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RE: GSP Katana 72"...DETAILED BUILD and 3D FLIGHT REPORT - 11/25/2003 5:39 PM   
Dangerous Dan



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Status: offline 		MDS,
I am confused on the whole tape thing, can you post a pic. I also used CA type hinges, but I sealed all of the surfaces with transparent monocoat.

TT2, Simon and others,
I have read some other threads on the OS 1.60/Perry combo. It seems that the general consinsis that the low speed needle needs to be turned in about one turn from the factory setting, and the high speed needles final position is only 3/4 to 1 turn out. I admit I should have broke this engine on the stans w/o the pump this would have made life easier, but it is too late for hindsite now. I was trying to start the engine with the HS needle out 2 1/2 turns(from OS 160 manual) and the pump turned almost all the way in. I installed a new pump(I destroyed the old one trying to take it appart...$30 mistake), I will turn the low speed needle 1 turn in and start with the high speed needle out one turn and see how this works. If I am still too rich I will then try the bypass.

How much fuel do I need to run through this engine at a slightly rich setting before, I do the final adjustments to the needle valve?

TT2 what was your final HS needle valve setting? also how would you go about setting the low speed needle valve?

Thanks

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RE: GSP Katana 72"...DETAILED BUILD and 3D FLIGHT REPORT - 11/25/2003 5:56 PM   
Brains



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Status: offline 		Hi guys i have just brought a cheap kantana a member in this forum crashed it but the damage was'nt to bad and after he said he could'nt be bothered to repair it so we have got it all back together now and all repaired...il get pics later but il atatch pics of the damage...
it has a mvvs 160... can wait to fly it

heres the pics of the damage but like i said its all back together now just got to install gear il probs do that tonight

Dean

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RE: GSP Katana 72"...DETAILED BUILD and 3D FLIGHT REPORT - 11/25/2003 6:04 PM   
Dangerous Dan



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Status: offline 		CF prop
MVVS 160
White Strypes below the wings
in the UK

Simon Please dont tell me this was your Katana .

< Message edited by dntmn -- 11/25/2003 3:04:43 PM >

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RE: GSP Katana 72"...DETAILED BUILD and 3D FLIGHT REPORT - 11/25/2003 8:13 PM   
mithrandir



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Status: offline 		OK.. I will try to get a snap posted tonight of what the stuff looks like... really not very exciting, but the effect was amazing... I am an aerospace engineer and usually when I try to explain to people how FICKLE air and fluid flow is, they think I am crazy... this "TAPE" incident has opened a few eyes at my local club...

mds

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RE: GSP Katana 72"...DETAILED BUILD and 3D FLIGHT REPORT - 11/25/2003 8:38 PM   
Simon Jones



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Status: offline 		Sorry Dan.

I have to put my hand up to this one.

I had a great session with it one week and was on a real high after all the problems I had. Dean flew it at the same time and got on with it really we'll. He's only young and needs all the help he can get - he'll love that. He was on about getting one after flying mine.

The next week I went to the patch ready for another great flight. I even juiced up the smoke and had the video camera with me. I was looking forward to seeing what the smoke looked like in a prop hang and hoping to video it. I thought I'd have a quick spin before any video. I fired up and thought I needed to tweek the mixture. Had a quick twiddle and thought I was there (I hate having to touch the idle mixtre after it's set). I went up and all seemed well. About half way through the flight I went into a fairly low prop hang that resulted in a flame out at about 35 feet. I just didn't have the height to get it flying properly as it stalled out downwind. I managed to minimise the damage to a ripped out undercarrage mounting and a slightly cracked left wing.

After all I'd been through with this model I was gutted, even though it was my fault for not being more thorough in checking the new settings and I guess I should have been a little more subdued in that first flight of the day. I knew dean wanted one and his dad, Nigel, is pretty handy on the building board so I called him and asked if he wanted it at a bargan price. He got the motor, airframe and smoke for less than the cost of an airframe alone, and I recon there is less work to repair than to build from the kit, especially as I'd strengthened the wings etc.

