RE: Leap of Faith - Byron P-51 Clone

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RE: Leap of Faith - Byron P-51 Clone - 4/5/2011 1:02 AM

SCALECRAFT

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ORIGINAL: Luft-Gangster

SCALECRAFT First time ever making a mold, thats why its a Leap of Faith. Did a test on a vacuum molded polystyrene part first before commiting to No I totally overlooked the key ways on this one. I am going to have to learn to practice patience. Probably why the vertical stab slipped and curled. Why polyester resin? Had it on the shelf and read that the Byron was made of polyester resin. Inexpierence. The shrink and distort, didn't know that. Moving forward I'm using Aeropoxy. What epoxy resin do you use? Wing, horizontal and vertical stab will be built up.

Don't get me wrong. Anyone that even pulls a quality fuse mold is beyond the average modeler to me. This will only lead to more and more innovative fabrications.

Key ways makes things easy. I am using west systems. I am going to try US Composites epoxy next. Its cheaper and has the same characteristics more or less.

Oh. thngs glue better to epoxy also.

Good work.

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RE: Leap of Faith - Byron P-51 Clone - 4/5/2011 1:35 AM

Luft-Gangster

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I-fly-any-and-all I'm really not that fast. Started this in Dec, joined RCU at the end of Dec. Read about how to do this in the composite section. I was really impressed with Slow Low's P-40 thread and only just decided to take that jump. Things will slow down now because I also coach HS Baseball and Umpire youth travel. Going to Cooperstown again this summer for my fourth Youth Baseball Hall of Fame ring. It keeps you young.

SCALECRAFT Thanks for the tip on the epoxy resin brands. The polyester resin was on my shelf most likely because I'm a boat person and its what you will find at the marina. Live on a chain of 7 lakes.
Couldn't resist: Those BT prints were calling me. I also started framing up the fuselage ( balsa & ply ) uses a fiberglass cowl that I plan to pull from this project as well as other glass parts needed.

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RE: Leap of Faith - Byron P-51 Clone - 4/5/2011 4:38 AM

SCALECRAFT

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Just for the sake of info.

Years ago I had the opportunity to ask Steve Hinton at the Planes of Fame museum in Chino,Ca. how the full scale laminar airflow P-51 wing performed at low speeds. he said it was not very forgiving at low speeds.

I have the BT 69"span P-51D glass fuse full kit in storage. It"s really is one of the finest P-51's out there.

Note one thing about such a wing design. The leading edge section is thinner than a typical RC P-51 model wing and the BT kit requires the unitracts ultra low profile retracts. The retracts also put the strut out in front of the retracts frame, positioning the tires way forward of the LE. Very scale. Nose overs minimized.

Consider that as you build you wing design.

Good luck

Steve

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RE: Leap of Faith - Byron P-51 Clone - 4/5/2011 6:22 AM

Luft-Gangster

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Steve Thanks for the heads up. Looking at the print, the gear mount on parallel hardwood rails. I deleted that and made a modification to accept the Robart gear from my TF giant. 1/4" plywood plate mounted on the same angle as the hardwood rails. reinforced both adjacent ribs for support. This should do the trick. The wing has washout tabs. been very careful sheeting on one side making sure my wings stayed twisted with the tabbed washout. That should help some at lower air speeds. Don't want a tip stall. That BT 69" is a keeper. I only have the prints but am really impressed with them. I have the Jim Meister Master Scale P-51 onion skin coppies - 8 pages. ( really like that tracing table. ) Impressive, lots of nice detail, but you can't scratch build from them. ( nice isometric views of assemblies of pieces not shown on the prints). A friend has one. Bought it already framed up. His is a lead slead, but great lines.

Made the wing using 1/8" ply for the ribs lightened up with cutouts. Main Spars are spruce (home depot 1"x6' fencing boards selected for absense of knots, ripped down to 3/8x3/8 on my table saw) rear spars are same material 1/4x1/4 sheeted with 3/32 balsa. Main spar brace extended one extra rib on each side. Leading edge is spruce 1/4x1/2 with bulsa above and below. Definatly not for 3D.
Still have to make ailerons, flaps , hard points for bomb or drop tank and set up servo's and air for retracts. Lots to do.

