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RE: Why don't many people build RC airplane kits anymore? - 12/26/2012 6:56 AM   
combatpigg



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I agree with your timeline of key events but my question still goes unanswered.
I don't think ARFs just showed up en masse one day and then magically transformed the market's taste buds...at least not to the majority.
In fact the first ARFs [from China] were terrible but they were gobbled up like Cheezewhiz, cheap beer and Wonderbread and so began the scramble to meet demand with what we have today.
[I allowed myself to get suckered into buying a few of the early ones on impulses......and pretty slick advertising.]


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RE: Why don't many people build RC airplane kits anymore? - 12/26/2012 7:51 AM   
GallopingGhostler



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No, my point was there is more to the story. Costs have more or less driven the hobby industry, as the earlier kit manufacturers recognized. I remember hearing of kits being produced in the millions annually by a manufacturer. In order to sell, they had to be made in such a manner that they could compete. I remember of Scientific CL kits retailing as low as $1.25, discounted below that by the hobby shop to sell. I bought my first RC kit in 1972, a Top Flite .020 Schoolboy. It cost me somewhere under $5 from Hobby Shack mail order.

Nowadays, kits are overall better quality, wood and finish wise. Prices are up because kits aren't manufactured is as great of quantities as before. They have become what used to "deluxe kits".

Regardless of the reasons, recently although there have been many good deals come my way, I have decided against purchasing additional ARF's for the simple reason I have sufficient unbuilt kits to finish first.

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RE: Why don't many people build RC airplane kits anymore? - 12/26/2012 11:54 AM   
Stickbuilder



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quote:

ORIGINAL: sensei

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder

The most amazing thing is that it is considered perfectly normal and acceptable for those who only fly to make comments on how those of us who build are wasting our time, or some such, and how they are supposed to be able to fly better than those of us who do both, but let a builder cast a disparaging remark about those who only fly ARF's and the complaints to RCKen are flying. Looks like ARF models aren't the only thing that they fly.

Bill, Waco Brother #1


Actually the most amazing thing was that the entire thread was going fairly smooth until you through that trash out there about how lazy the ARF guys are... Now I see your here to stir the pot once again. Hey, by the way, did you ever finish that ARF fused Ryan of yours?

Reading through your last post there may be something to the statement that ARF flyers are better pilots because as the old saying goes; practice makes perfect, and most of those guys I see are out practicing with those ARFs all the time while we are at home building. Now you can prove that theory wrong by just showing us all one of your best flying videos and we will see how it stands up with 75% of those so called ARF flyers out there.

Bob



Would you like me to post a video of my planes on the ground, or would you rather come watch while we fly? I have a little trouble doing a video while I'm flying. Hands are just a little busy with the airplane and doing that pilot stuff. If you think that I'd trust Vinnie, or Karl, or Frankie with my camera, then think again.

Bill, Waco Brother #1

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RE: Why don't many people build RC airplane kits anymore? - 12/26/2012 1:17 PM   
sensei



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder


quote:

ORIGINAL: sensei

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder

The most amazing thing is that it is considered perfectly normal and acceptable for those who only fly to make comments on how those of us who build are wasting our time, or some such, and how they are supposed to be able to fly better than those of us who do both, but let a builder cast a disparaging remark about those who only fly ARF's and the complaints to RCKen are flying. Looks like ARF models aren't the only thing that they fly.

Bill, Waco Brother #1


Actually the most amazing thing was that the entire thread was going fairly smooth until you through that trash out there about how lazy the ARF guys are... Now I see your here to stir the pot once again. Hey, by the way, did you ever finish that ARF fused Ryan of yours?

Reading through your last post there may be something to the statement that ARF flyers are better pilots because as the old saying goes; practice makes perfect, and most of those guys I see are out practicing with those ARFs all the time while we are at home building. Now you can prove that theory wrong by just showing us all one of your best flying videos and we will see how it stands up with 75% of those so called ARF flyers out there.

Bob



Would you like me to post a video of my planes on the ground, or would you rather come watch while we fly? I have a little trouble doing a video while I'm flying. Hands are just a little busy with the airplane and doing that pilot stuff. If you think that I'd trust Vinnie, or Karl, or Frankie with my camera, then think again.

Bill, Waco Brother #1

As I suspected, all bark, no bite. Thanks for making my point valid about the panic stuff, I mean pilot stuff. Remember, practice makes perfect.