I guess after all I'd been through I had given up on this one. I'm not sure if it's the right choice. Maybe if the manufacturer fixes the wing problem I might build another one day but time for parstures new, although I'll be keeping an eye on what's happening here.

Any good ideas for a next toy? Must 3d, should require minimum modification, and should work well with a standard set up - no faffing around.

Cheers.


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RE: GSP Katana 72"...DETAILED BUILD and 3D FLIGHT REPORT - 11/25/2003 8:52 PM   
cstevec



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Status: offline 		Simon, sorry to hear about your bad luck with the Katana . You are over there where the infamous "Capiche" lives. I know theyy are not ARTF's but everything indicates that they will fly very well and build very easily. Since they are about to release the 140 version of that plane I think I would look very hard at it for my next plane if I were you. I am hoping to be able to get my hands on one of the kits myself by having it purchased over there and then shipped here to the states.

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RE: GSP Katana 72"...DETAILED BUILD and 3D FLIGHT REPORT - 11/25/2003 9:39 PM   
Dangerous Dan



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Status: offline 		Simon,
I too am very sad to hear about your Katana . At least the sheep are ok. The Newest runs of the Katana 140 kits from CMP, has the wing problem fixed. They replaced the balsa webbing with light ply. They will also be releasing an extra 300 and a Yak, which is about the same size of the Katana and also have the removable canopy Mod. If you are interested in going to gas Wild Hare RC Has a 38% Edge (ARF) set up for a 50cc Gasser. Now that you have it all figured out, is there a chance you will build a second Katana ?

Dan

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< Message edited by dntmn -- 11/25/2003 6:41:20 PM >

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RE: GSP Katana 72"...DETAILED BUILD and 3D FLIGHT REPORT - 11/26/2003 7:24 AM   
bn120



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Status: offline 		DNTMN where did you find out about the new models and how much will they be? will the new katana have the canopy hatch as well?
38% on a 50cc gas? I could see 28 %

Darin


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RE: GSP Katana 72"...DETAILED BUILD and 3D FLIGHT REPORT - 11/26/2003 9:16 AM   
mithrandir



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Status: offline 		OK guys... attached are some snaps of the Zig-Zag tape I used. It is placed top and bottom at the same station. The tape is approximatley .060" thick. What I really want is a YAK 55.. way better overall configuration then the others... lots of verical area below the fuselage, near top-bottom symetry 'cept for the fin! big flippers!! LOL

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RE: GSP Katana 72"...DETAILED BUILD and 3D FLIGHT REPORT - 11/26/2003 1:04 PM   
Simon Jones



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Status: offline 		Cheers Guys.

There is another Katana in the local shop but I think it's time to move on. Both the models Dan posted look good. I've also been watching a thread on the Extreme Yak, looks sweet, but probably not available over here. I'll find out whether the two that Dan mentioned are coming over to the uk.

The Capiche is probably a no no. Looks like a good model but I will never acquire sufficient domestic credit to build a model from scratch, added to which I'm not very good at it. Too impatient.

I'll let you know what I can find out.

sj.


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RE: GSP <span class= - 11/27/2003 12:28 AM   
rsrogers



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Status: offline 		Has any one bought a new Katana lately? Do they still have the wing shear webing problem??

Thanks,
Steve

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RE: GSP <span class= - 11/27/2003 2:19 AM   
Brains



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Status: offline 		Hi Guys its finished and nearly ready to go now...just gota put servos in wings and set it all up and get my cowl sorted a mates repairing cowl..

heres a picture..

Dean

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RE: GSP <span class= - 11/27/2003 2:41 AM   
inter


 

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Status: offline 		This must be very pretty hard on you Simon (I know how I'd feel )

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RE: GSP <span class= - 11/27/2003 2:02 PM   
Simon Jones



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Status: offline 		You've got to be philisophical about these things.