Horizontal stab - same as print but increased the material size. (orig print 69" enlarged to 85.5")

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RE: Leap of Faith - Byron P-51 Clone - 4/5/2011 2:36 PM

SCALECRAFT

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Reminds me of the good ol days, when we used to build way more.

Nice work. But your shop is too clean!. Or maybe mine is not so clean?

Steve

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RE: Leap of Faith - Byron P-51 Clone - 4/6/2011 2:43 AM

Rick F

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luft-gangster:
Just a note about your build . If you know of aerotech models exact 1/5 scale P-51 Mustang from Minneapolis .As of 2008 they no longer mak the planes anymore but do supply parts . That airplane had the laminaire flo wing and it flies very well with no problems.

Rick F

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RE: Leap of Faith - Byron P-51 Clone - 4/6/2011 3:44 AM

Luft-Gangster

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Rick F Thanks for the info. Never had the opertunity to examine the Aerotech. I have been looking at the sliding canopy option that they have for my next edition. Need to make another fuselage mold anyway. Caused some serious damage to the molds in my hast to pull the first copy on this one.

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RE: Leap of Faith - Byron P-51 Clone - 4/6/2011 2:52 PM

hbs

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I just received my replacement 2 piece canopy for the Byron P-51 I am building. Actually ordered it and received it from Iron Bay. For future reference

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RE: Leap of Faith - Byron P-51 Clone - 4/6/2011 6:41 PM

Luft-Gangster

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hbs - I have never seen the 2 piece canopy from Iron Bay. What did they charge for it and how does it look? Can you post a picture?
Thanks
Leroy

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RE: Leap of Faith - Byron P-51 Clone - 4/6/2011 9:51 PM

SCALECRAFT

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Luft-Gangster

Rick F Thanks for the info. Never had the opertunity to examine the Aerotech. I have been looking at the sliding canopy option that they have for my next edition. Need to make another fuselage mold anyway. Caused some serious damage to the molds in my hast to pull the first copy on this one.

If this is a mold you plan on pulling many fuses out of, you may want to consider the Devcon aluminum mixed epoxy for a surface coat. It is not chaep, but will hold up to many trims/abuses.

Last time I found it at Graingers.

My 109F molds are made out of that one cause I really like the 109.

Steve

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RE: Leap of Faith - Byron P-51 Clone - 4/6/2011 11:02 PM

hbs

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Here are photos ..... $ 33.00 plus shipping ........ .008 thick material

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RE: Leap of Faith - Byron P-51 Clone - 4/7/2011 12:47 AM

Luft-Gangster

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SCALECRAFT Thanks for the info on the Devcon aluminum epoxy, I looked at that and agree its very expensive. Granger has an outlet here in Ann Arbor. Don't plan on spending that much on a Sport Scale aircraft. Which 109 do you have? and what size? I like the Emil, Battle of Brittan and all that.

hbs Thanks for the pics and info. I can rest easy now knowing I can still get parts. Iron Bay has been very clear that other things ( Gov't Contracts ) have their priority. Can't blame them, they are a for profit business and rescued the Byron molds from being scrapped.

Currently working on setting up to make molds on the belly scoop and the chin cowl.

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RE: Leap of Faith - Byron P-51 Clone - 4/7/2011 2:06 AM

hbs

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I compliment you on your efforts. This is a great project. Had typo on canopy thickness, it is .08 of inch............... The lady I spoke to at Iron Bay said they operate out of two locations and only
answer phone at one. She indicated they had many replacement parts for most of their warbirds. Good luck and I'll be following your progress. Hope to be flying mine in a couple of months.

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RE: Leap of Faith - Byron P-51 Clone - 4/7/2011 3:33 AM

SCALECRAFT

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Luft-Gangster

SCALECRAFT Thanks for the info on the Devcon aluminum epoxy, I looked at that and agree its very expensive. Granger has an outlet here in Ann Arbor. Don't plan on spending that much on a Sport Scale aircraft. Which 109 do you have? and what size? I like the Emil, Battle of Brittan and all that.

hbs Thanks for the pics and info. I can rest easy now knowing I can still get parts. Iron Bay has been very clear that other things ( Gov't Contracts ) have their priority. Can't blame them, they are a for profit business and rescued the Byron molds from being scrapped.

Currently working on setting up to make molds on the belly scoop and the chin cowl.

The 109 is actually one of our models from the early 1990's. It has a 48" wing span. We like the Ok model Co, Pilot series warbird size of the late 80's and early 90's. We had every one of them.

