propelled Nuance.  Without getting too deep into the OT weeds here, the data looks very different from my Himax 210.  Both running Ice2 HV80s with similar, but not identical settings, off of 25c NanoTech 5000s.  The Advance would appear to be highly efficient, delivering MUCH more actual power to the props, both Falcon 20.5x14.5 V2 CFs, for MUCH less current draw and Wattage than the Himax 210.  Very interesting to see how these data logs from the Advance will look over time.  Anyone else getting the same impression or data?  Cheers!



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RE: CAELESTIA NEW F3A 2011 - 6/27/2012 1:15 AM   
cmoulder


 

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ORIGINAL: Jason Arnold

I don't understand why there is an issue with the gear plate. My Krill Spark/s have the same gear plate structure and I've not had one issue at all. The only difference I can see is the way the C/F gear is attached to the plate. See attached photo of the Spark UC. Spark has an Aluminium bracket over the carbon fibre and one screw retaining the two UC ends. It's a very strong structure.

Regards,
Jason.


As Chad indicated above, there was an issue that was supposed to have been resolved but wasn't with some of the kits that arrived here, at least not on the one I got.

I also have a Spark and assumed that since the Caelestia was manufactured by Krill it would have a similar gear plate. I can't explain how this detail slipped through the cracks, but suffice to say it was a miracle it lasted for 10 or 11 gentle landings. Several very experienced pattern fliers examined the remains of the gear plate that I cut out and agree with that assessment. Chris Moon at F3AUnlimited has the actual bits that I brought to Pocono for his inspection. I sent photos to Chad for whatever follow-up he needs to do with the manufacturer.



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RE: CAELESTIA NEW F3A 2011 - 6/27/2012 1:26 AM   
cmoulder


 

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quote:

I tried these settings today on my HV80/ Pletty Advance today with inconclusive results. RPM and amp draw was about the same, regardless of which firmware or PWM/timing settings I used. I got around 6200 rpm with a 21x14 Falcon prop regardless of the settings/firmware. The only thing that did change was voltage ripple went down dramatically with the old firmware/timing/PWM changes. I'd been told by a Castle rep that ripple was affected by battery lead and ESC lead length as well as the internal resistance of the batteries, so this makes no sense to me.

The dramatic change you describe may be something unique to the HV85. Now if someone can explain PWM to me and what outrunner mode is for PWM, I'd sure appreciate it!

Don't mean to hijack the thread, but I'm finding this discussion interesting.

Jon


Jon, I installed an HV80 (Ice2) just this morning so now I will be asking Dana how his settings are working out.

For the initial settings I programmed in 12kHz PWM and timing medium, which are the default settings. If weather and work and life will cooperate, I will get to check these settings tomorrow afternoon, and I will have the laptop at the field to make changes. Also installed that little Castle Link thingy so I don't have to unplug the throttle channel. I was going to do some testing on the deck of our condo but it scares the neighbors.

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RE: CAELESTIA NEW F3A 2011 - 6/27/2012 1:31 AM   
cmoulder


 

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quote:

BTW, just downloaded data logs from my Vanquish and the maiden of my Advance propelled Nuance. Without getting too deep into the OT weeds here, the data looks very different from my Himax 210. Both running Ice2 HV80s with similar, but not identical settings, off of 25c NanoTech 5000s. The Advance would appear to be highly efficient, delivering MUCH more actual power to the props, both Falcon 20.5x14.5 V2 CFs, for MUCH less current draw and Wattage than the Himax 210. Very interesting to see how these data logs from the Advance will look over time. Anyone else getting the same impression or data? Cheers!


This is why I installed the HV80 this morning.... I must have data!

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RE: CAELESTIA NEW F3A 2011 - 6/27/2012 1:38 AM   
cmoulder


 

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ORIGINAL: danamania

Bob, the gear plate defects aside (sucks at this price point), how do you like it after Pocono? Almost pulled the trigger on this one, sure is a pretty bird in many respects and I enjoyed watching you fly it. Working for you?


Yes, back on topic, I like the plane but it is a long way from being set up. CG needs to be a bit farther back for my tastes and the throttle curve is totally wack. The rates are OK but expo needs a lot of work. In short, there is a lot left to sort out and it was way too early to bring it to Pocono, but it was impossible to resist the urge to play with the new model.

This Sunday I will take a more sober and methodical approach to ironing out the setup. The LG issue got me a bit off track.

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