Bob



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RE: Why don't many people build RC airplane kits anymore? - 12/26/2012 3:55 PM   
combatpigg



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quote:

ORIGINAL: sensei


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder


quote:

ORIGINAL: sensei

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder

The most amazing thing is that it is considered perfectly normal and acceptable for those who only fly to make comments on how those of us who build are wasting our time, or some such, and how they are supposed to be able to fly better than those of us who do both, but let a builder cast a disparaging remark about those who only fly ARF's and the complaints to RCKen are flying. Looks like ARF models aren't the only thing that they fly.

Bill, Waco Brother #1


Actually the most amazing thing was that the entire thread was going fairly smooth until you through that trash out there about how lazy the ARF guys are... Now I see your here to stir the pot once again. Hey, by the way, did you ever finish that ARF fused Ryan of yours?

Reading through your last post there may be something to the statement that ARF flyers are better pilots because as the old saying goes; practice makes perfect, and most of those guys I see are out practicing with those ARFs all the time while we are at home building. Now you can prove that theory wrong by just showing us all one of your best flying videos and we will see how it stands up with 75% of those so called ARF flyers out there.

Bob



Would you like me to post a video of my planes on the ground, or would you rather come watch while we fly? I have a little trouble doing a video while I'm flying. Hands are just a little busy with the airplane and doing that pilot stuff. If you think that I'd trust Vinnie, or Karl, or Frankie with my camera, then think again.

Bill, Waco Brother #1

As I suspected, all bark, no bite. Thanks for making my point valid about the panic stuff, I mean pilot stuff. Remember, practice makes perfect.

Bob




A camera bolted to a hard hat works really well for shooting your flights while at the controls.
If I was involved with the activities where the plane gets judged on appearance and on how well it flies, it sure would be a hollow victory to be entered with a plane that someone else built. The awards go to the owner, you see....and not to the plane.
I would have to lower my personal standards to feel good about winning a contest with someone elses' creation and that aint gonna happen.


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RE: Why don't many people build RC airplane kits anymore? - 12/26/2012 4:27 PM   
GallopingGhostler



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quote:

ORIGINAL: combatpigg A camera bolted to a hard hat works really well for shooting your flights while at the controls.

Excellent idea, CP. I have several hard hats from my construction days and a Vivitar helmet cam I bought on sale. I want to be able to film my Gilbert .074 Thunderhead powered CL Baby Ringmaster Gee Bee Z variant on 30 feet (9.1 m) Dacron when the weather warms up here (now 18 F or -8 C) and I finish the fuel proof clear coat.

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RE: Why don't many people build RC airplane kits anymore? - 12/26/2012 5:27 PM   
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One time one of these old ****s came up to my wife at the field and put a cold Soda on her butt since she was wearing shorts. My initial reaction was to knock him out but Instead I realized it wasn't that big of deal since I will be like that someday for sure.

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RE: Why don't many people build RC airplane kits anymore? - 12/26/2012 5:50 PM   
jquid



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Wow. lots going on in this thread.
Ok I started building kits when I was 12. For one kits were all that were available at the time, and it was cheaper that way. I built a Goldberg Gentle Lady, and saved 2 summers for a 3 channel Futaba.

I learned to fly with a bunch of retired pilots, some from WWII, some commercial. (late70's). I learned to build better, straighter from flying with them and then on my own.
For people with the "Instant gratification for humans"- there was gratification from building. I read the instructions, cut parts, I built another part of the airplane and it looked like the picture! Gratification arrived. Then each part, then it looked like a plane all complete, more gratification! Then out to the field, it flies! Even more gratification.
I was 12-13.

Skip ahead to this forum, and today. I would say everyone here posting is above age 12. We have families now, or retired or in between. For each one of us each part of what I just described either gives us pleasure, or it does not. some like to just fly and go fast as hell, others like to fly but like to go slow, or hover.

Others like to build something that is not in a current kit, or ARF, that gives them the most pleasure.

My point is, the hobby has so much different directions to go, none is right or wrong. It is what makes each person, personally happy. My son is 5, and this summer we plan on getting him an airplane to fly, yes it will be an arf, most likely the multiplex one. Why? because if he like the flying part, he would most likely like going into the workshop with Dad and building his first kit by himself. He would already know how to fly, and understand why it flies. Now he can understand the building process better. Why does this need to be strong here, or why do I need to put this silly wingtip higher at the tip?

We all have busy lives, and sometimes we do not have the time we had when we were 12, agreed?

We can keep the kits alive, by showing the next generation what it is about-IF that interests them.
I had a professor in my Avionics class that was trying to get more women into the field, he felt there was an unfair amount of guys in the programs. Well, when you talked to them, they just were not interested in that particular field, so why make them? Why bash ARFers, and Kitters? Neither is right or wrong, it is a hobby, and each person should be respected for what they decide to do. Any true heli kits out there anymore? I still have a GMP Cricket. Any today come with all screws in bags, and metal pieces to be assembled, any wood to be glued together to make a servo mount? I think most heli kits are not true kits anymore, but those guys have a much harder time flying than fixed wing. But that is just another facet of the hobby-not wrong, not right.