We molded the Zero, Hurricane, FW 190A, made a 190D9 it also. I think that was it in the Pilot size stuff? All composite of course. We also have a all composite 63" span Typhoon, 54" span Corsair, 68" span Spitfire MKII (I think).

I'm looking to mold some obsolete Jet in the next few months as well now since EDF's are pretty efficient.

Steve

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RE: Leap of Faith - Byron P-51 Clone - 4/7/2011 3:07 PM

JeffH

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Luft-Gangster

hbs - I have never seen the 2 piece canopy from Iron Bay. What did they charge for it and how does it look? Can you post a picture?
Thanks
Leroy

I think they changed it when they went to the plugin wing design. The radio was accessed through a removable cockpit on those kits. I got my canopy straight from Iron Bay last year with no problems at all.

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RE: Leap of Faith - Byron P-51 Clone - 4/7/2011 6:40 PM

Slow Low

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SCALECRAFT

One question though. I did not see any key ways in your parting board. Did you put them? And also, why did you use polyester resin on the mold? In about 2-3 years they will shrink and maybe distort..
A cheaper epoxy resin would have been better for longevity and durability.

Steve

First off - nice job on your first mould! (I think you even learned a couple of things...always a good thing)

Steve mentioned key ways for registering one half of the mould to the other and I see you learned a lesson in patience: if you put the plug back into the mould and bolt it up, you can run an angle grinder around the outside perimeter of the mould. Then when you join the next one, you can just line them up by getting the outside flanges flush to one another.

On another note - I would also recommend Aeropoxy PT1414 for a surface coat - it's reasonably priced by the gallon and it's impregnated with silicon carbide for durability.

Looking forward to following along....I'm subbed!

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RE: Leap of Faith - Byron P-51 Clone - 4/7/2011 7:23 PM

Luft-Gangster

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SCALECRAFT That 109 looks sweet, but too small for my taste.

JeffH - Thanks for the info. Mine is the old 1 pc wing from 1985.

Slow Low - Thanks again for your guidance. Aeropoxy PT1414 is on my shopping list. The first fuselage molds are too thin and suffered some damage. Rather than repair, I'm planning a redo using aeropoxy instead of polyester resin. First though, I'm going to do some smaller ones. ie belly scoop and cowl scoop, and bomb / fuel tank racks. But first - I'm off to baseball practice.

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RE: Leap of Faith - Byron P-51 Clone - 4/7/2011 7:40 PM

Dash7ATP

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[ The first fuselage molds are too thin and suffered some damage. [/quote]

This will become a very informative thread, as it sure is starting off that way!

Many years ago ( the early sixties) I was in the NASA Apprentice school at Langley Field , VA. I was lucky enough to be placed in the Dynamic Model Shop where we built models for one of the large tunnels. Most of our models were large and had fiberglass fuselage and wing skins. Making the molds for those was probably the most valuable lesson I learned while there. Your comment on thin skins was a lesson well learned. Our molds were taken from wood plugs which we had to make. Your glass fuselage is just as good or better!

To make our molds rigid and reusable, we made them thick. Once the first gell coat layer was curing, a layer of heavy cloth was applied over that, followed up by a thick heavy weave roving. The final thickness was well over a quarter inch thick. Once this had cured, a frame of plywood was epoxied to this to give it some feet to set on when it was turned over. This provided a solid, rigid mold in which to work. As has already been mentioned, keys between the upper and lower halfs need to be drilled prior to seperation of the two halfs.

Yes, this process makes a large heavy mold, but it will (should) last a long time and can be used many times if care is taken to properly prepare it with mold release for each use.

I'm looking forward to your progress in this project, and will "stay tuned".

Dash

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RE: Leap of Faith - Byron P-51 Clone - 4/7/2011 8:03 PM

Slow Low

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As a rule of thumb regarding mould thickness, I generally use 3-5 times the intended part layup. For something like this I would use the following...

toolcoat
1 layer light cloth to conform to toolcoat - 1/2 or 3/4 oz/ft^2
1 layer continuous strand (chopped strand has a binder that will not work with epoxies) veil cloth to prevent the heavier weaves from showing through the toolcoat over time

8 layers heavier cloth - 9 oz/ft^2

I like the recommendation of reinforcement, but I typically don't unless the mould is over 36" in length.