It was a great model to fly, which is why Dean was so eager to have it, but it just caused me too much grief.

The tough bit is that I've probably ironed out all the problems now and Dean will, hopefully, have a real easy time of it. Good luck to him. No doubt I'll question my decision to sell it when I see it fly. After I'd agreed to sell it I looked at it again and realised that there was far less work than I'd origionally thought, but I guess it wan't meant to stay in my hangar.

I have a quater scale Sukhoi Su31 hanging in the local shop for sale which is a great piece of kit but was underpowered for my liking with a pumped OS 120 surpass. I have been considering bringing it home and putting a decent motor in it. I also quite fancy moving on to gas power. I have all the radio gear out of the Katana so I only have to buy the airframe and engine. The trouble is while you guys in the USA have these sorts of models every where you look, the Katana is a big model over here for the average sports flyer. So getting decent large 3D models is difficult here, particularly if you want to go to gas power. I love the new H9 Ultimate, which is available over here but it is way too expensive. It would cost some where in the region of five to six thousand dollars to put that together over here. Best get that Lottery ticket.

I'll have to get on and search the forum for some other ideas. I have asked the uk importer if they will be getting in the models that Dan posted and I'm waiting for a reply. Any other ideas? I guess I just live on the wrong side of the pond. I would order one from the US but what are the chances of it arriving without damage.

Dan have you made any progress on the tuning/fuel system front yet? Will you be ready to fly on Sunday?

sj.


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RE: GSP <span class= - 11/27/2003 9:05 PM   
Brains



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Status: offline 		it was a fair old bit of damage took 4 evenings to repair.Dad said he would'nt do it againhe'd get a new one...but now its done we are well happy...

Thanks Si
Dean


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RE: GSP <span class= - 11/27/2003 10:09 PM   
Simon Jones



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Status: offline 		I've had a response from Flair (the uk importer of the Katana ). They are currently looking to test the two new models that Dan posted (yes I have offered my excellent evaluation services to spare them the trouble) and expect them to be available in the new year all being well.

Still considering some other options though.

sj.


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RE: GSP <span class= - 12/1/2003 9:39 AM   
mithrandir



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Status: offline 		Well guys, I have "HARRIER'd" my plane to the groung for the first time today. I did about 50 low passes working up the nerve to land from this attitude. I waited until most everyone was gone, and last flight of the day, (Didn't wanna ding a prop early on!!). I must say that at touch down, from a harrier, (Deep stall), it was quite the uneventful experiance. Once an acceptable sink rate is established, it sets down nicely with the tail wheel hitting about 6 inches before the mains! I did this about 7 or 8 times, and even had a flying buddy witness it!! Once you do the ZIG-ZAG tape thing, and get the rocking down to a manageable level, this plane is easier to "Harrier" then a chopper is to hover. Can we post "MPEG" on this forum like we can pictures?? In fact, the coolest way to enter a harrier is from a vertical down line, or just straight'n out an upright spin. (I got it to flat spin both ways, or should I say do a harrier with a high yaw rate in both directions?!?!?) This plane truly flies bigger and lighter then it really is. Mine again is about 12.3 pounds with a full tank, 20 ounces! I will say that I find value in triple rates with this plane. And it definitely flies better as the gas burns off, eventually I will replace the 20 ounce/25 minute tank with a 14 ounce/17 minute tank!!
What about HITEC digi-servos? I should prob'ly search forums I guess...

If I can figure out how to post mpegs, I will put a few in for you guys to look at. Nothing like harriering down to 4 feet, and finishing it off with a torque roll!!!