If someone shows up to the field with a plane that looks unsafe, or crappy heavy, why not help them? Give them some pointers? Help them check the CG, the engine running right. This thread was littered with "He looks Dangerous", or he can't build. or I got his stuff because he couldn't get the engine tuned even! Share with them your experiences, and don't just turn and look away, and say, wow I knew that was going to happen.

just my .02 spend it the way you like.


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RE: Why don't many people build RC airplane kits anymore? - 12/26/2012 6:02 PM   
nyfed


 

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I have been in the hobby for over 30 years off and on. I have had several ARFS some very nice however they all have the same common problem. The glue used looks like hot glue in spots only. I have lost two giant scale arfs to failure of the firewall The engine and firewall just seperate frome the aircraft in flight. Other club members have had the same problem. I have taken new ARF kits and glued every joint I could get to.Some firewalls are covered and not accessable. So back to building present project a Balsa USA 1/4 scale J3 cub with DLE 20 gas engine

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RE: Why don't many people build RC airplane kits anymore? - 12/26/2012 6:42 PM   
combatpigg



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quote:

ORIGINAL: essyou35

Every previous generation says this type of stuff about the next. Let me tell you something about my generation.

WE support your old butts with Social security, something I will not have the luxery of. I have to save for my retirement, everything I will have by the time I am your age will be EARNED not entitled.



Wrong. Everybody who works "over the table" pays their fair share into SS. As designed the system would be self sustaining if some of the funds didn't get siphoned off into other programs


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RE: Why don't many people build RC airplane kits anymore? - 12/26/2012 7:57 PM   
GallopingGhostler



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quote:

ORIGINAL: nyfed I have been in the hobby for over 30 years off and on. I have had several ARFS some very nice however they all have the same common problem. The glue used looks like hot glue in spots only. I have lost two giant scale arfs to failure of the firewall The engine and firewall just separated from the aircraft in flight. Other club members have had the same problem. I have taken new ARF kits and glued every joint I could get to.Some firewalls are covered and not accessible. So back to building present project a Balsa USA 1/4 scale J3 cub with DLE 20 gas engine

I know what you are saying, nyfed. I've been in the hobby some 47 years off and on, too. Sorry to hear you lose 2 big ARF's due to hidden construction defects.

That was one thing good about the American made ARF's. They were quality products (in spite of the field rants some 20 - 30 years ago) and would perform adequately if one assembled them according to instructions.

Yes, that is one advantage to kits and scratch building. If there are any problems, the builder can only blame themselves. Usually more than not, the builder did it right. It also allows opportunities, particularly on earlier designs to make structural corrections to improve the strength and fly-ability of the planes.

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RE: Why don't many people build RC airplane kits anymore? - 12/26/2012 7:59 PM   
DMichael


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GallopingGhostler

.....I remember of Scientific CL kits retailing as low as $1.25, discounted below that by the hobby shop to sell. .....



I was just a young boy then but my Dad used to get the magazines this rang a bell for me.... low and behold- I can clearly remember this advertisement- thanks for the memory.



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RE: Why don't many people build RC airplane kits anymore? - 12/26/2012 8:17 PM   
sensei



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quote:

ORIGINAL: combatpigg

quote:

ORIGINAL: sensei


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder


quote:

ORIGINAL: sensei

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder

The most amazing thing is that it is considered perfectly normal and acceptable for those who only fly to make comments on how those of us who build are wasting our time, or some such, and how they are supposed to be able to fly better than those of us who do both, but let a builder cast a disparaging remark about those who only fly ARF's and the complaints to RCKen are flying. Looks like ARF models aren't the only thing that they fly.

Bill, Waco Brother #1


Actually the most amazing thing was that the entire thread was going fairly smooth until you through that trash out there about how lazy the ARF guys are... Now I see your here to stir the pot once again. Hey, by the way, did you ever finish that ARF fused Ryan of yours?

Reading through your last post there may be something to the statement that ARF flyers are better pilots because as the old saying goes; practice makes perfect, and most of those guys I see are out practicing with those ARFs all the time while we are at home building. Now you can prove that theory wrong by just showing us all one of your best flying videos and we will see how it stands up with 75% of those so called ARF flyers out there.

