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RE: canola oil - 8/8/2011 3:57 AM   
iskandar taib


 

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Status: offline 		Yeah, as I was about to say.. There was a story in the news a couple years back about folks in Britain buying vegetable oil to pour stright into their cars (without converting it to biodiesel first). Apparently in Britain this is against the law - there are fairly heavy taxes on diesel fuel, which made cooking oil a lot cheaper than diesel. There were districts in Britain where the cooking oil shelves were completely bare - people were buying the stuff 10-20 gallons at a time. Cops were catching people and issuing hefty fines - and the way they did this was to be on the lookout (sniffout?) for cars that smelled like fries!

Apparently people have been running used (i.e. ex-fast food) oil in diesel cars for years - back in the 90s there was a story in the local paper about someone who had friends who worked in various fast food places, and he'd get free used oil for his diesel Rabbit. It just needed some straining (he rolled up some newspaper into a cone and poured it right into the tank). If anything smelled like fries, I'll bet that did...

Iskandar

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RE: canola oil - 8/9/2011 10:03 PM   
earlwb


 

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Status: offline 		If I remember there is something one could add to facilitate Olive oil to mix with methanol so you could make glow fuel with it. But I forget what it is.
Some car guys used it when in a pinch they needed to make some fuel up to use and they didn't have any castor oil. If I remember they would simply shake it up good before they filled the car's fuel tank and then fire up the engine and off they go. it doesn't settle out too fast and the car's movement and vibrations keeps it mixed OK too.

Iskandar, yes you are correct, they use the synthetic oils used in airconditioning systems with the glow fuel. The oils are OK, but they have a lower temperature at which they start to unzip (break down) and become something flammable that burns. A good example is a engine going a shade too lean, and then suddenly it has a momentary burst of power  just before it seizes up on you, as the synthetic oil burned and broke down and stopped lubricating and became extra fuel to burn. So the trick to synthetics is to avoid letting the engine get into a lean run situation. If you do then the synthetic oils work fine.  In Europe and Asia they have access to a couple of newer brands of synthetic oils that work much better, but we can't get them in the USA though.




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RE: canola oil - 8/10/2011 3:40 AM   
aspeed


 

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Status: offline 		Jim Thomerson got me thinking about the old recipe Wesson oil. He said it mixes with methanol. I googled (yahooed) it and it says somewhere that it starts to smoke at 450 degrees F. That seems too low to me.  I wonder what the synthetics like Klotz smoke at.  I don't know where you can get  cottonsed oil now but it says a lot of cereals and commercial products that say cottonseed and or canola and or whatever usually contain cottonseed oil because it is cheaper the the others. It may be good to use in combination with caster.     In response to earlwb.  In high school chemistry (which I failed) we got oil to mix with water by adding a small amount of detergent.  Maybe this would work to mix a gasoline based two stroke oil with methanol at the 32 or 40 to one ratio.  This would run very clean and be super cheap. (sorry less expensive)  If it works.  I think maybe part of the reason 1/2 A planes run better on high nitro fuels is because it dissolves the oil better than the methanol and it atomizes better because it is mixed well.  Plus the fact that it IS nitro.  Acetone or ether maybe helps this too @3% so I have read.  Maybe the better dissolving is responsible for the better burning too. I swear I smelled someones commercial fuel and I smelled ether.   I noticed when mixing small batches of fuel over the years that the oils do not mix well without the nitro. (I used to fly FAI speed and you HAD to use 80% meth. to 20% caster. It always seemed kind of cloudy looking without nitro. It worked  ok but you needed more compression and we didn't have to idle.  Just thinking out loud,  too lazy to try these things, but I probably could waste a couple of motors to experiment if I had time.   This is what I think would work  3% acetone, 1% liquid detergent, 3% good motorcycle oil,(or substitute 15% Canola or Cottonseed oil) 5% caster just in case, and the rest methanol.  Maybe add a bit of gasoline to the mix to get the motorcycle oil to mix if the acetone and detergent doesn't work and nitro if you have to.  What do you think? (I will cower in the corner)

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RE: canola oil - 8/11/2011 5:32 AM   
cutaway


 

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Status: offline 		About 25 years ago Dave Gierke wrote an article that compared a lot of different oils. My memory vaguely recalls that canola might have been one of them and produced pretty bad carbonization deposits in the combustion chamber very quickly.

None of the plant/bean oils he compared seemed to work as well as castor.

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RE: canola oil - 8/11/2011 11:06 AM   
1QwkSport2.5r



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quote:

ORIGINAL: cutaway

About 25 years ago Dave Gierke wrote an article that compared a lot of different oils. My memory vaguely recalls that canola might have been one of them and produced pretty bad carbonization deposits in the combustion chamber very quickly.

None of the plant/bean oils he compared seemed to work as well as castor.