Have fun all

< Message edited by mithrandir -- 1/21/2004 11:04:17 PM >

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RE: GSP <span class= - 12/1/2003 9:45 AM   
TT2



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Status: offline 		Flew the Katana again today and am getting it figured out a little more. Added 1/2 oz of tailweight to try to get the CG back a little more in an effort to increase the 3D performance. Taped some more weight (bungee cord end) on before the third flight but the tape didn't hold. Flight performance keeps getting better with farther aft CG...flat spins are flatter, harriers are easier, etc. I can't seem to hold it in a torque roll for very long...I'm probably over-controlling it but I might have a thrust line issue. A few more trips to the field should have it straightened out. I am thinking of adding some sort of battery placement system so that I can easily reposition the battery at the field to adjust the CG. Since the entire floor of the fuselage is vacant rear of the wing tube, I might try to leverage the space available.

I found that harriers needed to be ENTERED with this plane...if you just chop the throttle and gradually add elevator the wing will continue to 'fly' instead of being stalled. I enter the harrier by doing a quick 1/2 wall at moderate speed (1/4 throttle or so). Then the wing will stall nicely and you can hold nearly full up elevator while the plane continues forward at about 30 degrees nose high attitude. Adding more elevator will coax the plane out of a harrier and into a hover. The wing rock isn't uncontrollably severe, but it IS there. I will add a bit more spoileron the next time out to see what effect it has. Right now I have elevator to spoilerons mixed at 25%.

The OS 1.60fx / Perry VP30 pump / BCM pitts muffler is performing flawlessly. I could probably go a bit leaner with the high end, but it's running like a top throughout the rpm range. Little if any midrange sputter, and if there is any I'm sure that by leaning it a bit more it would be completely gone. The engine is turning the Mezjlik 18x6 at 9300 rpm and idles at 1600 rpm. I can idle the engine for over thirty seconds then jam the throttle forward and it spools up instantly without ANY hesitation. I'm very happy with it...the engine has more than enough power for this airframe...while it won't ROCKET out of a hover like some of my other planes, it certainly has the power to pull out nicely. I'm sure that the performance will only increase with more experimentation. I might try using a larger muffler...I've heard that the BCM muffler for the OS BGX has significantly larger internal volume and will bolt right to the OS 1.60fx.

The top hatch mod is worth doing even if it took twice as long. Being able to access both springs makes field assembly a simple task instead of the tedious chore it used to be.

I really screwed up today. When I was getting ready to take the plane apart after flying, I noticed that I had forgotten to screw in the WING BOLTS! I had attached the springs but there was nothing else holding the wings on the plane! I had put the plane through violent blenders, snaps, etc. and apparently the springs were enough to keep the wings on! DUH! I guess everyone gets lucky once in awhile...

mithrandir: Wanna sell me some of that zig-zag tape? I don't feel like buying an entire roll of the stuff. Also, if you don't have a website I can upload the MPEG to one of mine then provide a link to it. Lemme know.

-Tom

< Message edited by TT2 -- 12/1/2003 1:53:39 AM >

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RE: GSP <span class= - 12/1/2003 12:30 PM   
mithrandir



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Status: offline 		TT2....... I kind of have a limited supply unless I spring the big buck$ myself. email me at mithrandir@verizon.net and I will send you 4 feet, 1 foot per wing, top'n'bottom. It is stuff I got from a repaired UAV wing, so I will apply new "STICKY" to it so you need only peel off the backing and apply. Surface must be absolutely oil free or this stuff will come off. I will convert video to mpeg tomarrow. I have access to an FTP site that is web based, easy to use for sending LARGE files.

TT2... is your email in your profile?

thanks

mds

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RE: GSP <span class= - 12/1/2003 7:30 PM   
TT2



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Status: offline 		Thanks MDS, I sent you an email.