Bob



Would you like me to post a video of my planes on the ground, or would you rather come watch while we fly? I have a little trouble doing a video while I'm flying. Hands are just a little busy with the airplane and doing that pilot stuff. If you think that I'd trust Vinnie, or Karl, or Frankie with my camera, then think again.

Bill, Waco Brother #1

As I suspected, all bark, no bite. Thanks for making my point valid about the panic stuff, I mean pilot stuff. Remember, practice makes perfect.

Bob




A camera bolted to a hard hat works really well for shooting your flights while at the controls.
If I was involved with the activities where the plane gets judged on appearance and on how well it flies, it sure would be a hollow victory to be entered with a plane that someone else built. The awards go to the owner, you see....and not to the plane.
I would have to lower my personal standards to feel good about winning a contest with someone elses' creation and that aint gonna happen.
[/quote

I agree with you, and I build everything I fly too but many sponsored and ARF Pilots spend year in and out flying and pushing the envelope while guys like me spend most there time building, thats why I am only an advanced pilot and will never be an expert pilot. It is what it is...

Bob


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RE: Why don't many people build RC airplane kits anymore? - 12/26/2012 8:34 PM   
combatpigg



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quote:

ORIGINAL: combatpigg
If I was involved with the activities where the plane gets judged on appearance and on how well it flies, it sure would be a hollow victory to be entered with a plane that someone else built. The awards go to the owner, you see....and not to the plane.
I would have to lower my personal standards to feel good about winning a contest with someone elses' creation and that aint gonna happen.
[/quote
quote:

Sensei
I agree with you, and I build everything I fly too but many sponsored and ARF Pilots spend year in and out flying and pushing the envelope while guys like me spend most there time building, thats why I am only an advanced pilot and will never be an expert pilot. It is what it is...

Bob






I have more respect and admiration for your accomplishments than the corporate sponsored guys.
On the FAI level the old USSR had teams of full time paid personnel who lived in campuses that were dedicated to the various control line events. The pilots had builders and mechanics with full access to any and all resources that they needed. As an American who pays his own way to compete at the World Chamionships how would you feel about that...?
I also have more repect for all the other guys in motorsports who are "self made" men. It wasn't that long ago when a guy who owned a welding shop or a machine shop could also own the National Record in Top Fuel.


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RE: Why don't many people build RC airplane kits anymore? - 12/26/2012 9:26 PM   
scochrane


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vger105

Maybe my view is a tad myoptic but it seems to me with the advent of ARFs and RTFs, people aren't building as many planes from kits as they used to.  20 years ago when I was last in the hobby, it seems that many more people built, and _enjoyed_ building, planes from kits.  I posed this question to members of my flying club and the consensus seemed to be that either people don't have the time for kits or they just want to fly and not be "bothered" building.  I'm presently building a Great Planes J-3, 40, and I'm loving every minute! 


Try to find a kit to build. I was looking for a c /l. Kit to build, LHS  doesn't carry anything to build any more all ARFs and RTFs



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RE: Why don't many people build RC airplane kits anymore? - 12/26/2012 9:48 PM   
combatpigg



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Control line plans are out there and they aren't that hard to cut out with just hand tools. Many use designs that don't require extensive carving or shaping of leading edge stock or anything else besides maybe a cheek cowl piece.
Anyone who complains about the hardships of shaping balsa wood is a wuss anyway....
See if you can find Dick Mathis' Piper Cherokee plans for .35 size engines.... or just about anything designed by Dick Sarpolus.
You'll need to use choice wood that can be ordered through SIG or from Lone Star for best results.
I would also mention Brodak kits..[but they're way too expensive for the amount of wood you actually are getting].


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RE: Why don't many people build RC airplane kits anymore? - 12/26/2012 9:52 PM  1 votes
joebahl


 

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http://www.outerzone.co.uk/index.asp There are almost 4000 free plans for a download here ,one should be able to find one they like Here are some old free flight ones from the aussies http://www.kurrawong.net/affp/plans.php And some tiled ones that are mostly old ace kits . http://my.pclink.com/~dfritzke/ I have plenty more but i cant build them all . http://www.starcadplans.net/index.php And here are some nice cad drawn ones from argentina http://174.142.160.206/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=11223&sid=99d90bc6807291ccf20b74dfb73baaeb

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RE: Why don't many people build RC airplane kits anymore? - 12/26/2012 10:09 PM   
GallopingGhostler



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quote:

ORIGINAL: scochrane Try to find a kit to build. I was looking for a c /l. Kit to build, LHS doesn't carry anything to build any more all ARFs and RTFs

Sig Manufacturing has CL kits: http://www.sigmfg.com

So does Brodak: http://brodak.com/

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RE: Why don't many people build RC airplane kits anymore? - 12/26/2012 10:18 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: combatpigg Control line plans are out there and they aren't that hard to cut out with just hand tools. Many use designs that don't require extensive carving or shaping of leading edge stock or anything else besides maybe a cheek cowl piece. [...] You'll need to use choice wood that can be ordered through SIG or from Lone Star for best results.