...just my 2 cents worth - hope it's some help

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RE: Leap of Faith - Byron P-51 Clone - 4/8/2011 4:04 AM

SCALECRAFT

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Slow Low

As a rule of thumb regarding mould thickness, I generally use 3-5 times the intended part layup. For something like this I would use the following...

toolcoat
1 layer light cloth to conform to toolcoat - 1/2 or 3/4 oz/ft^2
1 layer continuous strand (chopped strand has a binder that will not work with epoxies) veil cloth to prevent the heavier weaves from showing through the toolcoat over time

8 layers heavier cloth - 9 oz/ft^2

I like the recommendation of reinforcement, but I typically don't unless the mould is over 36'' in length.

...just my 2 cents worth - hope it's some help

Slow, good call on the light veil cloth to prevent weave showing in parts. I believe this mold here may be better than the molds we make with all this info from everyone. Also, if you put the plug back in the mold and clamp it, you can drill alignment holes and put bolts though them. So keep the thin mold as a drone.

But that's good. It raises the bar and benefit all that compete to be the best.

Steve

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RE: Leap of Faith - Byron P-51 Clone - 4/8/2011 5:21 AM

Luft-Gangster

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Well, back at it. Baseball wore me out tonight, so I won't get much done on the plane. But I am focusing on patience. Being 60 and almost keeping up with 15-18 year olds is not a bad thing. Last year I could beat 10 of the 15 players on the hill ( 30yds uphill race ) not bad for an old fart.

Dash - NASA dynamic model shop - what a dream job! great info, THANKS.

Slow Low - Once again, you're right there with great advice. I will use the reinforcement because this baby is I beleive 76" nose to tail.

SCALECRAFT - drill alignment, I like ( read that before somewhere ). In my notes now. Thanks again.

Did'nt want to do alot tonight so, because I can't seem to stay on one project all the time untill finished. I set up my Dave Platt P-51 cowl and belly scoop for the same mold treatment. Might as well kill two birds with one stone while I playing with resin and cloth.

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RE: Leap of Faith - Byron P-51 Clone - 4/8/2011 2:46 PM

SCALECRAFT

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Luft

Problem is, all models start to look like plugs first, then flying models.

A double edged sword.

Steve

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RE: Leap of Faith - Byron P-51 Clone - 4/10/2011 6:48 AM

Luft-Gangster

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Waxed the belly and chin scoop with carnauba wax several times ( mold release ). Mixed up my tool epoxy and added red jellcoat color to it. Applied to parts and now have to wait. The tool epoxy I used cures in 24 - 48 hours based on ambient temp. ( Michigan, spring - I'm expecting 48 hrs ). Now my interest is really up on Slow Low's suggestion of Aeropoxy PT1414 for the jell coat. I will be investigating the cure time on that for sure before doing this again. Patience is golden. Just googled aeropoxy PT1414 - cure time = 30 - 35 min. It's on order.

SCALECRAFT You're right, I am visualizing plugs in all my airplanes.

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RE: Leap of Faith - Byron P-51 Clone - 4/10/2011 2:06 PM

Dash7ATP

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Luft-

A few more thoughts, for what they are worth. I'm thinking that on a large mold, a thirty minute resin might tend to rush you a little, unless you can work pretty fast. Keep that in mind when you start to use it. When you mix it up, you might consider pouring the mixture in an aluminum pie plate to spread it out to help keep the heat from building up. Epoxy or poly resin in a pot will go off much faster due to the heat buildup once the reaction starts. This is a trick I saw at a friends shop. He is a custom fishing rod builder and uses a lot of Epoxy to finish rods. His pie plate is now about an inch think from old resin that has cured.

One other thing I haven't seen mentioned here yet. That is the use of PVA mold release, although it appears you may be using it. If not, you should probably get some. You should spray several coats over the waxed mold to ensure that it doesn't get stuck on the male form, Also use it in the mold when you do the fuselage part you're making. It's usually green and dries very smooth (and thin). It can be washed off with water or alcohol if neccessary, but it usually just peels off. Several sprayed coats can save you a lot of grief.

Dash

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RE: Leap of Faith - Byron P-51 Clone - 4/10/2011 5:32 PM

darren763

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I'll second that on the PVA...Its like cheap insurance to prevent sticking. Good luck.

Darren

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