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RE: GSP <span class= - 12/2/2003 6:42 PM   
Dangerous Dan



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Status: offline 		test

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RE: GSP <span class= - 12/2/2003 6:46 PM   
Dangerous Dan



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Status: offline 		Simon,

I have not had a chance to mess with the engine, I crashed(see pic)


The planes I posted earlier have not been released yet they should be avalable this month


I still dont get the zig-zag tape, can somebody explain it is ok to get technical

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< Message edited by dntmn -- 12/2/2003 3:47:39 PM >

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RE: GSP <span class= - 12/2/2003 11:13 PM   
Brains



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Status: offline 		Hi Boys... I flown my katana on sunday and it went very well...i did'nt get no flying pics as i was getting engine running right and stuff first... i did'nt use the recomended throws i set it up myself and had lots of movement...i tested my stall speed and it was'nt to bad...
all i have is a picture of it on the floor..next time i fly it i will have flying pictures...

Dean

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RE: GSP <span class= - 12/3/2003 12:13 PM   
Simon Jones



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Status: offline 		Dan you had me worried there. For a moment I thought you meant the plane.

Joking aside I hope you're ok, looks like the crumple zones did their thing with the drivers dore open. You (or the other driver) did a comprehensive job though as I can't tell what it was, looks a bit like a VW Passat from the dangling grill.

when you get back to the Katana just make sure you get the engine running dialed before taking to the air. You have been very patient with this project so far so don't rush it on th ehome straight. Take it from me a flame out at low altitude with the wrong attitude is no fun. After all how often does a motor die when your level and into wind with enough height for a nice landing circuit? For me never.

As for the tape, someone probably has a better explanation than me. I thought this was bing used as a turbulator. This basically turbulates the airflow over the end of the wing and in theory helps to prevent a tip stall. I'm not sure why or whether it needs to be a zig zag though. As I understand it from glider theory a straight edge turbulator should also work. I would suspect that a build up of a couple of layers of trim tape to give a step of about .75mm - 1mm would probably work. There might be a bit more about this on the glider forum, but I haven't looked. I would question whether the turbulator should be applied to the underside of the wing. This would help with stall in the inverted position but may not be as helpful in the upright as just a top turbulator. I would expect the lower turbulator to stop that section of wing from producing any where near it normal levels of lift and with higher drag. Just think about your flow over the wing. We want fast flowing over the top by virtue of the dist ance the air has to travel and clean easy movement over the under side so the air doesn't have to travel as fast. Turbulate the bottom laminar flow and you might be in a position of very similar flow over top and bottom. This differes from a symetrical sction because the nature of the turbulent flow means that angle of attack is not as relevant any longer unless the angles are high (Oh - isn't that a harrier?).

The trouble with flight theory is that anything you think you can prove often has a converse argument to dis-prove it. That in part is probably why it facinates so many of us. I'm sure that any argument against my ramblings is therefore equally valid.

Another trick to help prevent stalling is to build some washout into the wing. On an ARTF this can be done by applying some pressure to bend up the outter tip of each aileron whilst applying heat to the film to try to shrink the twist in. Personally I don't tend to bother unless it's a slow flying glider. With power you can get out of the tip stall with the addition of power so it isn't as critical in my book.

I work on the theory that if you can't prop the wing up with the ailerons you need to stop woosing about and get some decent throws on those control surfaces. I personally fly on full rates for the whole flight, I just use norm rates for the first few test flights. If you've flown heli's you'll be use to constant minute adjustments and this help to smooth your high rate flying. It's a bit like a mega powerful car or one with awsome brakes or handling. You won't use all the performance very often but it's always there to get you out of trouble when you need it.

I'll be interested to hear some of the other explanations of the tape.

By the way has anyone thought about trying wing fences on the wing tips? It worked for the 747 400, apparently those tip fences save a bob or two on the fuel bill, just by moving the tip turbulance out off of the lifting serface. Surpising that the gain is greater than the increase in drag and weight.

Dan When do you think you'll be flying next now? Good luck when you get there.

sj.


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RE: GSP <span class= - 12/3/2003 3:58 PM   
Dangerous Dan



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Status: offline 		Simon,
It was a Toyota Corolla S model

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