Balsa USA is another source.

I've been investigating alternate materials such as 3/16" (5 mm) thick poster foamboard for constructing profile CL's. There is also 1/4" (6 mm) blue insulating foam and building insulating white styrofoam in 1/2" (13 mm), 1" (25 mm) and 2" (51 mm) thicknesses. I think one can come up with some interesting possibilities, similar to the scratch building RC guys. I used a vitamin supplements bottle section for a CL radial cowl. Also with a little imagination, use of alternative paints such as PVA gyp board primer for sanding sealer, etc., one can build something that looks sharp.

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RE: Why don't many people build RC airplane kits anymore? - 12/26/2012 10:25 PM   
joebahl


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GallopingGhostler

quote:

ORIGINAL: combatpigg Control line plans are out there and they aren't that hard to cut out with just hand tools. Many use designs that don't require extensive carving or shaping of leading edge stock or anything else besides maybe a cheek cowl piece. [...] You'll need to use choice wood that can be ordered through SIG or from Lone Star for best results.

Balsa USA is another source.

I've been investigating alternate materials such as 3/16'' (5 mm) thick poster foamboard for constructing profile CL's. There is also 1/4'' (6 mm) blue insulating foam and building insulating white styrofoam in 1/2'' (13 mm), 1'' (25 mm) and 2'' (51 mm) thicknesses. I think one can come up with some interesting possibilities, similar to the scratch building RC guys. I used a vitamin supplements bottle section for a CL radial cowl. Also with a little imagination, use of alternative paints such as PVA gyp board primer for sanding sealer, etc., one can build something that looks sharp.
I built this out of dollar tree foam ,you just pull the paper off of it and use gorrila glue.The wheels are made of the same foam and the planes foam cost me 3 bucks. I build the slow flying foam planes once in a while so i dont get burnt out building big balsa planes. joe


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RE: Why don't many people build RC airplane kits anymore? - 12/26/2012 10:41 PM   
Rob2160



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quote:

ORIGINAL: combatpigg

I agree with your timeline of key events but my question still goes unanswered.
I don't think ARFs just showed up en masse one day and then magically transformed the market's taste buds...at least not to the majority.
In fact the first ARFs [from China] were terrible but they were gobbled up like Cheezewhiz, cheap beer and Wonderbread and so began the scramble to meet demand with what we have today.
[I allowed myself to get suckered into buying a few of the early ones on impulses......and pretty slick advertising.]


Yep, gotta agree with you... the first ARFs were total crap.. underpowered and poorly designed..

I had one of the first, in the below video...   It never flew under its own power so I turned it into a slope soarer and it was totally lame in that role also.

The modern "Quality" ARFs are just awesome and fly as well as any RC plane I have seen in 34 years in this hobby



12 years later.... my first "new generation"ARF is this F-18 and this vid is one of the earliest flights...  



3 weeks later I bought a Eurofighter, this fliew great, and is even better now that I upgraded the EDF for more power.



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RE: Why don't many people build RC airplane kits anymore? - 12/26/2012 10:47 PM   
combatpigg



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Those are just awesome flyers...!


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RE: Why don't many people build RC airplane kits anymore? - 12/26/2012 10:51 PM   
Rob2160



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder

Would you like me to post a video of my planes on the ground, or would you rather come watch while we fly? I have a little trouble doing a video while I'm flying. Hands are just a little busy with the airplane and doing that pilot stuff. If you think that I'd trust Vinnie, or Karl, or Frankie with my camera, then think again.

Bill, Waco Brother #1


Easy solution...  - $40 bucks will get you one of these 

Attached it to the rim of a normal baseball cap and you can make great videos of your flights.

Like this...  it even time stamps your videos...




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RE: Why don't many people build RC airplane kits anymore? - 12/26/2012 11:22 PM   
GallopingGhostler



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quote:

ORIGINAL: joebahl I built this out of dollar tree foam, you just pull the paper off of it and use gorrila glue. The wheels are made of the same foam and the planes foam cost me 3 bucks. I build the slow flying foam planes once in a while so i don't get burnt out building big balsa planes.

Cool. Where did you get this dollar tree foam?

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RE: Why don't many people build RC airplane kits anymore? - 12/26/2012 11:25 PM   
joebahl


 

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I buy it at dollar tree stores ,they are all over the US .

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