The big problem with plant based oils is the glycerin content. Anyone ever use cooking oil in a pan to make pancakes or something end up with a brownish scum layer around the edge of the pan? That's the glycerin. This stuff is worse to get off than castor crud. Biodiesel guys have to remove the glycerin from the fry oil they use for a variety of reasons. That's the carbon source I bet.

Stick to what works, guys. Quality synthetics like Klotz and good ol' castor. If there was something better, we'd know about it.

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RE: canola oil - 8/11/2011 2:02 PM   
aspeed


 

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Status: offline 		We always had to clean off the carbon/varnish on the FAI speed motors, maybe once or twice a year.  You could feel it  slowing down.  We only had one minute flights too. (15 seconds timed)  The Tee Dee .049 motors were quite bad for that too.  I always used a bit of castor with the fuel for insurance but there are drawbacks.  It was easily removed with Scotchbright and acetone on the piston/liner but is an effort that isn't needed with synthetics.  I think all oils should be degummed but am not sure how it is done.  That is probably how the glycerine is removed.  I would still like to see a cheaper oil, or one that uses less -to run cleaner- to make more power as the alcohol/nitro gives the power- and of course to run cheaper.  Especially the big motors, a .90 or 120 can go through a couple of gallons a day.  Most of the cost is the oil and nitro, and markup.  The methanol is not much more than gasoline. I have to agree that it will be hard to find a cheap natural oil better than castor and I will continue to add it even with it's drawbacks.

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RE: canola oil - 8/11/2011 3:21 PM   
1QwkSport2.5r



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ORIGINAL: aspeed

We always had to clean off the carbon/varnish on the FAI speed motors, maybe once or twice a year.  You could feel it  slowing down.  We only had one minute flights too. (15 seconds timed)  The Tee Dee .049 motors were quite bad for that too.  I always used a bit of castor with the fuel for insurance but there are drawbacks.  It was easily removed with Scotchbright and acetone on the piston/liner but is an effort that isn't needed with synthetics.  I think all oils should be degummed but am not sure how it is done.  That is probably how the glycerine is removed.  I would still like to see a cheaper oil, or one that uses less -to run cleaner- to make more power as the alcohol/nitro gives the power- and of course to run cheaper.  Especially the big motors, a .90 or 120 can go through a couple of gallons a day.  Most of the cost is the oil and nitro, and markup.  The methanol is not much more than gasoline. I have to agree that it will be hard to find a cheap natural oil better than castor and I will continue to add it even with it's drawbacks.

Methanol must be cheaper in Canada. I paid $32 for 5 gallons of it. The nitro is the most expensive, but it's a complex process to refine it, plus its a hazardous chemical once processed. I use all castor oil in my homebrew fuel because it's gonna help make my engines last a long time. I would rather clean oil slime off everytime I run my engines than have to worry about a lean run and burning up the engine. I like cheap insurance. Castor is $23 a gallon and I consider that cheap compared to any decent synthetic. Even drugstore castor doesn't gum my engines up any more than the degummed stuff from sig.

When it comes down to it, you can't go wrong when you go old school. Methanol, castor, and nitro. Simple and effective. Save the olive oil and canola oil for making French fries and biodiesel for your Volkswagen TDI.

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RE: canola oil - 8/11/2011 4:17 PM   
aspeed


 

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Status: offline 		Methanol isn't cheaper in Canada if you buy it in bulk.  At the hardware store it is between $7 to $10 for 4 litres (about 4 US quarts)  It is of  course cheaper in bulk.  I just get 4 litres at a time because I fly smaller stuff and don't want it to absorb water over a year or two.  Gasoline is what is expensive here.  Lately it is about $1.30 a litre and $1.40 + for premium.  If you buy the methanol in bulk, it isn't really that much more than gas considering the benefits especially if you fly giant planes.  Then there is the oil and nitro.  I will run out of nitro soon and will have to buy commercial fuel soon or try acetone or ether for experimenting. But yes I agree with the tried and tested old school methods.  I just like trying new things sometimes just in case they work better or naturally, are cheaper and better too. Most events that I fly we are restricted to 10% nitro race supplied commercial fuel anyway.

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RE: canola oil - 8/12/2011 6:56 PM   
iskandar taib


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: earlwb

br/>Iskandar, yes you are correct, they use the synthetic oils used in airconditioning systems with the glow fuel. The oils are OK, but they have a lower temperature at which they start to unzip (break down) and become something flammable that burns. A good example is a engine going a shade too lean, and then suddenly it has a momentary burst of power  just before it seizes up on you, as the synthetic oil burned and broke down and stopped lubricating and became extra fuel to burn. So the trick to synthetics is to avoid letting the engine get into a lean run situation. If you do then the synthetic oils work fine.  In Europe and Asia they have access to a couple of newer brands of synthetic oils that work much better, but we can't get them in the USA though.





Yeah, this is true for PAGs in general (i.e. almost all the synthetic oils one finds in "RC" fuels these days) not just airconditioner oils.

Iskandar

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RE: canola oil - 8/12/2011 7:02 PM   
iskandar taib


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 1QwkSport2.5r


quote:

ORIGINAL: cutaway

About 25 years ago Dave Gierke wrote an article that compared a lot of different oils. My memory vaguely recalls that canola might have been one of them and produced pretty bad carbonization deposits in the combustion chamber very quickly.

None of the plant/bean oils he compared seemed to work as well as castor.

The big problem with plant based oils is the glycerin content. Anyone ever use cooking oil in a pan to make pancakes or something end up with a brownish scum layer around the edge of the pan? That's the glycerin. This stuff is worse to get off than castor crud. Biodiesel guys have to remove the glycerin from the fry oil they use for a variety of reasons. That's the carbon source I bet.

Stick to what works, guys. Quality synthetics like Klotz and good ol' castor. If there was something better, we'd know about it.


No, that's not the glycerin that's doing that, it's the fatty acids dehydrating and polymerizing. More prevalent with polyunsaturated oils such as soybean oil. Castor oil has as much glycerin as any other vegetable oil, i.e. one glycerin molecule combined with every three fatty acid molecules. Even it will form the brown scum if you ever used it (laxative omelettes???) in a saucepan - it's the same varnish that protects the engine when you get a lean run.

The difference between the oils is in the fatty acids, not the glycerin.

Iskandar


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RE: canola oil - 8/13/2011 5:19 AM   
cutaway


 

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Status: offline 		FWIW, There's several A/C oil types around.

In the synthetic realm are R-22 systems (new sales of R-22 systems have been phased out and R-22 related stuff will become scarcer and scarcer over the next 10 years) are PAG/Glycol based, the newer R-410a systems run completely different Ester based "oil".

There's also some systems using a mineral based oil, but that's not interesting to us.

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RE: canola oil - 8/13/2011 10:10 AM   
iskandar taib


 

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Status: offline 		I wonder if the ester oils are soluble in methanol. I suspect they would be. Probably quite expensive, though, as R-410a is.

Iskandar

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RE: canola oil - 8/14/2011 4:00 AM   
aspeed


 

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Status: offline 		Well, the more I look into this the more questions I think of.  I read somewhere on making biodiesel that oil (cooking oils, I don't know about air conditioner oils, but maybe them too) can be polymerized by heating them to 300 degrees F.  for a few hours. Then they will mix with Alcohol or presumably Methanol.  This could maybe be something to try on canola, olive, cotton seed, motorcycle or even castor oil. Maybe it changes the molecular structure like hardening steel or something.  I surely don't know what 'polymerizing is or does, but it sounds like something to experiment with and it is a great sounding five syllable word.  The canola and other natural oils do  have a low smoking point but may be ok if they aren't run too lean and have a bit of castor in the mix.   I also read an old George Aldrich article which I will never find again that said mixing Castor and Ucon oils gives both of them properties that they never had by themselves.  (Maybe a Goran Ohlsen website.  probably spelled wrong on the last name)

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RE: canola oil - 8/14/2011 4:28 PM   
downunder



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ORIGINAL: aspeed
I also read an old George Aldrich article...........

This is it here.

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RE: canola oil - 8/18/2011 2:51 AM   
aspeed


 

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Status: offline 		Yep that is the article.  I wonder if Polymerizing veggy oils or motorcycle oils would get them to mix with methanol.

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RE: canola oil - 8/19/2011 5:53 PM   
iskandar taib


 

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Status: offline 		No, it wouldn't. Here is a paragraphs from the article:

quote:

Castor oil meets these rather simple requirements in an engine, with only one really severe drawback in that it is thermally unstable. This unusual instability is the thing that lets castor oil lubricate at temperatures well beyond those at which most synthetics will work. Castor oil is roughly 87% triglyceride of ricinoleic acid, [ (CH3(CH2)5CH(OH)CH2CH=CH(CH2)7COO)3(OC)3H5 ], which is unique because there is a double bond in the 9th position and a hydroxyl in the 11th position. As the temperature goes up, it loses one molecule of water and becomes a "drying" oil. Another look at the molecule. Castor oil has excellent storage stability at room temperatures, but it polymerizes rapidly as the temperature goes up. As it polymerizes, it forms ever-heavier "oils" that are rich in esters. These esters do not even begin to decompose until the temperature hits about 650 degrees F (343 deg C). Castor oil forms huge molecular structures at these elevated temperatures - in other words, as the temperature goes up, the castor oil exposed to these temperatures responds by becoming an even better lubricant!


What makes castor oil so soluble in methanol is the "OH" (marked red above) halfway down the ricinoleic acid molecule. Polymerization simply means molecules hooking up together to form bigger ones. It doesn't add "OH" groups to the molecules.

Here's another representation of the ricinoleic acid molecule (from Wikipedia). Note how it folds upon itself, putting the OH at one end. This is what "sticks" to the methanol.



Iskandar





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